NXT TakeOver Toronto/WWE Survivor Series Weekend

[Coffey]

Yeah anyone who thinks this is the worst Survivor Series ever didn't have to suffer through 1994 - 1998 although 1996 was really good

 

Please Kevin Owens can lose a hundred times in a row and would still be a better champ than Jack Swagger, Dolph Ziggler, or Rey Mysterio Jr. Hell he is a better champion than the New Day right now

 

Wait, was Survivor Series 1994 the one with guest ring enforcer Chuck Norris? Cause that kicked ass. It also had the Bret Hart -vs- Bob Backlund WWF Title match with the AWESOME post-match promo from Backlund AND the Lawler & midgets Vs. Doink & midgets match which might be my favorite comedy match ever.

 

NO WAY that show was worse than this one. Fuck, that might be my favorite Survivor Series.

[Parties]

Actually, now that I think about it, the best current options to come in and squash Brock like that would probably be Nakamura or Joe. But again, would an arena - even a favorable crowd like Toronto - actually buy it the way they buy Goldberg?

[JerryvonKramer]

For a professor, you've been a hot take machine lately.

And yet none of my degrees can help me make any sense of what this sentence is supposed to mean.

 

There have been other shitty Survivor Series, but did any of them make less sense than this one? Did any of them actively bury talent and top stars with quite the same relish?

 

I mean say what you want about the Million Dollar Corporation, at least there was never any doubt that they were the bad guys.

[stro]

I'll definitely never forget that main event. Loved it as a moment. Booking-wise it may have been incredibly stupid, but judging a moment according to meta-concerns seems rather ass-backwards and joyless to me.

 

Here's the thing: Beating Brock won't help anyone. They booked themselves into a corner with Brock a long time ago. There's maybe one or two people on the roster that could beat Brock and not have a backlash against them for being over pushed, and they don't need the win anyway. Do you really think Braun or Cass or Big E or whoever beating Brock is actually going to do anything for them? Of course not, because Brock is just going to vanish for 3-6 months and come back and still be a way bigger attraction even if he loses every match.

 

So why not have him lose in such a crazy and shocking fashion to a dude who hasn't even been on TV for 12 years and is the most over guy on the roster and is known for winning in 30 seconds, AND is doing it because he wants to be a good role model for his fans and family? It was a great moment. Booking wise, Brock will be Brock no matter what. A full time talent beating him will be booked into oblivion in the following 3 months anyway. Goldberg squashing Brock has way more impact than anyone on the roster beating him in a normal match.

[BrianB]

 

For a professor, you've been a hot take machine lately.

And yet none of my degrees can help me make any sense of what this sentence is supposed to mean.

 

There have been other shitty Survivor Series, but did any of them make less sense than this one? Did any of them actively bury talent and top stars with quite the same relish?

 

I mean say what you want about the Million Dollar Corporation, at least there was never any doubt that they were the bad guys.

 

 

Might be a regional difference then, since I'm across the pond, or maybe intentional obtuseness. It means you've been extra 'get off my lawn' gimmicky in tone and sports radio talk-y. Recency bias, either toward something being amazing (see Sasha vs. Charlotte HIAC) or shitty (see this PPV.) edit: additionally, over here, the pick a side and just argue it passionately started to go out of fashion with academics over here circa 2010. Now, it's more attuned to back and forth debate and counterarguments and being more measured.

 

I don't get why would expect a strong face vs. heel dynamic to a show that is essentially brand vs. brand, and they want you to watch both brands, and, if anything, Brock has been the heel to this Goldberg feud. I was confused at what happened in this show, and I wonder if it will be like this past year's wrestlemania where it's legacy was jsut defy predictions and advance a few storylines but mostly just be an outlier show. However, that doesn't make it the worst survivor series show of all time in 30 years. Survivor Series is notorious as a treading water or weak big 4 ppv.

[Jimmy James]

I rewatched Clash X (the show where the Horsemen turned heel midway through) before this show and I don't know which one had more perplexing booking.

[JerryvonKramer]

Well agree or disagree, I thought the show sucked. Best match was Zayn vs Miz at 3.5 which is a poor return for a three hour show, any promotion, any era.

 

Brand vs brand is a fucking stupid idea that no one can get emotionally invested in. Maybe if it was Nintendo vs. Sega at the height of kids arguing about Mario and Sonic, or something like McDonalds vs. Burger King, or whatever, but Raw vs Smackdown is stupid.

 

Sasha and Charlotte were hotter than hell last ppv, and now they are tagging and Sasha is taking a random pin right in the middle of a match? This big monster heel is kicking ass and everyone is begging off her and she ... taps out?

 

All the biggest stars in the company assemble in one match and ... Shane McMahon is in there and actually gets in offense and has comeback moments and is given two or three of the biggest spots of the night? And is booked to be the babyface and cheered, alongside Styles, and then moments later we are meant to cheer the same guy they were just fighting (Roman) against two heels (one of whom, Bray, got a special babyface entrance) .... and then he goes and loses anyway?

 

Oh and while we're at it, let's get the entire roster to wear t-shirts to make them look like jobbers. Great idea yeah.

 

I mean what the fuck? It was a mess. Total crap.

[stro]

What are you talking about? The crowd was hot the entire show and was way more invested in SD vs Raw than they would have been in a weak ass 10 man tag from either show. Everyone was consistent in their character despite being on mixed teams against mixed teams. The SD vs Raw SS matches were the best SS matches of the 2000s, too, and those were also a mix of heels and faces.

 

Shane went toe to toe with Taker at Wrestlemania. He's also ALWAYS been treated like a real talent and legitimate threat against top stars going back to 2001, and now he's in far better shape and is actually punching people in the face constantly. You're supposed to cheer for who you like or which side you like more in SD vs Raw matches. It isn't about which team is the heel or face team. The main point of them is seeing interactions and moments you wouldn't ever normally get, like Dean and AJ teaming up, or a Shield reunion, or champ vs champ, etc etc.

[JerryvonKramer]

Well you guys can argue it out, because I couldn't give less of a shit.

 

I'll be back for the next ppv, or cancelling the network again, whichever happens first.

[Parties]

I’ve said this in the past, but Survivor Series should be the annual “season finale” of the WWE year. Blow off big post-Mania angles, do the grudge matches that conclude feuds, start planting seeds for what the Rumble/start of the following year will entail. Then in December do a more light-hearted Slamboree show, or something a la what Night of Champions started as. Like, if you must do a lame duck December show, at least make it a fun one with some offbeat pairings and matches, a la what New Japan tends to do at the end of the year in the weeks prior to the Dome.

 

In some ways the idea of traditional Survivor matches don’t always vibe with that concept as you’d end up culminating like five or six different storylines in one match, but this is why having more factions, stables, and de facto teams/requisite Japan-style tag partners helps. The new recurrence of the horrendous Tables, Ladders, and Chairs concept as every year’s final PPV sucks from a creative standpoint, and feels like one of those inane marketing-driven moves where they’ve realized they sell 12% more action figure accessories annually if the show with all the useless plunder is held right before the holidays.

[Jimmy James]

People legitimately do get excited about SmackDown in particular, not sure if there are very many RAW stans out there right now. SmackDown and the Goldberg program have been the bright spots in the last few months of WWE.

[cowboy hats]

Seeing a surprising lack of talk in here about Goldberg's shirtless nine year old celebrating in the ring

[stro]

Maybe because you'd probably be an asshole to say anything about it beyond "that's great father and son got to share that moment with the world".

[C.S.]

The Cruiserweight finish actively angered to the point where I had to turn off the show and take a drive somewhere.

 

When I got back, I continued where I left off, which was the Raw vs. SDL men's Survivor Series match. Holy shit, it...never...seemed...to...end. But I'll echo what someone else said: I was rarely bored. Was it goofy as fuck and often illogical? Yeah. Shane looking like Superman was ridiculous. There was a ton wrong with the match, but I can't bring myself to totally hate it either. I wish it had been chopped in half though, with every other match getting a bit more time.

 

I'll admit: I marked out for Goldberg's squash. I loved it. I really hate Brock Lesnar though. In every way, I consider him an albatross and liability. With that said, is there an encyclopedia of reasons to criticize the match and finish? Yes, obviously. But I wasn't expecting it at all. It worked for me for that reason alone.

 

Since 'cowboy hats' brought it up, I won't say anything about Goldberg's son other than he looked really tired - way past his bedtime? Nice father-son moment nonetheless. I'm really happy for Goldberg and even happier that Toronto chanted its ass off for him.

[Ready_Willing_Gable]

After many dead WWE crowds anyone shiting on this one can fuck off. At least they are into things.

Chanting over referees for count-out spots in matches that often have eliminations by count-out = into things?

I guess the crowd at Mania this year loved Reigns v HHH this year because there was a world of irrelevant bullshit chants for that match.

Not saying it was a bad crowd tonight, but that was profoundly fucking annoying, firstly because that's not paying any attention to the workers in front of you in favour of being zany - smacks of disrespect - and secondly they just overdid it to fuck. Even if it was funny once, which it wasn't, twenty nine times later it was seethingly annoying.

[PhilTLL]

Sasha and Charlotte were hotter than hell last ppv, and now they are tagging and Sasha is taking a random pin right in the middle of a match? This big monster heel is kicking ass and everyone is begging off her and she ... taps out?

 

Dead on all this. The first part is emblematic of the change from wrestlers as rivals to coworkers, the rest is just bad booking. On a related note, Nia Jax has nowhere near the athleticism and charisma needed to play Vader.

[Jimmy Redman]

Nia Jax isn't playing Vader. She's playing Mark Henry.

[Ready_Willing_Gable]

 

So does that mean that any chance of putting some active talent over strong by beating Brock is gone now? I mean, his main characteristic, that he was this unbeatable monster is pretty much gone now that he lost to a guy who hasn't wrestled in 12 years, in under two minutes.

 

In terms of other even semi-realistic guys who could have gotten the rub from doing that to Brock:

 

Big Cass - They’re not ready to pull the trigger on him, and he isn’t a good enough worker or over enough act yet from what I’ve seen.

Big E - Wishful thinking on my part: the odds of him ever even getting a strong singles run are less than 50/50 at this point.

Strowman – Probably the most likely candidate of all the current generation guys to get this type of rub from Vince, but he's too lumbering in his style to beat Brock like that.

Cesaro/Rusev/Sheamus – Fantasy booking of damaged midcarders at this point.

Reigns – Most deserving option: ridiculous that they never really rematched Mania 31, but smarks would hate Reigns going over in three moves.

Jason Jordan – Not for another 2 years, if ever, by which point Dominant Brock would be even more tiresome than he is now.

Cena – Probably Brock’s all-time best opponent, but it’d be meaningless now.

Wyatt – I’d like it, but no fans would buy him squashing Lesnar that fast, and I'd rather see them have a real match.

Undertaker – Done to death, awful matches, no one needs the rub less.

 

This is what happens when you push one new guy every 3-5 years.

 

None of those guys would or should ever beat Brock like that, because none of those guys are Goldberg.

 

I haven't posted on this board much this year because honestly I find you all quite tiresome. I admire the sheer amount of wrestling you guys have taken in, but the jadedness here does my head in. For a group of fans who are relentlessly nitpicky when it comes to psychology etc., the psychology of this match sure went over most of your heads.

 

Allow me to recap it for you:

-After the staredown, Brock is in business-as-usual mode as he tries to begin like we've seen a lot recently by forcing Goldberg into the corner. 'Motherfucker, I'm Goldberg' you could imagine Bill saying. Big shove!

-Lesnar's on the ground, startled, this is great work from Brock here - he sells the shock of being manhandled but allows himself a smug smirk, as he lazily gets up with his back turned to his opponent. BOOM SPEAR! you know the rest

-Lesnar underestimated Goldberg, big time. after all his talk echoing the fans doubts 'this guy, he's 50 years old, hasnt wrestled in 12 of those, and he stands a chance against ME!?' he's been embarrassed

-Goldberg proves the doubters wrong! Goldberg is still a destroyer! The joys of pro-wrestling that these things can happen!

-Brock is fucking mental though and it will be a sight to see how he reacts to this

 

That's a great fucking story told in "waaaa! only 45 secondz~!"

 

 

Great angle, beautifully done. Can't wait to watch Raw tonight.

 

 

I think it's silly to act like Brock couldn't put a full-time talent over now (hey, I wanna see it happen as much as you guys), like it's all been chucked away. He's Brock fucking Lesnar. I have a feeling he can gain some heat back.

 

 

Also get outta here with "worst Survivor Series". Go watch '99 again, or fuckin '93. The Four Doinks match was 10 minutes, and it felt like doubly as long as this year's men's elimination match.

[El-P]

Hey, thanks to this reaction thread, I won't have to suffer through the rest of this show. Perfectly happy with watching the women's match (although yeah, Sasha's elimination was dumb as fuck after that HITC first women main event ever) and the IC match which was excellent. I'll watch Lesnar vs Goldy for shits and giggle, but really, it's kinda ridiculous.

[PhilTLL]

Nia Jax isn't playing Vader. She's playing Mark Henry.

Point stands, ha.

[El-P]

Nia Jax looks like Chyna cosplaying Eagle Sawaii wearing a terrible dark grey Tekno Team 2000 outfit. With about the average talent of all those too.

 

Where the hell is Emma ?

[Ready_Willing_Gable]

Emma is seemingly going under a mini gimmick switch. Vignettes on Raw for "Emmalina" (yep) with lots of shots of her on the beach in swimwear

[GOTNW]

Nia Jax is great and everyone who disagrees with that is a sexist pig

[El-P]

I've watched the Goldy squash. Hey, Kudos to him for getting a shitload of money for this. I guess he'll make more shitloads of money for some sort of rematch leading to Mania. Good for him. For shock value, it was fine. But as someone who was tired of Goldy's streak before he even got WCW title, I must admit, I would have felt robbed if I paid a cent to watch this. And as far as continuity, Lesnar the imbeatable monster squashed with three moves by a 50 year old guy who hasn't worked in 13 years is completely idiotic. But that's the WWE today. All style, zero substance. (I ffed through the multi-man elimination tag… wow… Shane McMahon, really…. this company…)

 

Still, the good shit of the week-end :

 

Revival vs #DIY

Miz vs Sami Zayn

Asuka vs Mickie James

 

and Nak vs Joe to a lesser extent.

and some parts of the women's elimination match

 

Cherry picking is the name of the game. Just like in life.

[Ready_Willing_Gable]

Lesnar the imbeatable monster squashed with three moves by a 50 year old guy who hasn't worked in 13 years is completely idiotic.

More idiotic than a really simple story (Lesnar totally underestimating Goldberg and paying for it) executed to perfection completely going over your head?