Why does puro get so much love? Why does lucha get so dismissed?

[JerryvonKramer]

I'm standing by that post because the people who "dismiss lucha" have come to the conclusion that they think it mostly sucks. It's just a basic truism.

 

You might say the same thing about AJ goc, at some level you think it sucks, and seem to spend a lot of time mocking it.

 

People don't react much though cos the narrative of AJ being "the best" is pretty well worn and they feel pretty secure in their views, maybe Lucha feels more fragile I dunno, but most of the time most non-fans are gonna ignore it not be mocking it or whatever.

[goc]

I'm standing by that post because the people who "dismiss lucha" have come to the conclusion that they think it mostly sucks. It's just a basic truism.

 

You might say the same thing about AJ goc, at some level you think it sucks, and seem to spend a lot of time mocking it.

 

People don't react much though cos the narrative of AJ being "the best" is pretty well worn and they feel pretty secure in their views, maybe Lucha feels more fragile I dunno, but most of the time most non-fans are gonna ignore it not be mocking it or whatever.

I don't think I've made more than 4-5 posts about All Japan on this board, usually just to reply to people asking me if I've seen X match or why I wasn't voting someone for GWE. I just don't really care about it. I've tweeted about it a little bit and the "people don't react much" thing is definitely not true with the amount of people who either blocked me, argued with me, or subtweeted about me when I said Misawa wasn't a smart worker.

[Cap]

In response to JVK,

 

Sure... people trash stuff all over the place and I dont have any problem with you thinking Lucha sucks. I have read some of what you have written about lucha, especially some of the high end stuff and completely understand why you don't like it. That is 100% fine. But people's response was at least to some degree about the context. This is thread about why one style is perceived as superior in a forum that at least ostensibly is one that privileges civil discourse and a willingness to dive into the complexity of wrestling.

 

Quest: Why does puro generally get more praise than lucha?

 

Answer: Because lucha sucks...

 

Nope. That is a statement about why YOU don't like lucha (because you have tried and don't like it), but that doesn't tell us much about the actual question, why lucha doesn't resonate more broadly. Of course your position unfolded a little bit with the thread in terms of tastes, but it can't be a surprise that people responded the way they did to it.

[Grimmas]

I'm standing by that post because the people who "dismiss lucha" have come to the conclusion that they think it mostly sucks. It's just a basic truism.

 

You might say the same thing about AJ goc, at some level you think it sucks, and seem to spend a lot of time mocking it.

 

People don't react much though cos the narrative of AJ being "the best" is pretty well worn and they feel pretty secure in their views, maybe Lucha feels more fragile I dunno, but most of the time most non-fans are gonna ignore it not be mocking it or whatever.

People not liking lucha is not the lucha.

 

The issue is it getting completely ignored or the majority of people just thinking the whole thing sucks. While, puro (especially current NJPW) get this insane amount of praise all the time.

 

Why is this? That is the question posed. Is it really that lucha sucks and puro rules or is there something else going on here?

 

I think it was nailed earlier in the thread with there being a learning curve and people's reaction to that.

[Herodes]

The level of discussion around "Lucha" will remain unevolved as long as it's being discussed as Lucha, some homogenous, monolithic entity or style and not afforded the acknowledgment of a lack of homogeneity that "Puro" gets. See example of "floaty armdrags" recently which reduces (as examples) La Fiera, El Faraon, Virus and Blue Panther to a single entity. Anything that can be conceded as "good" therefore stands as an exception in relation to the single homogenous mass i.e. I like it therefore it must be an exception that "transcends the style". Once we can get past the broad-based discussion of Lucha and start talking about individual matches, styles, performers or even promotions will the discussion have evolved. I'm sure WCW has a part to play in the perception and stunted growth of Lucha discussion due to their portrayal and setting expectation of "Lucha" as the inconsequential sideshow niche to the real product.

 

From the original cultural point it's easier for a tape trading generation to see Funk and Hansen being Funk and Hansen in Japan as seamlessly co-aligned with the US wrestling which gave birth to it rather than a wrestling culture which has a very different narrative of evolution. Also to this generation Japanese wrestling has a more defined continuation point for sampling relative to Lucha; from Super J Cup move on to the big all Japan matches, Dream slams, nj dome shows etc. Whereas Lucha had when worlds collide as its entry point and no defined route after that tape, and no champion as prominent as Meltzer acting as a guide with instructions on further exploration. Once Art and Eddy get their haircuts, the budding Lucha novice was left stranded as to the next steps.

 

The argument about hegemony is about placing wrestling cultures and their development into their context, similar to looking at how 3 ethnic Koreans had game-changing influence on the direction in Japan and placing that into the wider context - and not stifling discussion with current trends of lazy labels.

[cad]

Chalking the difference in views up to some invisible racism against Mexican culture or American colonialism might allow you to enjoy a moral high horse, but it's not going to sway anyone to your side.

I wouldn't accuse someone of racism for not liking some kind of wrestling. Japanese culture in almost all shapes is usually treated as more important than Mexican culture, simple as that. Maybe it just captures the imagination more. I don't know why it would surprise anybody that the same holds true in professional wrestling.

[Sean Liska]

The Memphis/Lucha connection is an interesting thing that might be worth a separate thread because I love both so much. A lot of it for me is just that I'm a very easily bored person. I've never seen Negro Casas just sit in an armlock for three minutes like you'll get plenty in 70s-80s AJPW. How many times in 80s footage do you see Jerry Lawler just work a headlock for several minutes without doing anything interesting. They're always doing something. They both take advantage of face/heel structure to come up with lots of neat things in matches and payback spots to keep things moving. Yeah, you might get sick of Lawler playing hide the chain, but he's doing something, the match is moving along. Negro Casas and Jerry Lawler are probably my two favorite wrestlers of all time. The term I use for both Negro and Memphis is "relentlessly entertaining".

[sek69]

Someone a few pages back made a point that seems to have been glossed over. There's a fairly big difference between CMLL style lucha and AAA/indy style lucha. CMLL is more or less trying to stay the exact same style that Mr. Lutteroth started in 1933. They have acrobatics and six mans, sure, but I'm not sure I've seen anyone anywhere put on a better professional wrestling performance than Atlantis did in his two Anniversary matches with UG. AAA on the other hand is more like if ECW faked its death and moved to Mexico to hide from creditors. A handful of occasional good matches between tons of garbage that sometimes gets unnecessarily violent. You can't really complain about AAA looking too fakey when Psycho Clown almost burned his arm off at Triplemania this year.

[Coffey]

I feel like my biggest disconnect in Lucha Libre is actually the referees.

 

The emotion of a match is very important, especially if you are going to be drawn into a match or care about any of the participants. Even today, WWE occasionally will draw me into a match & I find myself marking out. It just happened in NXT in the match between The Revival Vs. Gargano/Ciampa. I can't get that in Lucha Libre because of the damn referees. I can't buy into any pinfall attempt or near falls or finishes because it takes the ref like ten seconds to count to three. It just kills all the drama & suspension of disbelief for me.

 

I love the heritage & the stories behind the masks & all of that. I've tried to get into Lucha Libre but the matches just don't do it for me. Even the pimped bloody brawls - there's just a big disconnect for me.

 

With Puroresu, even if I was not familiar with the participant, a good match could make me a fan. The first Puro I ever saw in my life was Super J Cup 1994 or 1995 (I believe) & I didn't get it. A lot of it was sloppy. The biggest thing I took away from it was the match where Great Sasuke blew the finish. Later on though, I got some Comps. from Goodhelmet & I got to watch guys like Misawa, Kawada, Akiyama, Kobashi, Taue, etc. I'm still not a fan of Taue but those other guys were doing a ton of great things. The matches, despite their length (or maybe even because of it), were entertaining the hell out of me. It was like watching a movie in one match. There was a beginning, a middle & an end. I didn't know what the finish was ever going to be, who was ever going to win or what I was going to see. I bought into the near falls & was continually saying things like "holy shit!" I've seen a lot of bad Japanese wrestling too, especially the deathmatch stuff, but I've seen great Puro. I've never seen great Lucha unless it was Americanized.

[sek69]

CMLL especially has some old ass refs that make Bronco Lubich look like Tommy Young, but what I hate most of all is when the rudo ref spots get overused.

 

Actually, to be more precise I hate when Tirantes Jr goes overboard and gloms all the heat on himself. It's like the wrestling version of an Ump Show in baseball.

[Jetlag]

People not liking lucha is not the lucha.

The issue is it getting completely ignored or the majority of people just thinking the whole thing sucks. While, puro (especially current NJPW) get this insane amount of praise all the time.

 

Why is this? That is the question posed. Is it really that lucha sucks and puro rules or is there something else going on here?

 

I think it was nailed earlier in the thread with there being a learning curve and people's reaction to that.

 

 

It's called mass appeal. Believe me a lot of people do try lucha once in a while, especially when something big e.g. CMLL anniversary show is coming up. They just don't get stuck. Blame the shitty production, blame the fact that they like the idea of mexican wrestling more than actual mexican wrestling (see: people saying they prefer Chikara, LU, luchadores in japan etc. to mexican wrestling).

 

Similiarily you can see that most people listen to pop/rock music or a variation of it. They don't listen to 70s prog rock or free jazz or death metal. You can play them something like this,

 

and they most likely won't find it appealing. It's not what they are used to so it's hard to discern what's going on, and that goes for a lot of people who say they like heavy music (=thick guitar production) aswell. Most of them will say it's just a bunch of noise just like people say lucha has no psychology and is just pretty moves.

 

Japanese wrestling is appealing to the niche audience of internet fans who grew up with american wrestling. Better production, more big events and feuds to get into, similiar 2.99999 layout that they are familiar with from american wrestling, no confusing rules or heel ref bullshit. Plus hearing the impact of the chops and bumps makes a huge difference. I started watching lucha with BTJr. handhelds and it was a lot easier to get into than CMLL TV.

[sek69]

I always found it odd that hardcore fans by and large tend to gravitate more towards Japanese wrestling than lucha. I would have thought that lucha would have been easier to get into from an English speaking standpoint since you can at least usually get the gist of what's being said even if you aren't fluent in Spanish as opposed to Japanese. Also it would be easier for someone North America based to actually travel to Mexico to see it live as opposed to making the trip to the Tokyo Dome.

 

Then again, maybe that was part of the mystique. Watching wrestling from the other side of the world in a completely inaccessable (to most) language.

[Loss]

I would also point out that fans don't seem to value transitional moves like leapfrogs, armdrags, reversals, pinning combos, etc., that used to be a staple of the American style. We have switched more to a style where most of the moves and exchanges culminate in something high-impact. I think that's what American fans now like. Lucha libre tends to have a lot of the former, at least in its classic form, and I think that plays a role in some fans dismissing it. Some people like lots of suplex variations, powerbombs, DDTs, press slams and such, which is funny, because in the 80s, those were considered "power moves" by hardcore fans, and power wrestlers were seen as the guys who couldn't work. As for modern lucha, I don't really get someone who likes WWE and NJPW dismissing it. CMLL in particular has more in common with American and Japanese wrestling than at any time I can recall -- too much for my tastes, honestly.

[JerryvonKramer]

I think maybe "non-stickability" is something. I was relatively high on a lot of 80s Lucha set stuff but had very little desire to carry on, doesn't stick for some reason. It's like "that was a good match", but it feels ephemeral. Hard to put one's finger on, but I guess it really comes down to me feeling like not a lot matters.

 

Trios stuff is too chaotic generally.

 

Title matches have too much cooperative looking mat work, like I just don't and can't care about the intricate stuff, it's OJ's bag.

 

Brawls suffer from 2/3 structure and sudden falls that always feel anti-climactic.

 

So I can watch two hours of this stuff and even dig some of it, and then tomorrow couldn't remember a single thing.

 

Aaaqq

[sek69]

Lucha tends to be built on long feuds leading to mask/hair matches, maybe watching individual matches years later without most of the context hurts it more than other styles? I know that's treading close to Dave's "matches are worked for their time and nothing else" edict, but maybe that's not entirely wrong?

[GOTNW]

I'm just at a point in my fandom where a lot of it makes for useful discrimination. When I see someone's favourite wrestling of all time is 90s All Japan, all their opinions correlate with the Meltzer cannon and they don't *get* lucha, I still may respect their opinion for other reasons, but for most it's just a sign for me to not pay attention. Whereas if Jetlag or JimArg pimp something it'll inherently intrigue me more because their tastes correlate to mine more. I get why Grimmas is bothered by this because it is consistent with his political stances, but as I've learned a lot in how the real world operates I frankly see no reason to be bothered by this stuff as long as there are people who enjoy and discuss lucha on its own merits and new people are discovering it. Being popular or equally represented in artistic fields, even in something as dorky as pro wrestling critique, is something that just won't ever happen for many workers that are deemed great by giant dorks that also think Gran Hamada, Kantaro Hoshino, Fuerza Guerrera etc. are all time greats.

 

 

[sek69]

If someone tries a different style and decides for whatever reason it's not their cup of tea, I have no issue with that. It does kind of bother me to see someone dismiss something using criteria that makes it clear they either never gave it a chance or used the worst possible example to do so.

[Grimmas]

One thing I've learned over the last two months is that I am going to treat puro the same way puro fans treat lucha.

 

In the past if somebody made a MOTY list and left off something like Canis Lupus vs Trauma I I'd be annoyed, because I went out of the way to watch those hyped NJPW matches. It's pretty obvious it's not a two way street.

 

I don't really see a reason to watch puro anymore. I used to feel that would make my opinions invalid, but it's pretty clear it doesn't, since lucha is being ignored in the same way.

[goc]

One thing I've learned over the last two months is that I am going to treat puro the same way puro fans treat lucha.

 

In the past if somebody made a MOTY list and left off something like Canis Lupus vs Trauma I I'd be annoyed, because I went out of the way to watch those hyped NJPW matches. It's pretty obvious it's not a two way street.

 

I don't really see a reason to watch puro anymore. I used to feel that would make my opinions invalid, but it's pretty clear it doesn't, since lucha is being ignored in the same way.

This is pretty much how I approached GWE and I certainly didn't feel bad about it then or now. I didn't totally discount Japan as I know for sure I had Fujinami and Onita on my ballot and possibly 1-2 more but I spent a lot more time watching lucha because I knew I'd enjoy it more and it was going to be less represented.

[fxnj]

If this thread is any indication, claiming people dismiss or ignore lucha is an entirely faulty way of looking at things. Plenty of people who've come out as anti-lucha have pointed that there are matches in the style they're high on while also explaining the things that make them not actively seek things out. If you want people to watch a great lucha match, putting more effort into pimping seems a far more productive effort than ignoring puro in a bizarre act of retaliation.

 

FWIW, I'm one of the people who watches the pimped matches, but that may change if/when powerbomb.tv launches as I've always had a soft spot for the BTjr. handhelds. Another thing working against lucha is that the two mainstream promotions are both kind of shitty weekly TV productions in their own way. CMLL has every match following its awful formula and AAA is hellbent on imitating ECW. Indy footage where you get to see guys work without these constraints is a lot more irregular than the equivalent in either the US or Japan.

[Grimmas]

If this thread is any indication, claiming people dismiss or ignore lucha is an entirely faulty way of looking at things. Plenty of people who've come out as anti-lucha have pointed that there are matches in the style they're high on while also explaining the things that make them not actively seek things out. If you want people to watch a great lucha match, putting more effort into pimping seems a far more productive effort than ignoring puro in a bizarre act of retaliation.

 

If people were truly giving lucha a fair shot then there would be more than

 

1 Lucha Match of the Year

1 Lucha Thesz/Flair Winner

1 Lucha Most Oustanding Wrestler (although he worked in WCW)

 

In the history of the WON awards and luchadors would had done better in the GWE.

[supremebve]

 

Chalking the difference in views up to some invisible racism against Mexican culture or American colonialism might allow you to enjoy a moral high horse, but it's not going to sway anyone to your side.

I wouldn't accuse someone of racism for not liking some kind of wrestling. Japanese culture in almost all shapes is usually treated as more important than Mexican culture, simple as that. Maybe it just captures the imagination more. I don't know why it would surprise anybody that the same holds true in professional wrestling.

 

I wouldn't claim that any of this is untrue, but I also don't think it matters much at all in this discussion. I for one am someone who has much more of an affinity for Mexican culture, and Latin cultures as a whole, based purely on the personal relationships I have with people of Hispanic descent. I generally don't have any personal ties to Japan or any Japanese people. I've been to Mexico, I know some Spanish, and some of my closest friends are Hispanic. If cultural bias was involved, I'd probably like lucha far more than puro, but I don't. I don't believe it has any bearing at all on my opinion of any particular brand of wrestling. It is a style of wrestling that isn't for everybody, and that is probably as deep as it gets.

[Jmare007]

One thing I've learned over the last two months is that I am going to treat puro the same way puro fans treat lucha.

 

In the past if somebody made a MOTY list and left off something like Canis Lupus vs Trauma I I'd be annoyed, because I went out of the way to watch those hyped NJPW matches. It's pretty obvious it's not a two way street.

 

I don't really see a reason to watch puro anymore. I used to feel that would make my opinions invalid, but it's pretty clear it doesn't, since lucha is being ignored in the same way.

 

Was there any answer to the question in the OP that would've made you change this decision? What happened in the last two months? just curious.

[WingedEagle]

One thing I've learned over the last two months is that I am going to treat puro the same way puro fans treat lucha.

 

In the past if somebody made a MOTY list and left off something like Canis Lupus vs Trauma I I'd be annoyed, because I went out of the way to watch those hyped NJPW matches. It's pretty obvious it's not a two way street.

 

I don't really see a reason to watch puro anymore. I used to feel that would make my opinions invalid, but it's pretty clear it doesn't, since lucha is being ignored in the same way.

 

Your first statement is incredibly immature, but you probably already know that.

 

What if someone watched Canis Lupus vs. Trauma I and didn't think it was a MOTYC? Do you want people to give it a chance or to concur with your every assessment?

 

If you're going to pick & choose your wrestling based on who else watches it you're only spiting yourself. Try to stick to what you actually enjoy regardless of who else comprises the audience.

[Grimmas]

 

One thing I've learned over the last two months is that I am going to treat puro the same way puro fans treat lucha.

 

In the past if somebody made a MOTY list and left off something like Canis Lupus vs Trauma I I'd be annoyed, because I went out of the way to watch those hyped NJPW matches. It's pretty obvious it's not a two way street.

 

I don't really see a reason to watch puro anymore. I used to feel that would make my opinions invalid, but it's pretty clear it doesn't, since lucha is being ignored in the same way.

 

Was there any answer to the question in the OP that would've made you change this decision? What happened in the last two months? just curious.

 

 

No idea. This thread was to try to understand why this was happening more than anything else.

 

The last two months just had me thinking about this shit more often, more than any events happening. Also time is limited.

 

 

 

One thing I've learned over the last two months is that I am going to treat puro the same way puro fans treat lucha.

 

In the past if somebody made a MOTY list and left off something like Canis Lupus vs Trauma I I'd be annoyed, because I went out of the way to watch those hyped NJPW matches. It's pretty obvious it's not a two way street.

 

I don't really see a reason to watch puro anymore. I used to feel that would make my opinions invalid, but it's pretty clear it doesn't, since lucha is being ignored in the same way.

 

Your first statement is incredibly immature, but you probably already know that.

 

What if someone watched Canis Lupus vs. Trauma I and didn't think it was a MOTYC? Do you want people to give it a chance or to concur with your every assessment?

 

If you're going to pick & choose your wrestling based on who else watches it you're only spiting yourself. Try to stick to what you actually enjoy regardless of who else comprises the audience.

 

It's really immature to do what 90% of fans do?

 

To turn that around, if I watch what highly praised puro match and didn't like it, does that mean I gave puro a chance? What I am talking about is not people giving something a chance and not liking it. There are people who will try to watch highly praised stuff, but they are the minority. The majority go, I don't get lucha and ignore the whole thing.

 

I stick to what I enjoy, the difference is I used to feel obligated to watch all the highly praised stuff. That usually means lots of NJPW stuff. All that has changed is me feeling obligated to watch it.

 

For a few years (13-15) I watched a TON of NJPW, because that is the praised stuff. There was some good stuff and some bad stuff. I never really dug it. I have limited watching time, why should I waste any of that on NJPW?

 

What I want to do is really focus in on what I like and try to shine some light on it.

 

Lucha is not inferior to puro, but it is obviously seen that way by the masses. The only small thing I can do is focus my viewing habits onto what I think is good, not what the masses feel is good.

 

How is that immature?