Bryan Danielson's in ring ability

[ShittyLittleBoots]

Yeah, AJ pre-NJPW wasn't very close to the best in the world conversations for me either. Had a very spotty career up to that point - some great stuff, but lots of shit in there, too.

 

Funnily enough, some of his best work from the 2000 - 2009 decade is, in my opinion of course, the ROH trilogy w/ Bryan. Bryan brought out a completely new, fresh side out of AJ in those matches.

[Childs]

I had Danielson in my top 10 for GWE, so I have no reservation putting him in the top tier, obviously.

 

The argument between him and AJ has gotten more interesting, because Danielson has been essentially inactive for four years, a period during which Styles has been the best worker in the world. I also buy that a skill-for-skill comparison comes out pretty close, though I think some of Sleeze's criticisms apply mostly to Danielson's peak WWE work and don't account for the breadth of his indy performances.

 

But I'm sorry, I still see AJ's TNA run as a problem, at least when we're sorting things out at the tippy top level. No question he delivered some great matches and many good performances. He had most of the skills we see now throughout the run. But I'll always prefer Danielson's next-generation Flair act, in which he cranked out good to great matches against a huge cross section of the guys from his era. And he wasn't doing the same thing every night. Sometimes he was the plucky underdog. Sometimes he was the master grappler, breaking in a younger wrestler. Sometimes he was the cocky touring ace. But he could go at a high level with anybody under any circumstances.

 

Might AJ have been able to do the same thing? Sure.

 

But he didn't, at least not with anywhere near the same frequency, until he got out of TNA.

[Laz]

That adds some flavor to the Styles/Bryan debate, though, in how AJ was able to shine no matter the booking but Bryan was protected everywhere (but WWE, overall). If we're talking who the best overall talent of that generation is then I'm actually siding with Styles for that reason. Since this thread is purely about in-ring, though, it's Bryan 100%.

 

El-P, you are doing yourself a major disservice writing off Bryan in ROH. It was a completely different company then and the flaws with the "ROH style" didn't show up until Bryan was on his way out.

[sek69]

AJ and Bryan are probably 1a-1b in my book. Bryan was ahead for a long time but AJ's caught up and maybe by this point surpassed him. I never expected him to do as well in WWE as he has, and he's managed to work miracles with guys I wouldn't think he'd mesh well with.

 

One thing that I think sets them apart is Bryan being on another level when it comes to connecting with the crowd. I consider that a big part of in-ring ability since you can be as techincally sound as you want but it means nothing if no one gives a shit when you do it. AJ's got a lot better in this WWE run, but I don't think anyone can come close to Bryan in that aspect.

[El-P]

El-P, you are doing yourself a major disservice writing off Bryan in ROH. It was a completely different company then and the flaws with the "ROH style" didn't show up until Bryan was on his way out.

 

I'm not writing him off at all. I'm just saying ROH is something I really never was interested in diving into (the few attempts over the years at different points never really worked for me) and since at this point I'd rather watch everything in context, I'm not really into the idea of watching an isolated "Bryan in ROH" anthology, although I'm sure I'm missing a lot of great stuff.

[El-P]

One thing that I think sets them apart is Bryan being on another level when it comes to connecting with the crowd. I consider that a big part of in-ring ability since you can be as techincally sound as you want but it means nothing if no one gives a shit when you do it. AJ's got a lot better in this WWE run, but I don't think anyone can come close to Bryan in that aspect.

 

Bryan could/should have been the biggest star in the company. At his peak he was at Austin-level of connection with the crowd. Pushed as he should have and the opportunites that come with that, he would be untouchable at this point.

[Coffey]

Daniel Bryan is great but I don't consider him the greatest, so I voted no. I consider Misawa, Kobashi & Kawada (along with Stan Hansen, Ric Flair & Terry Funk) to be the greatest that ever did it & I don't think he's at that level.

 

I had Daniel Bryan at #36 on my greatest wrestler list. Had a few wrestlers above him that I would now put him ahead of but I still don't think he's approaching my top 25.

 

I do think he's night & day better than AJ Styles though.

[Kadaveri]

That adds some flavor to the Styles/Bryan debate, though, in how AJ was able to shine no matter the booking but Bryan was protected everywhere (but WWE, overall).

 

I think you're undercutting how impressive Bryan was at getting over in WWE way above the level of his booking. Who else could become the most over guy in years from being put in a comedy tag team with Kane? Or the way how fans forced him into the Wrestlemania 30 main event because they just would not give up cheering him at every show as the top babyface despite him losing every significant match for 6 months? Even losing a feud to Bray Wyatt did nothing to hurt his momentum. Remember this was a guy who was supposed to just be an indie internet darling whose success wouldn't necessarily transfer to WWE.

 

This is the reason why I have Bryan over AJ. As great as AJ is in every technical aspect of pro-wrestling (he'd still be high on my list) he's never got such a deep connection with the crowd that Bryan did, both on the indies AND in WWE. There's some intangible greatest about Bryan that's hard to pin down but can't be denied. Watch the Summerslam 2013 match with Cena or against HHH at WM30 for how the crowd is responding to Bryan. They all seem absolutely desperate to see him win that match and cheer for him with all their hearts as if the outcome was being decided right there in the ring and the more they cheer the more they can inspire him to victory.

[KB8]

I can't remember where I put him on my GWE ballot. I do consider him a 2nd tier worker though, outside the Top 10-20.

 

Better than Kobashi, but below Kawada. About the same level as Misawa.

 

It is curious that I don't remember his best match. I always say Danielson/Morishima, but I dunno how well that holds up.

 

FWIW, he is likely the best overall guy from 2002-his first retirement in a cakewalk.

 

This is almost word for word where I'm at with Bryan, though I'd probably go Danielson/Nigel from 6th Anniversary as his best match.

[Jmare007]

To add to the AJ vs Bryan thing: who had the better Cena match? I lean towards D-Bry/Cena mainly because it didn't have all the annoying PWG Cena stuff AJ had to deal with, though I can't say I can fault Styles for that.

[yesdanielbryan]

 

I can't remember where I put him on my GWE ballot. I do consider him a 2nd tier worker though, outside the Top 10-20.

 

Better than Kobashi, but below Kawada. About the same level as Misawa.

 

It is curious that I don't remember his best match. I always say Danielson/Morishima, but I dunno how well that holds up.

 

FWIW, he is likely the best overall guy from 2002-his first retirement in a cakewalk.

 

This is almost word for word where I'm at with Bryan, though I'd probably go Danielson/Nigel from 6th Anniversary as his best match.

 

What would be your answer to the question of the poll?

[shodate]

Aj is not better than Am dragon at all for this main reason the style he used through most of his active time is not in my eyes conducive od be being called a top 20 all-time worker, or top-level. The overly high flying style vs the mainly gound based game of Dragon the indie spotfest style. let alone aj's not being on the same level of realism in strikes as Dragon does.

 

Dragon' s ROH Title run was the best to watch in comparison to any of Aj's Runs ever id put all of Dragon's matches with Nigel above any match aj ever had

 

a finer way for me to put this is I wager Dragon on the mat could Realistically have a classic with prime Volk Han in the RINGS style and fitting in with the Grade of the Tamura matches while I could never see aj doing that

 

I call the 1990's the golden age the only place I could see aj fitting back then would be AAA maybe as a member of Los Gringos Locos. while I could see Dragon fitting in anywhere from RINGS to M pro or anywhere in between even say FMW

[elliott]

I'm an outlier on pretty much all of these guys, but I'd figure I'd chime in anyway cuz I haven't been around in a while and I've missed yall.

 

I voted "yes," but I think he's better than Misawa/Kawada/Kobashi. Bret was also mentioned in the original post and I'd put Bryan ahead of him too. Shit, I'd put Bryan's WWE run alone ahead of Bret. Liger I think is the best of the guys mentioned and the only one I'd put ahead of Bryan for sure.

 

That said, I'm not confident Bryan would make my top 50 if we did GWE again. I made a top 100 list semi-recently to kinda see where I was at post GWE and before GME rolled out. Misawa & Kawada both missed my list and Bryan and Kobashi were both in the 50s pretty close to each other. I could kind of go either way on those two.

 

I think all of these guys mentioned are obviously super talented, but I wouldn't have any of them in the absolute top tier. But yeah, Bryan is at worst "on the level" of Misawa/Kawada/Kobashi, if not better.

[yesdanielbryan]

Elliot, why you don't consider Misawa/Kobashi/Kawada on Danielson's level?

[KB8]

 

 

I can't remember where I put him on my GWE ballot. I do consider him a 2nd tier worker though, outside the Top 10-20.

 

Better than Kobashi, but below Kawada. About the same level as Misawa.

 

It is curious that I don't remember his best match. I always say Danielson/Morishima, but I dunno how well that holds up.

 

FWIW, he is likely the best overall guy from 2002-his first retirement in a cakewalk.

 

This is almost word for word where I'm at with Bryan, though I'd probably go Danielson/Nigel from 6th Anniversary as his best match.

 

What would be your answer to the question of the poll?

 

 

Most likely 'Yes.'

 

I mean, I don't think Misawa/Kobashi/Kawada had a match three years into their career as good as Danielson/Ki's tapout match in JAPW, or a performance as good as Danielson's in that match (though one of the Kobashi/Hansen matches might've been close).

 

There's obviously more to this than being good young, but yeah, I guess in terms of talent I'd say he's there with those three.

[shodate]

 

 

 

I can't remember where I put him on my GWE ballot. I do consider him a 2nd tier worker though, outside the Top 10-20.

 

Better than Kobashi, but below Kawada. About the same level as Misawa.

 

It is curious that I don't remember his best match. I always say Danielson/Morishima, but I dunno how well that holds up.

 

FWIW, he is likely the best overall guy from 2002-his first retirement in a cakewalk.

 

This is almost word for word where I'm at with Bryan, though I'd probably go Danielson/Nigel from 6th Anniversary as his best match.

 

What would be your answer to the question of the poll?

 

 

Most likely 'Yes.'

 

I mean, I don't think Misawa/Kobashi/Kawada had a match three years into their career as good as Danielson/Ki's tapout match in JAPW, or a performance as good as Danielson's in that match (though one of the Kobashi/Hansen matches might've been close).

 

There's obviously more to this than being good young, but yeah, I guess in terms of talent I'd say he's there with those three.

 

you cannot judge that since how Japanese promotions work when workers are still young lions there not really given the time

[KB8]

I'm aware of how they work. The comparison's a little apples and oranges in some ways, but are you telling me you can't discern certain strengths and weaknesses - or even talent, I guess - from watching Japanese workers in the first few years of their career? Even in a promotion where the hierarchy was as rigid as All Japan's, people have written shit loads about how Kobashi looked like a prodigy a year in. You could see pretty early on that Naoki Sano was going to be good and I don't know if he won a match until year three. It didn't take long for it to look like Tamura was going to be shit hot. I've seen early Yoshida where she was already super fun. There are tonnes of examples.

 

Taking a little while longer to "get it" doesn't necessarily mean you're a less talented wrestler anyway, but my point wasn't so much about the comparison between Danielson and those three as opposed to the broader idea of Danielson clearly looking great relatively early in his career. Certainly as talented in some ways as Misawa/Kawada/Kobashi.

[Cap]

For the original question, I would say yes. Danielson is on the top tier (along with those AJPW guys and a number of others). Of course everything is about taste, but I have trouble really relating to anyone who doesn't think Danielson is at least in that conversation. To me, the fact that the question is even asked and doesn't seem like a joke is pretty indicative of just how good he really is.

 

I have always been a mark for Dragon. He was one of the primary reasons I got back into wrestling when I did and has been my favorite active wrestlers from probably 2002 or 2003 to when he retired. Oddly, my opinion of him has actually grown over the last 4 years or so since I have gotten more involved in deep dive projects and taken another look at his work with a more critical eye. I thought he was one of the most consistent wrestlers ever before, but i always felt he lacked true classics. After going back I think his high end stuff holds up even better than I thought. I actually have a higher opinion of some of his title defenses as i did before. His title win over Gibson remains one of the most underrated matches in my mind. His big clash with Strong was much better upon close scrutiny than I thought it would be. I could go on... but blah blah blah. You get the point. I've always liked him, but to this point his work holds up really well and I personally think he is better on a match to match level than I did probably 3-5 years ago.

 

 

As for the Styles comparison. It is far more interesting than it would have been when Dragon retired. Styles work also holds up pretty well (thought not quite as well to me) and he has obviously been one of the absolute best in the world since Dragon retired. In my mind, Dragon is the better wrestler and I don't really think twice about it, but I also think there are a hand full of wrestlers that are reasonably in the conversation for best modern wrestler and Styles is one of them, so I suppose it isn't a slam dunk.

[shodate]

I will be honest I was waiting for someone to make the ridiculous argument that he is the best of his generation in a cakewalk so that I could jump in when AJ Styles is clearly a better pro wrestler in almost every regard than Daniel Bryan. AJ is far better at everything I care about in pro wrestling. He constructs more interesting narratives with actual payoffs instead of just more highspots. AJ incorporates selling of both himself and his opponent better than Bryan. Bryan consistently blows off selling to get his shit in. He respects size differential better than Bryan. I don't normally care about this as much but AJ is far superior at execution. AJ is better at flying than Bryan and has more interesting highspots. The one thing Bryan is better at is the ground game, but AJ has really improved his game. AJ also was REALLY GOOD in 2002 also. I did a thread back in 2013 reviewing a lot of his TNA work showcasing that AJ was already insanely talented from that get go. I think because TNA marketed him as a flier he did not get his just due. He was able to convincingly brawl with Abyss but in a smart fashion respecting Abyss' size and coming up with creative ways to gain advantages. His work with Samoa Joe showcased how brilliantly he incorporates fatigue selling into his matches. There is a crazy random Bobby Roode match where AJ Styles puts on an Oscar winning knee selling performance that may be the greatest individual selling performance of all time. AJ Styles layers his matches so that his spots come across organically and is really good at making his bouts feel like two opponents STRUGGLING to win a match.

 

Plus AJ Styles clearly has the better punch, which we all know means he is the better pro wrestler.

 

Look, if you think Daniel Bryan is better that's fine. It just really gets my goat (pun fully intended) that people are still asserting this ridiculous notion that he is far and away the best of his generation. It is just point blank not true. AJ Styles has been in the conversation this whole time not just since 2014, but since 2000.

i full and deep-chested disagree for reason iv have stated previously Witch, in fact, no one has tried to debate me on

[Laz]

Nobody's tried to debate you because you readily admit your bias, namely your criteria for being great focusing solely on realism.

[Grimmas]

Nobody's tried to debate you because you readily admit your bias, namely your criteria for being great focusing solely on realism.

Yet the greatest wrestler ever to him is not Don Frye?

[shodate]

Nobody's tried to debate you because you readily admit your bias, namely your criteria for being great focusing solely on realism.

if its based on in-ring realism is important and everyone has there biases I also rate on technique hence in my post before i stated that Bryan could look good in the ring in RINGS style match with Prime Tamura or Volk Han while I wager Highly Aj would not

[Laz]

AJ could more than hold his own in the 02/03 indies working a stiff, more realistic style. Matches with LowKi, in particular, proved he can work that way (or at least hinted that he could learn it).

 

 

However, given that the focus of pro wrestling has switched from convincing the audience that they're watching genuine competition to presenting a hyperbolic and exciting performance, I don't think your criteria is a particularly great way of deciding AJ's value as a talent.

[shodate]

AJ could more than hold his own in the 02/03 indies working a stiff, more realistic style. Matches with LowKi, in particular, proved he can work that way (or at least hinted that he could learn it).

 

 

However, given that the focus of pro wrestling has switched from convincing the audience that they're watching genuine competition to presenting a hyperbolic and exciting performance, I don't think your criteria is a particularly great way of deciding AJ's value as a talent.

look at my top Han was never stiff per say i mean the realism of his mat work and grappling realism helps me buy into the work more simply put Epscplly realistic looking Matwork realistic looking striking is harder to pull off minus Chops

 

Dragon has more realistic looking and Tighter looking Matwork AJ was never top notch looking on the mat or are you going ot say it his at top 10-15 Pure matwork Guy you r free to hold that view not that i agree with that

 

and no way is Top 20 High Flyer or a top 30 even Bralwer

[Edwin]

look at my top Han was never stiff per say i mean the realism of his mat work and grappling realism helps me buy into the work more simply put Epscplly realistic looking Matwork realistic looking striking is harder to pull off minus Chops

Have you ever seen a non-worked grappling match?

 

Watch something from ADCC, for example, and compare that to the realistic looking mat work you keep brining up from Han's matches and you'll see the huge difference.

 

All the banana splits and contrived holds Han pulls of are almost impossible/very rare in grappling. And no, that's not a knock on Han, because I recognize his skill level, but it's just the reality of it.

 

And as I have expressed before in other threads, a lot of questionable transitions are done in shoot style (guys transitioning from full mounts into his opponents guard? guys transitioning from side guard to half guard? poorly executed kimura's and americana's are a dime a dozen, etc.), however if you take that into account you will see it's not as realistic looking as you make it out to be and thus it drowns down the enjoyment of the style.

 

I enjoy shoot style for what it is and try and ignore the glaring flaws in the grappling exchanges. I mean, do you really think Han could pull off a banana split in a real grappling exchange against another quality grappler? Obviously not. And again, that's not a knock on his ability, but it's just the reality of it. Heck, you don't even see high level skill grapplers pulling off banana splits against low level inexperienced grapplers and much less would you see a high level skill grappler pull it off as easily against another high quality grappler.

 

Edit: Yes, this is a pointless argument given the thread is about the Danielson, Misawa, Kobashi, Kawada, etc. comparison. And can you please stop brining up this realism talk and stop comparing everyone to Volk Han specially when it has nothing to do with the topic?