Comments that don't warrant a thread

[El-P]

FTR Bobby said many times in interviews that Rude wasn't a big fan of working with him as he thought Bobby was detrimental to his character and taking too much heat on himself. Although I don't agree 100% and I did like the Heenan/Rude combo, I do agree Rude didn't need anyone to get over big. He was at his best in WCW when he was alone.

[jdw]

What need to be added to the Rude-Bobby discussion is that it was an era where far more heels were paired with managers than probably any other era. Rude was in a long stretch of being paired with managers, in WCCW, in Crockett, in the WWF and with Heyman when returning to WCW. It just was common.

 

I think when one looks at that period, the pairing with Heenan actually was the most effective. Paul Jones sucked. I don't think Rude was close to his peak on the mic, but Jones was a terrible manager.

 

My issue with Heyman in 1992 was that he was something of a later 70s / early 80s WWF-style heel manager where he focused the heat in interviews on himself rather than his wrestlers, even when the wrestlers could work the mic. He felt a bit like an Albano who thought he manager chum tag champs who would be gone within 9-12 months while he'd still be there anchoring the tag division. That's a problem by the early 90s when you're managing someone who has a 3-4 year contract, it a top heel for the company and is projected to be for several years... the heat needs to be on the *worker* if the heel is able to draw it.

 

It was a strange contrast to Heenan, as while Bobby was something of a top anchor heel in the WWF often charged with guys who needed his help, he always seemed to put more heat on Rude than he did on himself. He seemed to know that he was getting plenty of heat by his wide range of appearances on WWF programing & events not just manging a variety of wrestlers, but also as a commentator. Paul... he just sucked it down a rabbit hole when working with a top heel.

 

John

[ohtani's jacket]

He was at his best in WCW when he was alone.

Rude was Heyman in WCW for the better part of his run.

 

Maybe I'm reading this wrong. Are you saying he was better in WCW after he split with Heyman?

[El-P]

He was at his best in WCW when he was alone.

Rude was Heyman in WCW for the better part of his run.

 

Maybe I'm reading this wrong. Are you saying he was better in WCW after he split with Heyman?

 

Yeah, I always thought Rude really didn't need a manager. I don't remember exactly how long he actually worked alone in WCW, but he was perfectly fine without Bobby or Heyman. Not to say I think these pairings didn't work, because they did, but Rude never struck me as a guy who really needed a manager at all (not talking about his early days here).

[goodhelmet]

JImmy Hart in Memphis is the greatest manager of all time.

[Log]

Also to respond to Loss, I don't feel that Rude's WWF career was his best stuff. I enjoyed his WCW and Memphis stuff alot more. I could never buy him as anyone serious in the WWF.

Gorilla making fun of his height probably didn't help. Although that stopped around late 88 or so.

 

Monsoon made fun of Rude's height? I always thought Rude was a pretty tall guy.

[S.L.L.]

Agreed that Heenan was key in getting Flair over.

 

That said, I think the Heenan association contributed to Flair being just another new guy over the long haul, because being paired with Heenan was just something every incoming heel who wasn't a steroid monster did at the time.

 

Flair could do interviews and I have trouble accepting that the WWF audience didn't know him, as aside from Hogan and maybe Savage, he was easily the biggest star in wrestling at the time.

 

But that's really more of a booking point than a wrestling point. Heenan definitely worked hard to help Ric get over in the WWF, and deserves credit for that. I think his greater contributions even in that came from his work at the broadcast booth during Flair's matches, far more than anything he might have done at ringside on a few house shows here and there.

As a guy who became a wrestling fan in '91, and who was strictly a WWF guy until I got the internet and Nitro hit the air, I can say from my own experience that while I knew Flair's name and knew he was kind of a big deal, it was Heenan's work in the build-up to Flair's arrival that hammered home just how big of a deal he was. I grant you that I'm an unusual case, coming into the fandom at a time when most people were leaving it, and missing the previous boom completely. If I had come in in the 80's, even if I was still just a WWF guy, I probably would have gotten the significance of Flair even without Heenan's help.

 

As to Heenan's WWF work in general, on a similar note as what John was saying, it's worth nothing that the WWF, pretty much since it's inception, was a promotion built around the formula of a dominant top face wrestler opposed by a dominant top heel manager bringing in his various henchmen to do his dirty work for him. The standard logic of using a manager as a guy who can provide a mouthpiece to wrestlers who can't talk was often there, but for the most part, I think it was really just about having a constant arch-villain at the top of the card while still providing the face champion with a steady diet of face challengers. Heenan wasn't attached to Bundy, Andre, Rude, and Flair because they needed his help getting over. Heenan was attached to them because he was the successor to the Three Wise Men, and these were the guys who were going to bring him the gold. Did they need Heenan's seal of approval? Not really. Bundy, Rude, and Flair were all perfectly capable of handling themselves on the mic, and Hogan/Andre is a match that sells itself. But the formula called for an evil mastermind - a "brain" if you will - to call the shots for the heels. It's a good formula, and Heenan was great in it. I think it's kinda telling that the company's big down periods coincided with them struggling to pull it off (mid-90's, where it kinda looked like they wanted Cornette in that role, but just couldn't make it happen) or abandoned it altogether (the past decade, with Triple H completely tossing every idea the WWF had been built on out the window so he could cosplay as an NWA touring heel champion).

 

All that being said '89-'91 was a period where Heenan had largely ceased to be critical in that role. He was critical with Flair, but that not only seemed to be the exception, but also coincided with his retirement as a ringside manager. Heenan spent '89 in the midcard while Hogan feuded with Savage and Zeus (manged by Sherri...hmmmm....). He came back to the forefront in 1990 after Warrior became champ, but it just didn't take. I don't think that's really Heenan's fault, mind you. The standard story that Warrior squashed so many potential challengers en route to the top that he didn't have any new compelling ones when he got there seems to be right. But Heenan couldn't save it. And in '91, he was great with Flair, but he retired as a manager. Career vs. career, he's clearly a better manager than Sherri, but just looking at '89-'91, it's a draw at worst, and certainly not unreasonable to put Sherri ahead. And as a "worker", it's Sherri all the way.

 

And yes, Jimmy Hart is Memphis is the greatest manager of all time.

[S.L.L.]

Also to respond to Loss, I don't feel that Rude's WWF career was his best stuff. I enjoyed his WCW and Memphis stuff alot more. I could never buy him as anyone serious in the WWF.

Gorilla making fun of his height probably didn't help. Although that stopped around late 88 or so.

 

Monsoon made fun of Rude's height? I always thought Rude was a pretty tall guy.

 

Billed at 6'3", which is about average for a WWF/E guy.

[Tim Cooke]

Yea, Jimmy Hart is my favorite. If there is no Hart, there is no Cornette. The Jimmy Hart running away from guys at sprinters speed is highly entertaining. Many Memphis matches were just based around faces chasing Hart and the Family around the ring in between in-ring action.

[Al]

I can't see Sherri as the best worker. But best manager, absolutely. Her bumping during Michaels/Martel at Summerslam '92 is a thing of beauty.

[Bob Morris]

Agreed that Sherri, while not the best manager in terms of overall career, was the best manager from 89-92. Whether or not Heenan could bump around the ring at that point, Sherri was doing a lot to get matches and feuds over.

 

Comparing overall careers, sure, Heenan would have the advantage. Just not during the 89-92 time period.

 

And agreed about Jimmy Hart. While I haven't watched his Memphis stuff, his managerial schitck in WWF was always entertaining and did a lot to help other guys. He was a natural fit with Honky Tonk Man, he was the right guy to get the Hart Foundation when Bret Hart couldn't do a promo to save his life and Jim Neidhart was limited, and while I know Danny Davis was an integral part of a Hart Foundation storyline, I doubt Davis would have kept much of his heat after that storyline ran its course without Jimmy Hart doing his thing.

[Beast]

The Heenan - Bossman storyline, the beginning of Heenan/Flair, Heenan's Team vs the Warrior, and even Heenan vs. Red Rooster were all entertaining angles. I don't see where people are getting the impression that Heenan was done by this time. Yeah I guess comparing him to his prime, he was off a mark, but his promos were still great and I can't see how Sherri bumped any better or more than he did. He was all over the place during this period and wrestled at least as many if not more matches as a manager as she did (Not counting her feud with Rockin' Robin in 89). I'll have to watch some of this stuff over but I've never gotten the impression he couldn't bump by this time. Like I said, his match vs. Bossman in 1991 was just Bossman throwing Heenan around.

 

Anyway, since when do bumps make someone better than someone else? For a manager I'd think promo ability would be more important and Heenan's promos in 1989-1991 were top notch.

[Johnny Sorrow]

 

From the ads at WO. RF...you the man.

[rovert]

Been out for a while, haven’t got a copy yet?

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/rfvideo1#p/u/2/nFohK2NGAec

 

Looks a howl just look at Scott Hall.

 

On a related note the Raven/Dreamer shoot is very disappointing. Nothing but ground Raven has already covered in his zillion shoot interviews. Dreamer putting Feinstein in his place about the quality of his shoots and his "huh" tick is funny though.

[El-P]

...Triple H completely tossing every idea the WWF had been built on out the window so he could cosplay as an NWA touring heel champion).

Greatest line about old Trippy in a long long time.

[ohtani's jacket]

I had no idea Adrian Adonis was immortalised in a back-up story in Love and Rockets.

 

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_kZ6kU5rMhwA/Sdjw...6R16_page31.jpg

[Bix]

Jaime Hernandez and his brothers are pretty big wrestling fans.

[Strummer]

Just watching the Wrestlemania rountable and did CNN actually report the results of WM 3 on air? Michael Hayes mentioned this.

[Log]

Just watching the Wrestlemania rountable and did CNN actually report the results of WM 3 on air? Michael Hayes mentioned this.

I do remember seeing it on Entertainment Tonight and some local news sources. I really wouldn't be surprised if it was on CNN. It got quite a bit of mainstream media coverage.

[goodhelmet]

And agreed about Jimmy Hart. While I haven't watched his Memphis stuff, his managerial schitck in WWF was always entertaining and did a lot to help other guys. He was a natural fit with Honky Tonk Man, he was the right guy to get the Hart Foundation when Bret Hart couldn't do a promo to save his life and Jim Neidhart was limited, and while I know Danny Davis was an integral part of a Hart Foundation storyline, I doubt Davis would have kept much of his heat after that storyline ran its course without Jimmy Hart doing his thing.

If you haven't seen his Memphis stuff, you haven't seen Jimmy Hart.

[rovert]

Jaime Hernandez and his brothers are pretty big wrestling fans.

Kind of odd they picked him and not a Lucha character, no? He says xenophobicly.

[Dylan Waco]

The Heenan - Bossman storyline, the beginning of Heenan/Flair, Heenan's Team vs the Warrior, and even Heenan vs. Red Rooster were all entertaining angles. I don't see where people are getting the impression that Heenan was done by this time. Yeah I guess comparing him to his prime, he was off a mark, but his promos were still great and I can't see how Sherri bumped any better or more than he did. He was all over the place during this period and wrestled at least as many if not more matches as a manager as she did (Not counting her feud with Rockin' Robin in 89). I'll have to watch some of this stuff over but I've never gotten the impression he couldn't bump by this time. Like I said, his match vs. Bossman in 1991 was just Bossman throwing Heenan around.

 

Anyway, since when do bumps make someone better than someone else? For a manager I'd think promo ability would be more important and Heenan's promos in 1989-1991 were top notch.

 

Don't recall anyone saying bumps made one person better than another. Though I think when talking about who is a better "worker" bumps are more important than mic skills for obvious reasons.

[S.L.L.]

The Heenan - Bossman storyline, the beginning of Heenan/Flair, Heenan's Team vs the Warrior, and even Heenan vs. Red Rooster were all entertaining angles. I don't see where people are getting the impression that Heenan was done by this time.

That one is really stretching it. And personally, I get the impression that Heenan was done by this time because he retired. I don't think the guy who retired being done is really up to debate. Before that, he wasn't bad by any means, but definitely past his prime as a manager, while Sherri was just hitting hers.

 

Yeah I guess comparing him to his prime, he was off a mark, but his promos were still great and I can't see how Sherri bumped any better or more than he did. He was all over the place during this period and wrestled at least as many if not more matches as a manager as she did (Not counting her feud with Rockin' Robin in 89). I'll have to watch some of this stuff over but I've never gotten the impression he couldn't bump by this time. Like I said, his match vs. Bossman in 1991 was just Bossman throwing Heenan around.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GCAOnTPATk

 

Well, it's a bigger bump than I thought he was capable of taking in 1991. That said, it was just one bump, not one of the bigger ones of his career, and he retired shortly afterwords specifically because he was so banged up by this point. He certainly wasn't going to out-bump Sherri.

 

Anyway, since when do bumps make someone better than someone else? For a manager I'd think promo ability would be more important and Heenan's promos in 1989-1991 were top notch.

The whole argument starter here was the claim that Sherri was the best "worker" in the WWF between '89 and '91. Quote Loss:

 

When someone starts jumping off the top rope, taking bumps from the apron to the floor, and performing wrestling moves, she crosses the line from manager to worker, even if she is not officially in the match. I consider anyone who works in front of a live crowd a worker (announcers, referees, managers), but I put Sherri in the same group with other wrestlers since she was professionally trained, and also was far more physically active than any other manager ever was.

The focus is on bumping because that's the terms of the argument put forward.

 

When looking at the larger issue of who was the better manager, mic skills are important, but not the be all-end all. What managers do when they're actually at ringside counts for a lot. Both Sherri and Heenan tended to get very physically involved in their charges' matches, and both were great at it, but by the time period in question Heenan had to dial back his physical involvement - and ultimately retire - because his body just couldn't take it anymore.

[jdw]

On the WM3 / CNN "results", I suspect it was limited to the main event, possibly Piper-Adonis, and possibly Savage-Steamer. Most likely just the main event, and the size of the crowd.

 

I recall a few other Manias popping up on Sports Center or elsewhere in the 80s, again the focus just on Hogan's match.

 

John

[Matt D]

Neither here nor there, but they had to put Paul Bearer with Taker in order to make him LESS scary with the kids, right? Because he was terrifying with Brother Love at his side. You would just see the looks on the faces of the kids. Brother Love seemed to become something else entirely when he was no longer the self-aggrandizing grating interviewer and instead this religious zealot who controlled this undead golem of doom.