Is the empire crumbling before our eyes?

[El-P]

The "this is something we don't stand for or condone" phrasing is awkward as fuck, but there you go. 

I just remembered that Laurinaitis actually married the Bella twins mother. Jeeez. Poor women.

[El-P]

Wow indeed.

This entire place needs to be nuked.

[NintendoLogic]

What are Danielson's thoughts on this? For that matter, what did he know? Not only is Laurinaitis his father-in-law, he has described Vince as someone he loves and was part of the WWE creative team.

[DMJ]

37 minutes ago, NintendoLogic said:

What are Danielson's thoughts on this? For that matter, what did he know? Not only is Laurinaitis his father-in-law, he has described Vince as someone he loves and was part of the WWE creative team.

I'm hopeful that Danielson, like most everyone else on the roster - Rollins, Becky, Bayley, Heyman, Sami - thinks that Vince is a disgusting human being and will no longer try to defend him.

But unless they knew the extent of Vince's behaviors, specifically gaslighting his victims, psychologically torturing them, forcing his victims to engage in extreme sex, then their defenses of Vince over the years have always been based on the willing naivete that Vince is a womanizer and a tyrannical boss and that he engaged in shady business dealings and could be cruel, but that he wasn't a criminal. That he wasn't as deplorable, as inhumane, as horrible as he seemed on TV.

And, in this profession, unless you wanted to devote the majority of your career to working overseas, they knew that, for the past 30 years, you essentially needed to work for him to "make it." And that means you also have to develop some cognitive dissonance.

This is also why, one point I haven't seen brought up much is that despite guys like Bret Hart, CM Punk, and countless others leaving the company with what seemed like vehement disgust with Vince, we still never got these tales. Which either means that, for all their hatred for Vince, they viewed sharing these details as one step too far or that, maybe more realistically, they simply didn't know.

I mean, Bret's book is a pretty scathing indictment of Vince...and it doesn't contain a single word about him cheating on his wife (eventhough Vince himself was open years earlier in the Playboy interview about sleeping with other women). 

[El-P]

The French movie industry knew about Gerard Depardieu. Hollywood knew about Harvey Weinstein. There's no reason to think that the knowledge about Vince's crimes, to some extent (not every awful details), weren't pretty much known on some sort of broad level.

And there's also this thing called rape culture, which is everywhere in society. People just don't talk because it's not seen as such big deals. And you see comments like this everywhere. "Oh but she got paid". "Oh but she had to enjoy it to some extent" (yeah, go fuck yourself Jim Cornette, you piece of shit). "Oh but why didn't she talked about it sooner". And the usual shit of the same ilk.

So yes, it's a giant stain on not only on the WWE, but the pro-wrestling landscape (which always sucked, let's be real) as a whole. Which is why people need to speak the fuck up. if this just goes on the way of "Well, Vince isn't there anyway, lawsuit gets settled, everything fine now", then the entire thing is just rotting from the inside. 

[Coffey]

6 minutes ago, El-P said:

There's also this thing called rape culture, which is everywhere in society. People just don't talk because it's not seen as such big deals. And you see comments like this everywhere. "Oh but she got paid". "Oh but she had to enjoy it to some extent". "Oh but why didn't she talked about it sooner". And the usual shit of the same ilk.

The amount of hand-waving shit like this I've read & heard the last month online has been immeasurable. I don't know what it is about wrestling fans but a lot of them are so deep in the bubble that their first inclination is always to defend the person in wrestling. Sometimes though you get situations like when the rumored Jericho/Kylie Rae story came out & even though it's between two people within in the business you still get comments like that. Shit like "well she was probably trying to get a push" like, what?

"Well if she didn't like it, why didn't she quit?" I've seen that one probably a dozen fucking times at this point. 

[El-P]

19 minutes ago, Coffey said:

The amount of hand-waving shit like this I've read & heard the last month online has been immeasurable. I don't know what it is about wrestling fans but a lot of them are so deep in the bubble that their first inclination is always to defend the person in wrestling. Sometimes though you get situations like when the rumored Jericho/Kylie Rae story came out & even though it's between two people within in the business you still get comments like that. Shit like "well she was probably trying to get a push" like, what?

Yeah, it's infuriating. Sadly it's really not a pro-wrestling thing. it's the same discourse everywhere. And people wonders why victims don't talk. 

[TheDuke]

30 minutes ago, El-P said:

Yeah, it's infuriating. Sadly it's really not a pro-wrestling thing. it's the same discourse everywhere. And people wonders why victims don't talk. 

Yeah that's not the wrestling bubble. That's our culture at large that has those kinds of opinions 

[KawadaSmile]

1 hour ago, El-P said:

The French movie industry knew about Gerard Depardieu. Hollywood knew about Harvey Weinstein. There's no reason to think that the knowledge about Vince's crimes, to some extent (not every awful details), weren't pretty much known on some sort of broad level.

I'm not sure if this is completely true, to be very honest. There was this one case about João de Deus, a psychic medium who even appeared on Oprah and had consultations with Bill Clinton during his tenure as president. He was in touch with many important names in the political and entertainment spheres

He, to the public eye, was a very popular and amicable guru, but then more and more accusations came forward, and everyone was shocked. He had a whopping SIX HUNDRED sexual abuse accusations against him, from 1986 to 2017. 

 

Point being is that while *someone* had to know, many people in this kind of position have more than enough means to silence and shut down anything negative about them for a long, long time. The manipulation of the flow of information, who gets to know what, things like that. In Vince's case, based on the files we have access to, we know there was an inner circle of high-ups, executives and at least one wrestler who knew what was up, but considering how many people, men and women, use the words "father figure" to describe Vince, it's also very much likely that he could just cultivate and portray a much more sympathetic persona.

 

6 minutes ago, TheDuke said:

Yeah that's not the wrestling bubble. That's our culture at large that has those kinds of opinions 

And this is also important: if those powerful people manage to keep that "cleaner" public image, then surely people would take a liking to them. If people like them, they will defend them against any sort of accusation, regardless of their weight and veracity.

João de Deus, going back to the example I gave, was BELOVED by millions and millions of people, seen as someone who could do no wrong. Shit, the name he used means "John of God." 

If victims are immediatly shot down by blind followers or direct action from their tormentors, how can they be heard?

[El-P]

13 minutes ago, KawadaSmile said:

The manipulation of the flow of information, who gets to know what, things like that. In Vince's case, based on the files we have access to, we know there was an inner circle of high-ups, executives and at least one wrestler who knew what was up, but considering how many people, men and women, use the words "father figure" to describe Vince, it's also very much likely that he could just cultivate and portray a much more sympathetic persona.

I'm not saying everybody knew, and especially everybody knew all the details of course. But for instance, when the Dominique Strauss-Khan scandal happened, it was already established publicly that he was, at the very least, a sex-addict who would go after women. Basically, a sex-predator. But it was way before #MeToo, and this kind of things was the butt of jokes in the medias (many of them making women kinda responsible of such behaviour, like "Hey, don't wear a skirt tomorrow, DSK is coming for an interview, lol", which is another layer of rape culture). So there was always *something* in the air about him. But the culture was what it was, just like "boys will be boys, ya know." Plus, there's no worse blind than the one who doesn't want to see. I'm sure not everybody knew and Vince, like every predator, was probably doing exactly what you describe in term of manipulation and isolating circles from one another. But still. I'm sure many, many, MANY people were at least aware of noises about this kind of stuff. Especially at the offices.

[El-P]

And to rebound on what's been said, RVD reacted on his podcast, pretty bewildered. And really, I doubt RVD was ever close to Vince McMahon, so there goes your kind of people I would totally believe had no idea.

However, one thing pretty interesting that he said apparently : "That's about Vince. I can't say anyone else mentioned would surprise me quite as much.". Says a whole lot about Laurinaitis, Lesnar, and those "unnamed office people" that are being pretty obvious to some people.

[The Man in Blak]

3 hours ago, Coffey said:

The amount of hand-waving shit like this I've read & heard the last month online has been immeasurable. I don't know what it is about wrestling fans but a lot of them are so deep in the bubble that their first inclination is always to defend the person in wrestling. Sometimes though you get situations like when the rumored Jericho/Kylie Rae story came out & even though it's between two people within in the business you still get comments like that. Shit like "well she was probably trying to get a push" like, what?

"Well if she didn't like it, why didn't she quit?" I've seen that one probably a dozen fucking times at this point. 

Setting aside the broader implications of rape culture outside of wrestling (which has already been mentioned), it's also momentarily terrifying for some wrestling fans (and people in the industry itself) to consider that their time, money and attention has contributed to an industry where these atrocities can take place.

It's the same way that people become reflexively defensive toward criticism of things that they like - there's a self-identification that's taking place with content in people who aren't consuming that content critically. People take it personally and are rarely willing to simply reckon with the moral implications, even if that reckoning is simply acknowledging that There's No Ethical Consumption Under Capitalism (tm); it's easier to square the circle and cynically assume the worst from a victim, rather than actually hearing them and believing them.

[C.S.]

11 hours ago, NintendoLogic said:

What are Danielson's thoughts on this?

Bryan is apparently a massive weirdo himself, and there was a very bizarre episode of Total Divas or Total Bellas where he wanted to start composting their own shit. 

Am I comparing him to Vince or saying he knew anything or shares any of Vince's fetishes? No, of course not. I'm simply pointing out that wrestlers have already spoken openly about Bryan's strange comments and jokes in the AEW locker room. It's all framed lovingly in the usual "boys will be boys" way, and I hope that's all it is, but Bryan is definitely a unique cat to put it charitably.

I mean, this is the same culture that praised Kane for being so smart and nice because "he reads books."

[Jmare007]

Bryan's "statement" is probably using the YES taunt all the time now. When got to AEW he said he didn't want to use it out of respect to WWE and Vince or some shit

I think people mix up Bryan being honest and willing to answer any question in interviews -specially when he was in WWE, were that kind of stuff wasn't the norm- to him being any sort of moral compass. I would be interested in someone once again asking him about Vince to see if he has an honest answer or if he just asks the interviewer to not talk about the subject.

The Bellas statement is weird as fuck because Laurinaitis is their step dad and he's mentioned as an active participant in A LOT of Vince's abusive behavior.

[sek69]

The Bellas are in an especially tough spot not only because of the Laurinatis stuff, but I doubt there's been a woman who's ever got a significant push in WWE that didn't get creeped on by Vince at some point.

Also the lawsuit mentions Vince showing the photos to random tech people so it really strains credibility that none of the wrestlers knew anything was amiss since he seems to constantly act like a teenager who just got to third base for the first time.

[strobogo]

6 hours ago, KawadaSmile said:

I'm not sure if this is completely true, to be very honest. There was this one case about João de Deus, a psychic medium who even appeared on Oprah and had consultations with Bill Clinton during his tenure as president. He was in touch with many important names in the political and entertainment spheres

He, to the public eye, was a very popular and amicable guru, but then more and more accusations came forward, and everyone was shocked. He had a whopping SIX HUNDRED sexual abuse accusations against him, from 1986 to 2017. 

 

Point being is that while *someone* had to know, many people in this kind of position have more than enough means to silence and shut down anything negative about them for a long, long time. The manipulation of the flow of information, who gets to know what, things like that. In Vince's case, based on the files we have access to, we know there was an inner circle of high-ups, executives and at least one wrestler who knew what was up, but considering how many people, men and women, use the words "father figure" to describe Vince, it's also very much likely that he could just cultivate and portray a much more sympathetic persona.

 

And this is also important: if those powerful people manage to keep that "cleaner" public image, then surely people would take a liking to them. If people like them, they will defend them against any sort of accusation, regardless of their weight and veracity.

João de Deus, going back to the example I gave, was BELOVED by millions and millions of people, seen as someone who could do no wrong. Shit, the name he used means "John of God." 

If victims are immediatly shot down by blind followers or direct action from their tormentors, how can they be heard?

I get the point you are making, but there is frankly a staggering amount of predators and scam artists that Oprah platformed over the years.

 

As far of people having to know, basically all these dudes who got swept up in the past however many years were known creeps and people did talk about it, just not loud and serious enough to get traction. Comedians were talking about Cosby on podcasts for years before Hannibal went at him. There are Weinstein jokes in a bunch of sitcoms over the years, at awards shows, even blatant Weinstein expies in a few Weinstein/Miramax movies. There had been talk about Kevin Spacey for 25 years. In the case of someone like Jimmy Savile, that dude seemed to be pretty blatant about what he was doing and people around him knew and kept it going for some side action themselves. 

 

When it comes to Vince and Johnny Ace, rumors have been flying around about them for decades, too. To the extent of what is in the filing, no, but Vince does have a rape charge, a couple of indecent exposure charges, was very open about all the affairs he had and extremely weird sexual desires. Johnny Ace has those rumors that he was banging Mrs. Baba in the 90s and his entire tenure of working with women in WWE is about him being a creepy asshole. But when you see the filing and then track what Vince himself was doing on TV for so many years: 

Forcing himself on nearly every woman on the roster, who on screen and off were his employees, frequently directly in front of his wife, humiliating many of said women and holding his position of power over them to keep them sexually pleasing him, angles with Stephanie where it is implied he let or was going to let Taker rape and marry her, then during the feud with Stephanie she had that promo about him pimping her out to his business friends as a teenager, also straight up fighting her (days before her wedding no less), wanting either Shane or himself be the father of Stephanie's baby on screen. Not to mention the shit humor for 30 years, forcing men to kiss his ass, cuck angles, at least one actual rape angle (Kane/Lita, potentially Heidnreich/Cole as well). Now sure, circumstantial, artists can have things in their art they do not condone or engage in, but Cosby had a date rape joke in the 60s, Weinstein had movies he produced with scumbag producers sexually harassing women, Luc Besson and Woody Allen both wrote movies about dating or being in love with teenagers, and so on and so on. 

I think it would be impossible for more than a handful of people not knowing what was going on if the filing and Vince's own texts are anything to go by. Double raping on the conference room desk during work hours? No one on the floor noticed that?

[The Man in Blak]

It's not a question of what they know, it's a question of what can be proven. As far as the wrestlers go, I'm not holding my breath expecting anybody -- other than maybe Brock, who's singled out by the WSJ in their reporting -- to do more than say that they "I heard stories (but never imagined)" and offer some thin condemnation of what's alleged.

[C.S.]

Wrestlers are not going to be open about anything, ever. They're taught not to be.

Remember when Marc Mero opened up about drugs in wrestling on a news show after Benoit? He was castigated and blackballed for speaking out against "da bidness." 

[Embrodak]

There’s some slippage to the concept of “knowing” here. If there were a ton of people who knew about the specific reprehensible shit that was alleged in this filing, then burn the place to the fucking ground. I imagine that what most people “knew”, though, was that there were a lot of rumblings and rumors, and that Vince was extremely powerful and would fuck you up if he heard you were asking questions.

Re: the rape in the office, the lawsuit doesn’t say that one happened in the middle of a workday. The rape that happened in the middle of a workday (perpetrated by McMahon alone, in his private locker room) is described as such right afterward, so I imagine they would have mentioned that the gang rape happened during a workday if in fact it did. It says she sent a message refusing that one at 7:51 am, so I suspect it was done prior to regular business hours.

[sek69]

51 minutes ago, Embrodak said:

There’s some slippage to the concept of “knowing” here. If there were a ton of people who knew about the specific reprehensible shit that was alleged in this filing, then burn the place to the fucking ground. I imagine that what most people “knew”, though, was that there were a lot of rumblings and rumors, and that Vince was extremely powerful and would fuck you up if he heard you were asking questions.

Agreed. I'd wager anyone who's worked for WWE for longer than five minutes in the last 40 years has heard fucked up stories/rumors/tales about Vince,  but I as far as knowing all the sordid details I would think only his inner circle would know the full story.

[Embrodak]

38 minutes ago, sek69 said:

Agreed. I'd wager anyone who's worked for WWE for longer than five minutes in the last 40 years has heard fucked up stories/rumors/tales about Vince,  but I as far as knowing all the sordid details I would think only his inner circle would know the full story.

The thing is there are so many colorful/weird/fucked-up/eccentric tales about Vince McMahon, I can imagine a lot of people simply compartmentalized and assumed a lot of it was bullshit until like two years ago when they read in the paper that someone was alleging he made her blow him for a push. Wrestling is the absolute perfect industry to try and pull this kind of stuff in, because the people involved are used to treating stories they hear as tall tales and exaggerations.

[Blehschmidt]

Holy Shit, Laurinaitis is turning on Vince. Didn't see that coming.

[DMJ]

"I'm also a victim" is an interesting defense, but a wolf will chew its own leg off to get out of a trap. 

Vince's only move is to deny. There's no bigger fish to fry than him, no on else to push blame onto (unless he somehow can turn this into all being his buddy Donny's fault). 

....but John Laurenaitis can absolutely try to make it seem like Vince was the puppetmaster forcing everyone around him to engage in wild orgies. And it's not that far-fetched. Naming his dildos after wrestlers, the texts, and roleplaying as Brock Lesnar to engage in rough sex tells me that he is turned on by power dynamics and humiliation and group sex. 

I just don't think Laurenaitis can successfully convince anyone that he was forced to engage in a forced threesome under duress. 

[NintendoLogic]

Keep in mind that sex trafficking is a serious felony, so everyone named in Grant's lawsuit could potentially be facing criminal liability. And the feds have already raided Vince, so who knows what they currently have on him and his accomplices. In other words, we might be seeing a classic Gambino-style roll-up. A high-ranking executive who used his position to take advantage of women in his employ for decades trying to paint himself as a victim will be a tough sell to say the least, but as much of a scumbag as Laurinaitis is, he's about a thousandth as reprehensible as Vince. If Johnny Ace getting off scot-free is the cost of taking the big man down for good, so be it.

[Embrodak]

The thing is it can simultaneously be true that Laurinaitis was structurally a victim of McMahon’s weird pseudo-Epsteinian kink *and* a despicable reprobate using his power and position to get his rocks off with younger women. He likely *didn’t* have much of a choice once Vince marked him out as his surrogate cock du jour, but I don’t believe for a second that he wasn’t super into it, unless there were private moments of regret he expressed to Grant that were elided from her legal filing.

Re: Epstein, I just have this recurring vision of Vince reading about the shit that he was getting up to and getting wildly aroused, rather than disgusted, by it, and deciding he wants a taste. This is on a whole other level compared to the Weinstein-style stuff he was accused of earlier in his life.