Sean Liska Posted December 21, 2017 Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 All right, let's talk Young Bucks. They're a huge independent draw. But their independent schtick, the way it's so meta and insider, their inside jokes at the camera during matches, the jokes inside matches, it's everything I don't want from indy wrestling. I'm old and remember the days of peak indy wrestling being Danielson and Joe stiffing each other. Punk cutting tremendous promos, the Raven-Punk feud full of authentic emotion if not workrate. But they're super successful and have ROH doing their best business ever. Am I out of touch? Am I allowed to not enjoy it like Meltzer hated 80s WWF? Is this just the direction indy wrestling is heading and I should fold my cards now or are there viable alternatives like ICW. What sayeth PWO on the Bucks and the future of alternative wrestling? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted December 21, 2017 Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 My question has always been why is it seemingly a horrible thing to some people that an act they don't particularly care for is over? I don't want to come across as yelling at Sean, but it seems like so goddamn many people take personal offense to the Young Bucks I'm wondering if they went around stealing people's lunches and kicking their dogs. Do I enjoy everything the Bucks do? No, it does get to be a bit excessive at times (okay, a lot of the time). But I'm also not going to swear off indy wrestling just because they are a popular act right now. tl;dr not everything will always be presented with you in mind. Let people enjoy things if they like them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted December 21, 2017 Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 This is what I said in June, 2015 in their nomination thread for GTTE. The Young Bucks are the first wrestlers for the internet troll age. I think they understand pro wrestling pretty well. They've leveraged that understanding into a deconstruction of the form that appeals heavily to people under a certain age. They know how to integrate every aspect of their act, including and especially social media, in their actual in-ring work, which is very impressive. In one regard, the sense that wrestling is about milking money from the marks, they are revolutionary. They're the first wrestlers of the kickstarter era. I'd actually liken them to Brody in a lot of ways, in how they are their own bosses for the most part, in how they refuse to follow any sort of convention and even push against it as part of their gimmick. I think that real life will catch up with them at some point. Their act, as it is now, is not sustainable, both for the speed in which culture changes and inverts these days and just in the fact that they're aging and starting to have more familial responsibilities. In a lot of ways that leads to an end of freedom and their entire existence as they are now, hinges on their freedom to break from form. I respect what they've accomplished. I'm way too old for that shit though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted December 21, 2017 Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 I still laugh at them superkicking the 8 year old. I don't enjoy them in RoH because they seem like bad parodies of themselves there. But I really enjoy them in New Japan and when they used to do appearances for Chikara. There is a certain spectacle to their matches that I always find to be enjoyable. I sadly haven't gotten to see hem wrestle live yet but I hope to catch them on a show one of these days. Also my hats off to the guys for making a shit load of money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted December 21, 2017 Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 And side note, they paid off years of abusing the PWG ring announcer in a really good way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KawadaSmile Posted December 21, 2017 Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 They are smart in terms of making money, I don't think anyone can dispute that. However, I find it somewhat curious that, while they are kind of self aware in their schtick, at the same time they take themselves very, very seriously, and engage in twitter beefs rather constantly, like their form of pro wrestling is sacred. I don't care for their matches, if people like them - and I see why they do - that's good, but I kinda see them generating a toxic fanbase due to their manchild tendencies on twitter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted December 21, 2017 Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 But the only people I see being toxic aren't Bucks fans, but those who have to constantly tell everyone how much they don't like the Young Bucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted December 21, 2017 Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 Yeah, I really only see the super toxic stuff from people that think they are ruining wrestling. Edit: You want to see a toxic fanbase, check out Steven Universe fans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KawadaSmile Posted December 21, 2017 Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 I've seen some overlapping of fans that take their time to shit on WWE (specially on Roman Reigns) while also harassing fans online and YB fans. Mind you, I am aware that there are toxic people everywhere, in every fandom. Not saying otherwise. However I am saying that YB can generate toxic behavior due to their antics, mostly between fans that think they are "in" on their whole thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoo Enthusiast Posted December 21, 2017 Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 Big picture, I love them. I first got really exposed to them in PWG several years ago and became a big fan of them at that point because I think they are funny and ridiculous and they fit in that setting perfectly. That is their home territory. They seem like good dudes, especially after I had watched the Kevin Steen Show interviews back at the time they came out. I love how they know how to work Twitter and were the first indy guys to really do that, too. Twitter isn’t real life and they grasp that. They have also helped create the blueprint for how to make a living in This Business That We Love and if you watch Being The Elite, you can see that they grind their asses off to do so. They are in work mode 24/7. Do i particularly enjoy their matches outside of PWG? Not very often, especially these days. Not even as often when they are in Reseda anymore, either. It just goes with the territory for them now since they have gotten so big. They just do their match now. If I am binging on PWG, by the third show I have seen enough Bucks for a while. I absolutely get why people don’t like their matches. I don’t like shoot style. Different strokes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted December 21, 2017 Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 I think they have every right to lash back at people. Theyve worked their asses off to be huge successes in wrestling without the WWE. Despite Cornettes stupid These are little kids bullshit, these are grown men with families that they are providing a comfortable living for. I dont blame them a bit for getting pissed off and then using that to self promote via detractors sharing gifs of them. Its savvy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted December 21, 2017 Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 They can be pretty great when working as serious heels. Its rarely the case these days but there were at least a couple occasions this year when they dropped the BTE act and comedy routine, and just wrestled. I'm thinking a couple examples were at the G1 Special in in Cali and at the G1 Finals, but could be off. They know how to get heat and build a babyface comeback. But those occasions seem fewer and further between these days. I haven't seen them live in a few years. Perhaps the Elite routine with the comedy, too sweets, superkicks and catchphrases makes for a fun variety show if you're in the live audience. Its certainly different from what you get on the rest of most shows. But its not an act that I need to see on tape ever again. Just doesn't cut it for me at all. If they make money with it that is great for them. Its just not where I'd invest my fan dollars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. Badger Posted December 21, 2017 Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 I'm more bothered by giant dudes doing standing shooting star presses at this point. Why do that!? Just stomp a dude or drop a massive elbow? The Bucks been around long enough that I can respect their schtick and have come to appreciate them especially in their natural habitat of the Reseda, CA foreign legion hall. More recently: The Elite stuff is tiresome especially if you (like me) actually had to endure years NWO, DX and every shit incarnation, imitation, or revival of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fakeplastictrees Posted December 21, 2017 Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 Matt D explained it very well. Blah, Blah, Blah neo-postmodernism. The Young Bucks are the response to the response to postmodern wrestling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. Badger Posted December 21, 2017 Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 I'm curious: will any of their output be memorable in 10-15 years like Joe, Danielson, Daniels, Punk era Indy wrestling? Does any match or feud stand out from another? Or are they just "of the moment?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted December 21, 2017 Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 Its not about tape dollars, its about Live crowds and t shirts. Which is what wrestling is all about. Memorable moments in Indies only mean something to the fans who were there either live or via the DVDs. And the old timers who love to go after them on Twitter are just Old carnies keeping themselves relevant by working the dummies who agree with the shit the carnies are saying. Its all workers working. I remember that a few years ago the Bucks put it out there that Cornette contacted them after his initial fake outrage saying Were working the marks and they wanted nothing to do with it or him. Oh, and even though it does not matter , I dont particularly dig the Bucks stuff Ive seen but thats completely irrelevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fakeplastictrees Posted December 21, 2017 Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 I'm curious: will any of their output be memorable in 10-15 years like Joe, Danielson, Daniels, Punk era Indy wrestling? Does any match or feud stand out from another? Or are they just "of the moment?" The Young Bucks are more latitudinal compared to the wrestlers mentioned.. As Sorrow noted, The Young Bucks are about live crowds and t-shirts, The Moment, GIFs, creating fallout discussions, and manufactured controversy. Danielson, etc. were/are about the moment as well, however, they look at it from an artistic standpoint of what is going to hold up today, tomorrow, and next year. This means not working with nor exploiting 'new' elements, etc., but getting back to basics in understanding what has worked for over a century and why it continues to work today. Its conscious to the understanding of old media and completely semi-conscious to new media. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. Badger Posted December 21, 2017 Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 No, I think its relevant for sure. That's what makes it interesting. They're good money men but, perhaps boring or repetitive. Or only good for live shows... I don't think this way but, in regards to the OP, stylistically will their stuff hold water and influence Indy wrestling for years to come like Joe et al. I guess I'm asking someone to make an argument that it will. I like Matt D's post especially in regards to Brody also Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin Posted December 21, 2017 Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 Is this just the direction indy wrestling is heading and I should fold my cards now or are there viable alternatives like ICW. No, this is not the direction indy wrestling is taking and I honestly don't even see why one would assume that. Not everyone is like them now and not everyone will be like them then. Not everyone works like them now and not everyone will work like them then. To me, this seems more like a momentary fad that will eventually die out at some point and they will either find a way to reinvent themselves and come up with something new or they will fade away like everything else that doesn't find a way to reinvent itself. I personally don't care for their work because I haven't followed indy wrestling regularly since about 2008 I wanna say (2012 possibly?). However I will admit that they have had some moments where I've found their schtick funny -- one of them doing endless tumbles in a New Japan ring mocking Ricochet, them getting on the mic. at PWG and saying the match would become a 4 way spot fest, etc. Sure I find that stuff funny and entertaining, but it's not something I'd personally go out of my way to see nor would I become a hardcore fan of them based simply on 1-2 segments of comedy. As for their matches themselves, yeah, I'm not a fan. This endless thigh slapping of 2017 indy wrestling and the endless gymnastic routines are things I don't like and that seems like the type of thing they usually do based on the matches I've seen, but I also don't waste my time telling others how much I hate it and how bad it is and how they should stop liking it because I don't agree with/like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted December 21, 2017 Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 I respect the hell out of anyone who manages to beat the system and make a good living outside of the WWE machine. I don't particularly enjoy their matches, but I long ago resigned myself to the fact that the kind of wrestling I really enjoy is dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawho5 Posted December 21, 2017 Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 Yeah, what Nintendo said. If you can work the system and get your paydays, more power to you. I won't be in the audience or buying the DVDs, but that hardly matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted December 21, 2017 Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 My question has always been why is it seemingly a horrible thing to some people that an act they don't particularly care for is over? I don't want to come across as yelling at Sean, but it seems like so goddamn many people take personal offense to the Young Bucks I'm wondering if they went around stealing people's lunches and kicking their dogs. Do I enjoy everything the Bucks do? No, it does get to be a bit excessive at times (okay, a lot of the time). But I'm also not going to swear off indy wrestling just because they are a popular act right now. tl;dr not everything will always be presented with you in mind. Let people enjoy things if they like them. Yes because this is totally a thing that is exclusive to The Young Bucks and in no way has anyone acted like this about Roman Reigns or John Cena. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wahoos Leg Posted December 21, 2017 Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 I still laugh at them superkicking the 8 year old. I don't enjoy them in RoH because they seem like bad parodies of themselves there. But I really enjoy them in New Japan and when they used to do appearances for Chikara. There is a certain spectacle to their matches that I always find to be enjoyable. I sadly haven't gotten to see hem wrestle live yet but I hope to catch them on a show one of these days. Also my hats off to the guys for making a shit load of money. Agreed, I much prefer the NJPW iteration of the Bucks to the ROH/PWG one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted December 21, 2017 Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 What is the spot that has gotten so much talk lately? I've seen all of this referring to "the spot" on Twitter ... what was it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin Posted December 21, 2017 Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 What is the spot that has gotten so much talk lately? I've seen all of this referring to "the spot" on Twitter ... what was it? https://twitter.com/briantheguppie/status/942054673451835392 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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