NintendoLogic Posted March 28, 2019 Report Share Posted March 28, 2019 15 hours ago, peachchaos said: and yet you're glued to every single move they make 14 hours ago, peachchaos said: Wow. So why are you even going this hard about it if you don't even watch? I certainly won't be debating this with any peripheral viewers, that's for sure! "If you hate WWE so much, why do you even watch?" "How can you criticize WWE when you don't even watch?" Under this formulation, who has standing to criticize WWE? It seems like you've got them coming and going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peachchaos Posted March 28, 2019 Report Share Posted March 28, 2019 1 hour ago, NintendoLogic said: "If you hate WWE so much, why do you even watch?" "How can you criticize WWE when you don't even watch?" Under this formulation, who has standing to criticize WWE? It seems like you've got them coming and going. It seems as if a lot of the noise is coming from a large group of non-viewers, so the first one doesn't even apply since they're not actually watching. A lot of people hate the WWE and will never enjoy the product. I get it. There are valid criticisms of the product and the corporation as a whole. Focusing on tiny insignificant storylines from a distance is useless. It's just internet noise at this point. If you really start critiquing the product as a whole, the last thing that would matter would be title changes and wrestling storylines. The announcers and production choices are enough to turn you away. Most of the year, outside of Rumble to Mania, I tune out because of those issues. And when I do tune in, I'm not expecting them to have fixed everything. I'm expecting to get the 2019 version of The Road. Has it been good wrestling, necessarily? I don't know, but it's been exciting and entertaining and that's what I come back for. There are so many other options for non-WWE wrestling right now that it's exhausting to read these same criticisms every week. If only people would get as vocal about stuff they do actually enjoy as they do the stuff they loathe. Like Orange Cassidy lighting the world on fire! But also, it's Christmas time and while I know Santa Claus ain't real, I'm in the spirit and there's a whole lotta Scrooge's out there right now. We are on The Road, people! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badlittlekitten Posted March 28, 2019 Report Share Posted March 28, 2019 Yep, the constant moaning is becoming unbearable. It’s a step up from the “I can’t wait to watch some more 1983 Mid South! “ comments the WWE threads get outside of Mania season. But I’m not sure what people moaning about a product they hardly watch brings to the table. “Seth Rollins isn’t over”, “Becky Lynch is ice cold” etc are clearly observations of somebody that isnt paying attention anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peachchaos Posted March 28, 2019 Report Share Posted March 28, 2019 The best possible way to do the 4 Horsewomen pose and avoid it turning into a kayfabe-killing curtain call would be to echo WMX and have Becky, Sasha, and Bayley celebrating with their belts and Charlotte on the outside looking in like Owen Hart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHawk Posted March 28, 2019 Report Share Posted March 28, 2019 Somebody gave me the "why do you watch if it's so bad" schtick. There are still good wrestling matches on the show most weeks. I want to support the talent I like. Even if I personally don't like a particular direction, if it can be explained logically, I can live with it. When you have something like the main event, and the logic went out the window six weeks ago, it's hard to get invested in the rest of the product. Seriously, tell me if I've missed anything in the women's buildup. 1. Becky wins Rumble and challenges Ronda. 2. Becky is suspended until she gets medically cleared. 3. Becky gets medically cleared and is reinstated. 4. Vince suspends Becky for following the stipulations of her reinstatement and gives Charlotte her spot at WrestleMania. 5. Stephanie says she can't overrule Vince's suspension. 6. Becky ignores her suspension and shows up every week anyway. 7. Ronda vacates title. 8. Stephanie lifts the suspension she said she couldn't lift and announces Charlotte vs. becky for the vacant title. 9. Ronda says "I didn't actually want to vacate the title" and Steph just goes "OK". 10. Steph announces Becky has to beat Charlotte to reenter the match she was already contractually guaranteed to have at WrestleMania, with Charlotte not risking anything. 11. Ronda wants Becky, so she helps Becky win to lessen Ronda's odds of keeping the title. 12. Becky wins a beat the clock challenge to earn...nothing. 13. Charlotte, having not had a match on SmackDown since prior to the Rumble, somehow gets a shot at the SmackDown Women's Title and wins. 14. Despite both titles being represented in the match, it's announced only Ronda's is on the line. 15. All three are scheduled to team together on Raw because....um....um... 16. Hopefully Becky wins clean? We're not here yet And I'm sure we're still adding one or two things to that. Everything after Becky's initial reinstatement is overkill, and some of it flat out contradicts other portions of the story. How this story would have been better served. 1. Becky wins Rumble and challenges Ronda 2. They cut a bunch of promos on each other while remaining on their separate shows. 3. On the go-home Raw, they engage in a fairly brief pull apart. 4. Becky wins clean. If Charlotte HAS to be involved, have her goad Becky into a match at Fastlane that ends in some sort of schmozz. It really seems like they felt they had to add a million twists and turns when one (or none) would have made the match hotter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badlittlekitten Posted March 28, 2019 Report Share Posted March 28, 2019 Exactly. It's shit. Like a lot of other big match builds have been. I feel like I've seen your post, about how needlessly convoluted it's been, about 200 times across the internet in the last month and similar voiced by wrestling fans everywhere. It's been argued to death. Not even argued, really, because almost everyone agrees that it's been shit. We're going round a hamster wheel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummer Posted March 28, 2019 Report Share Posted March 28, 2019 'it's been mentioned before but if they go out there and tear the house down (which is pretty much assured) and we get the cathartic ending (which is pretty much assured) then people will probably forget the sub par build. ala Rock/Austin at 17 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted March 28, 2019 Report Share Posted March 28, 2019 1 hour ago, JHawk said: Seriously, tell me if I've missed anything in the women's buildup. Becky lost to Asuka by tapping clean in the middle at Royal Rumble. Becky then had to get into the Rumble in the first place by taking Lana's spot. To get #28 in the match, which she wasn't in, to go on & win. Asuka then never had another match. Wasn't on the Elimination Chamber PPV. Becky, a Smackdown wrestler, was the #1 contender to the RAW women's title. Then Charlotte, after losing every match in 2019, gets a title shot against Asuka because reasons & wins the Smackdown women's title. Even if you take out all of the Ronda shit it STILL doesn't make sense. Asuka is an afterthought. Charlotte was shoehorned in. Ronda is a star that is leaving. Becky caught fire with the crowd. And this is the best they could come up with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KawadaSmile Posted March 28, 2019 Report Share Posted March 28, 2019 3 minutes ago, Coffey said: Becky lost to Asuka by tapping clean in the middle at Royal Rumble. Becky then had to get into the Rumble in the first place by taking Lana's spot. To get #28 in the match, which she wasn't in, to go on & win. Asuka then never had another match. Wasn't on the Elimination Chamber PPV. Becky, a Smackdown wrestler, was the #1 contender to the RAW women's title. Then Charlotte, after losing every match in 2019, gets a title shot against Asuka because reasons & wins the Smackdown women's title. Even if you take out all of the Ronda shit it STILL doesn't make sense. Asuka is an afterthought. Charlotte was shoehorned in. Ronda is a star that is leaving. Becky caught fire with the crowd. And this is the best they could come up with. Asuka did defend her title at Fastlane, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadaveri Posted March 28, 2019 Report Share Posted March 28, 2019 23 hours ago, Jesse Ewiak said: Also, yes, @DMJ, they're totally going to break kayfabe because that's what happens at the end of every big Women's match in WWE, since the first big NXT matches. I cannot think of a single WWE women's match where this happened except for the NXT Brooklyn 1 match. The closest thing was maybe Alexa's promo after the first Elimination Chamber, but that was just fake-out so not really. Weird talking point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alucard Posted March 28, 2019 Report Share Posted March 28, 2019 3 hours ago, Coffey said: Becky lost to Asuka by tapping clean in the middle at Royal Rumble. Becky then had to get into the Rumble in the first place by taking Lana's spot. To get #28 in the match, which she wasn't in, to go on & win. Awful. Can't take Becky seriously as the supposed biggest threat to undefeated Ronda Rousey. Wish it was Asuka vs Ronda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SomethingSavage Posted March 28, 2019 Report Share Posted March 28, 2019 8 hours ago, NintendoLogic said: "If you hate WWE so much, why do you even watch?" "How can you criticize WWE when you don't even watch?" Under this formulation, who has standing to criticize WWE? It seems like you've got them coming and going. Exactly. Just to be clear, there's this useful little resource called YouTube. On their own channel, they post clips and 5-minute reviews of their shows. Everything significant (and even some extra stuff that, ya know, isn't) can be found in those. Saves time. We don't all want to spend 3-15 hours of our free time every week following WWE television. Hard to imagine for some, I know. But this isn't my livelihood. It is, was, and forever will be a hobby. It isn't an obligation. There's no delusion here either. I've never claimed to boycott WWE or pretended that I'm not keeping up. At the end of the day, I'm a fucking fan for life. I was bit by the wrestling bug at a young age & will likely never fall out of love with it. That's perhaps the most disappointing part. That's why I speak with such frustration when they constantly get in their own way and fuck up even the simplest stuff. Things are gift-wrapped and given to them, and they still manage to screw it up. I'm not some child, sitting over here with my fingers crossed, hoping they'll fail. I want them to succeed. I want them to produce good television. I want them to trip over SOMETHING that works before they manage to fuck it all up. They just don't. And yeah. Obviously there are things I like. I've enjoyed the Daniel Bryan promos immensely. The Kofi redemption project has been startling, unexpected, and a totally welcomed surprise. Bits of the Angle farewell tour have held my attention, even if it is spotlighting a broken down version of the guy. It's still an actual STORY with purpose and direction at its core. I appreciate all that. But their booking is trash. You can diminish my thoughts or opinions as much as you want, but speculating that I'm somehow unqualified to weigh in on the issue just means you're more misinformed than me, basically. One doesn't need to watch every second of their dreadful 3-hour shows to know the BOOKING sucks. If I was talking about the wrestling itself, then yeah. You'd be right. But the booking? I can gather all that from what I do watch. If it takes watching every single second of their TV for some of you to realize it isn't very good, then that's cool. We all work at our own pace. The point someone made about the actual wrestling being great was never anything I even mentioned. As I mentioned, I've only watched a few full shows from them in years. But I have made it a point to cherry pick & select certain matches to watch - a lot of AJ, most of Ronda, D-Bry, and now recently the series of gauntlet matches on Smackdown this year. But that's the thing. The matches are often HURT and hindered by the horrible booking anyhow. They just can't seem to get out of their own way. The best stuff in the company are the things beyond their control (Miz promos, Bryan rants, individual performances, etc.) or the instances where the talent has more influence in crafting their stuff (Bryan/Kofi clearly). Every time they get their hands on something (Becky/Ronda/Charlotte being the peak example), they muddy it up and make it a cluttered, convoluted mess. Booking is supposed to be about cooking up situations and angles that enhance the anticipation & heighten the suspense. Their booking does the opposite of all that. It dampens excitement. It downplays stakes. It diminishes characters. The wrestling can be amazing, and the booking can still suck. Those two things are not necessarily married to one another. Of course the ideal situation is when they both hit. But you're fooling yourself if you're actually convinced THIS is any example of that. I'm sorry if somebody has to watch 15 hours of something every week to notice it sucks. I really am. But I'm here to tell you it does. No big deal. That's just me looking out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZThomas Posted March 29, 2019 Report Share Posted March 29, 2019 5 hours ago, Strummer said: 'it's been mentioned before but if they go out there and tear the house down (which is pretty much assured) and we get the cathartic ending (which is pretty much assured) then people will probably forget the sub par build. ala Rock/Austin at 17 That Sitdown Promo with JR is the only thing that sticks with me about that build. I forgot that Vince made Debra the Rocks Valet. Alot of the shit in the build to the 3 way will be forgotten before the match and the atmosphere will be lit one the match starts. I doubt we get a curtain call at the end. If we do Charlotte will turn heel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZThomas Posted March 29, 2019 Report Share Posted March 29, 2019 On 3/27/2019 at 2:00 PM, El-P said: Charlotte didn't need the belt at all. It just bumps Asuka off Mania. It's stupid and needless I agree , but I've said before they having put any steam on Asuka at all since after RR. If she did have a match it wouldn't have gotten much time. When she won the title at TLC , alot of people were bringing up that fact that some of the audience had written her off after she lost at WM to Charlotte only for Charlotte to drop the title 2 days later. After TLC fans were saying that people were getting carried away about criticizing the use of Asuka. She had a good match with Beck at RR that led to Becky winning the RR but other than that she's been just a Placeholder for title after WM when Charlotte and Becky and Ronda go back to their prospective brands. It was a last minute decision for Asuka to drop the title on SDLive. Her Mania match probably wouldn't have made the Main show so I dont understand the heat for Charlotte winning. All other the other over females are booked in more featured matches. If they had her vs Alexa, I could see the anger or Maybe have her run through Lacy Evans but knowing WWE they wouldve wanted too much offense from Evan's for it to be fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted March 29, 2019 Report Share Posted March 29, 2019 The elephant in the room is that WWE has always only been able to book one women's program at a time, and anything else gets lost in the shuffle. This time they have the tag belts to help allay that somewhat, but anyone not in the mix for those or in the WM main just gets left behind. Even someone like Lacey Evans, who they clearly like for probably the usual Vince reasons, has not been given anything to do as of yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted March 29, 2019 Report Share Posted March 29, 2019 I totally think this Lacey stuff is to get audiences ready for her coming on strong after Mania. It's a great slow way to introduce her and she'll be a player after Mania. She's already great at everything that actually matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted March 29, 2019 Report Share Posted March 29, 2019 14 hours ago, NintendoLogic said: "If you hate WWE so much, why do you even watch?" "How can you criticize WWE when you don't even watch That's such a lame way to legitimize dumb behavior ." If you don't like a TV show, why would you watch it?" and "If you aren't watching it, why are you commenting on it"? aren't crazy questions. From 1989 through 2005 I was one of the biggest Simpsons fans alive. I had every book and never missed an episode. Then I slowly realized I wasn't liking it anymore. I stopped watching it. If I went on Simpsons message boards to complain about a show I didn't watch anymore, I'd kill myself once I realized what I was doing. "I haven't watched Simpsons for years, here's my hot take on it." See how dumb that is? Only dumber thing would be me watching every week and hating it, even if a joke or two landed for me. Focus on what you like, not what you don't like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted March 29, 2019 Report Share Posted March 29, 2019 Pro-wrestling fans commenting about the #1 pro-wrestling promotion having the #1 pro-wrestling show of the year on a pro-wrestling board is crazy behaviour, I know... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seabs Posted March 29, 2019 Report Share Posted March 29, 2019 The argument should be you’re not in a position to criticise if you don’t FOLLOW the shows week to week, not if you don’t watch them. There’s a massive difference. I don’t watch anymore outside of most of the PPV matches and if something gets rave reviews on TV (I’m a sucker for a mystery tease too even if I know the payoff will be lame). But I do follow what happens meticulously. That puts me in an informed position to have a valid opinion on the booking. Now if I was to say that Match X sucked and I didn’t even watch it, THEN that argument of you don’t watch so you can’t criticise would be totally valid. The reaction to the Charlotte title win is weird too. Everyone will moan about Mania being too long and having too many matches. They take the title off of Asuka to create one less match on the card snd everyone moans it’s unfair to Asuka to lose her spot on the card. It’s bullshit that they book nearly everyone to be on the main card, but that only counts if it’s not someone I like. Obviously Asuka deserves a marquee Mania match based on talent but nobody needed to see her vs any of the potential opponents she had. Mania being 15 minutes shorter because there’s no Asuka/Mandy match is a good thing. Charlotte winning the other title isn’t the problem. The problem is them leaving it this late. Rumble should have been Charlotte/Asuka with Charlotte winning the belt and Becky winning the Rumble minus the tainted overbooking. Then you work towards Becky challenging both Ronda and Charlotte. Make it for both belts too and give Becky the Conor rub of walking round with two titles. She can get screwed out of one relatively quicker by the heel chalenging for the other title and everything goes back to normal quickly thereafter. I really hope they don’t end up having Becky get the fall on Charlotte to win the SD Title as a copout win and keep the belt on Ronda if she doesn’t actually end up taking time off. That will be such a deflating ending and create so much bad will with fans already annoyed they added Charlotte to the match. The 3 way is the right match as evident by how angry it’s made everyone. It hasn’t lost them interest in the match (other stuff has but not the addition of Charlotte) and it’s added more heat to the angle. This is all under the assumption that Becky beats Ronda though. Anything else and all the praise becomes invalid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted March 29, 2019 Report Share Posted March 29, 2019 1 hour ago, Seabs said: Mania being 15 minutes shorter because there’s no Asuka/Mandy match is a good thing. Except : _Mania won't be 15 minutes shorter, they will just make the HHH match longer or have another bullshit segment with Elias or Lacy Evans walking down the ramp and going back up. _at this point, Mania is too ridiculously long anyway, when you reach 7 hours, 15 minutes more or less is irrelevant. If you consider worthless workers like Corbin, Jaxx & Tamina working the main card, it kinda sucks for Asuka she can't get a spot when she was positioned as her brand's champion. 1 hour ago, Seabs said: The argument should be you’re not in a position to criticise if you don’t FOLLOW the shows week to week, not if you don’t watch them. There’s a massive difference. Totally agree. Especially when it comes to booking and business decisions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummer Posted March 29, 2019 Report Share Posted March 29, 2019 Linda McMahon stepping down from the Trump administration: https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/29/politics/linda-mcmahon-small-business-administration/index.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peachchaos Posted March 29, 2019 Report Share Posted March 29, 2019 4 hours ago, El-P said: Totally agree. Especially when it comes to booking and business decisions. No way. You can't just read the synopsis of a TV show and then judge it. You have to see every episode for yourself. The best parts of pro wrestling have absolutely NOTHING to do with booking decisions. It comes from sitting there and watching a match and interacting with the live audience. Even the performances are only validated when the crowd participates. I'd venture to say many wrestling fans have never even seen Goldberg-Nash. They just know it was a "bad booking decision" so therefore it must be trash. But it's not at all. It's a red hot crowd split 50/50 that pops HUGE for Nash's win. You can whine and argue as a fan all you want and it won't change what the actual footage shows. If you're just "following along" you missed the overwhelming pop Charlotte's title win received. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted March 29, 2019 Report Share Posted March 29, 2019 5 minutes ago, peachchaos said: No way. You can't just read the synopsis of a TV show and then judge it. You have to see every episode for yourself. "If you don't listen to entire 4hours podcast series about Ric Flair, you can't comment about Ric Flair in the thread" Yeah, that's about the same thing… Of course, witnessing the execution can change the perception a bit, but still, you can absolutely comment on booking without having to subdue yourself to a hundred hours of dreadfull WWE programs every week. 6 minutes ago, peachchaos said: The best parts of pro wrestling have absolutely NOTHING to do with booking decisions. Of course they totally have. The G1 Climax last year was only the best series of pro-wrestling matches ever because the booking made the entire thing even better. To say booking has nothing to do with why pro-wrestling can reach greatness makes no sense whatsoever. Just watch a bunch of matches in a vacuum then, which basically seems like the only way to be able to enjoy the really good in-ring matches WWE presents anyway at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted March 29, 2019 Report Share Posted March 29, 2019 19 minutes ago, peachchaos said: I'd venture to say many wrestling fans have never even seen Goldberg-Nash. They just know it was a "bad booking decision" so therefore it must be trash. But it's not at all. It's a red hot crowd split 50/50 that pops HUGE for Nash's win. Sorry but, WTF does it has to do with anything ? First, it's only one of the most in-famous matches of one the hottest period ever in US pro-wrestling, so yeah, most people of that generation probably have seen it. Second, it did kill the golden goose dead, Goldy never recovered. Sure got a pop, and the match sure was pretty good. And ? What's the point ? Charlotte got a big pop ? Sure. She's terrific and she's over. And ? So what ? It's still useless to put the belt on her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted March 29, 2019 Report Share Posted March 29, 2019 1 hour ago, Strummer said: Linda McMahon stepping down from the Trump administration: https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/29/politics/linda-mcmahon-small-business-administration/index.html "acted as a proponent for the Republican tax cut package" No shit, considering how much money that trick made for her family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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