Is the empire crumbling before our eyes?

[Embrodak]

50 minutes ago, sek69 said:

It helps that what he did back then wouldn't even crack the top ten most objectionable things that happened in the Attitude Era.

Yeah, well, Rock has a lot of “Trump mocking disabled reporter” stuff in his past if he has any political ambition, is all I’m saying.

[Dooley]

9 hours ago, C.S. said:

I genuinely thought Paul Roma died years ago. I guess I somehow confused him with Tom Zenk. I'm glad "Pretty" Paul is still around. A genuinely underrated wrestler and actually one of the more talented Horsemen if you rank them all.

Beg pardon?

4 hours ago, Embrodak said:

Yeah, well, Rock has a lot of “Trump mocking disabled reporter” stuff in his past if he has any political ambition, is all I’m saying.

It's a fictional character. It would be like going after him for a role in one of his movies. Whoever tried would be laughed out of the room.

[Jmare007]

Cena (tries to) speaks on the whole Vince deal

 

[flyonthewall2983]

He is making an art out of stuffing his foot into his mouth. 

[NintendoLogic]

"Shit hits the fan" was an especially poor choice of words on his part.

[C.S.]

14 hours ago, Dooley said:

Beg pardon?

You heard me!  

I'd rank Roma as a Horseman ahead of:

Ole Anderson: Never meshed well with the group IMO. This bitter old country bumpkin fit about as well as Henry O. Godwinn would have in DX.

Lex Luger: Ditto, but this one is at least arguable.

Sting: This was just to set up a turn, which everyone saw coming a mile away.

Sid Vicious: Never a great fit and I'd rather watch a Roma match.

Chris Benoit: As dry as Melba toast, a mass murderer, and never fit as a Horseman.

Steve McMichael: He was an entertaining character and I wish him the best health-wise, but Roma was better in-ring.

Curt Hennig: Obviously smokes Roma as a wrestler, but he was a lousy Horseman because of an ill-conceived turn that never should've happened. Would've been an all-timer otherwise.

Dean Malenko: A better wrestler than Roma, but a bland personality and never fit as a Horseman.

Roma was young, looked good, had class, and was a decent wrestler. I'll concede to being the only wrestling fan in the world who was excited about Roma becoming a Horseman, because I thought he was severely underutilized in the WWF.

Olde (not a typo) was so long-in-the-tooth by then that I was thrilled when Roma was introduced as the fourth member instead of him.

Post-Horsemen, Pretty Wonderful (Roma and Orndorff) was a damn fun heel tag team - just as Power and Glory (Roma and Hercules) was in the WWF.

[SirEdger]

I lost brain cells just reading this.

[El-P]

John Cena's statement is fucking pathetic.

I find the pro-wrestling community at large to be fucking pathetic, with very few exceptions.

This is a system of abuse. That's exactly what Paul Roma is describing. Vince bought the company in 1982. One year later, he was covering up Jimmy Snuka's killing his girlfriend "for the good of the company". Then the rapes, sexual harassment, exploitations in various forms, up until more rapes and sex trafficking of Janel Grant. That's what the legacy of WWE is. 40 years of a system of predation and abuse for the benefit and wealth of Vince McMahon and his ilk. Shutting down and humiliating a rape victim "for the good of the company". Stephany was part of it. Really think Paul Levesque wasn't ? And if he wasn't, that he wasn't aware ? Give me a fucking break. And the TKO higher ups, they brought Vince back in power knowingly why he had been gone, because that was the deal. 

Oh, but everything's fine now, Vince is gone. #WeWantCody. Rock is back, and he's gonna produce a biopic on Ric Flair (great, here he is again on AEW TV too). I'm sure this is gonna be fair to Flair. To the woman he sexually harassed on a plane ride "from hell", probably less so.

Jim Valley is the only guy who did set the record straight this last few weeks, with his damaged vocal chords and broken voice. People need to set their priorities right. If not, you're part of the problem. And considering how things are going, yes, pro-wrestling fans are definitely part of the problem.

Hopefully all of what is happening now gives the victims the support and strength they need to speak up. Everything needs to be taken down if you want to hope for something better. If not, then you're building on a rotten foundation, with rotten building blocks.

[Dooley]

3 hours ago, SirEdger said:

I lost brain cells just reading this.

Points for a take I've never seen before anyway.

[El-P]

And oh BTW, maybe it's time to reevaluate Pat Patterson's dealings with the workers too. Because for years, it had to be only Terry Garvin and Mel Philips assaulting ring boys, Pat could not have been a bad guy, come on, he was such a great worker and he's a wrestling genius and invented the Royal Rumble, he was only a scapegoat for a while. Good ol' Pat Patterson.

Pat Patterson was *at worst* the number 3 guy in the company. Most probably #2 behind Vince. Imagine the power dynamics at plays. It's been around for years too. But since it's Pat, nah, could not be.

Sure.

As far as the other case that would be "even worse" than Janel Grant's story, that's coming from Mario Mancini, who is the guy who recently supported Rita Chatterton's claim. So there.

40 years.

[C.S.]

19 hours ago, SirEdger said:

I lost brain cells just reading this.

If you mean my Roma post, well, you can't lose what you never had to begin with.  

15 hours ago, Dooley said:

Points for a take I've never seen before anyway.

Every time I go against the grain of one of the sleaziest and dumbest fanbases in existence (I don't mean PWO, but there is definitely some groupthink here too), I pat myself on the back Barry Horowitz-style.

El-P said it best:

16 hours ago, El-P said:

I find the pro-wrestling community at large to be fucking pathetic, with very few exceptions.

[Ricky Jackson]

Then why are you here?

[C.S.]

2 minutes ago, Ricky Jackson said:

Then why are you here?

Why did you comment without reading my post?

I specifically said I did not count PWO among the type of wrestling fans I mean.

Do better, be better, Ricky. 

[Ricky Jackson]

I meant if you have such contempt for wrestling and its fans why do you even like it

[C.S.]

ck

Just now, Ricky Jackson said:

I meant if you have such contempt for wrestling and its fans why do you even like it

Never said I had contempt for wrestling itself. Certain parts of it and certain people in it, yes, but I don't think I'm alone in that. 

As for the fans, venture outside of PWO and you'll see what I mean. There are a couple of other good places with intelligent fans: WC, CSS, etc. But 99% of the social interactions on wrestling sites make me weep for humanity. Pick a random "newz" site, for example, and read some of the comments. *Shudder*

I disagree plenty here, but for the most part, it's fun and civil.

[SirEdger]

5 hours ago, C.S. said:

If you mean my Roma post, well, you can't lose what you never had to begin with.  

I used to like you.

[El-P]

Case in point.

Don't misquote me either. By pro-wrestling community, I mean not only *us* fans, but people in the industry as well, and people who used to be in the industry. All in regard to the current situation. It's a shit show of pathetic misplaced priorities, bullshit relativism and the likes. In that context, what Paul Roma says deserves a whole lot better than "Hey, I thought he was one of the better horsemen / lulz, no". But whatever. Case in point.

Gotta say this also. The very notion of "kayfabe" has been questioned just a little bit on Meltzer's show lately as definitely an element that allowed all of this to happen. "Protect the business" was also (moreso ?) a way to justify the unjustifiable (crimes of all sorts, really). All the kayfabe simps out there, who still romanticize this era of pro-wrestling have a lot of inner questioning to do. And although "kayfabe" has been dead a long time ago, and pro-wrestling was *always* known to be fake, you can see how it was still working as a system on the inner sides of the business, as demonstrated by the episode of Terri Runnels being told by good ole Dustin to "no-sell" the fact she had just been sexually assaulted by Brock Lesnar ("but he only showed her his dick, lulz, it's not a sexual assault"). That's well into the 00'. "Kayfabe brotha" has also played a role in silencing the victims, and it is still working today.

Anywoo. Gotta go watch Dynamite. With Ric Flair in it. Well, can always watch NJPW. With Matt Riddle winning a title. Ok, whatever, let's watch some indies. Hey, we know who that is, TAFKA Velveteen Dream.

Everythin' fine. It's Mania season. Next, maybe Rock can go to do some sportwashing for the Saudis too, while Papa Trip can keep on the "see no evil, hear no evil" routine at press conferences and John Cena can be a bumbling idiot. Business is doing great. Gotta protect it. Kayfabe brutha.

[Coffey]

14 hours ago, C.S. said:

If you mean my Roma post...

If it helps, C.S., you're not on that island alone this time, brother. I thought Roma was really underrated too & liked him as a Horseman. He also looked great in a suit which is something that actually matters as a Horsemen & is part of the reason, to me, why Mongo always stuck out like a sore thumb. 

I wouldn't say I like Roma more than Sid, because I'm a Sid mark though. Roma himself was also a pretty bland personality but I still take him over Malenko whom just never dragged me into much. Although I do still remember two things from him a lot: Ciclope reveal and the hotel with Lita in WWF where they hit him with a lamp. 

I loved Power & Glory and feel they had an all-time finish. Pretty Wonderful was a lot of fun, too. I think Roma is just better as a tag guy.

[Robert S]

In my WCW rewatch (only doing PPVs an Clashed), two Roma things stuck out: Pretty Wonderful vs. Cactus Jack & Kevin Sullivan at Bash at the Beach 94 that went way, way, WAY too long (wikipedia says 20:10, but it felt like close to a broadway draw) as well as the infamous Roma vs. Alex Wright match where Roma not only kicked out at the supposed finish but also called a match where he had a lot of highspots and Wright got almost nothing.

[Dav'oh]

Well, when it's US$2342 a ringside ticket, and US$53 for nosebleeds (and please note, the size - 182x143 yards - and shape - oval- of the stadium's playing surface means the nosebleeds are even bleedier), you're bound to have more than a few tickets left over. It's also at least a four-hour flight from the major cities on the east coast, driving is almost foolhardy, so I wouldn't expect to many tourist dollars.

I guess my gist is, the point of it all, is, fuck you, WWE. Just in general.

 

[C.S.]

10 hours ago, SirEdger said:

I used to like you.

I still like you. 

Usually I don't pick such low-hanging fruit, but you walked right into it with your brain cells comments, lol - I had to throw that back at you. I meant it in a joking manner. 

5 hours ago, El-P said:

Case in point.

Don't misquote me either. By pro-wrestling community, I mean not only *us* fans, but people in the industry as well, and people who used to be in the industry. All in regard to the current situation. It's a shit show of pathetic misplaced priorities, bullshit relativism and the likes. In that context, what Paul Roma says deserves a whole lot better than "Hey, I thought he was one of the better horsemen / lulz, no". But whatever. Case in point.

Didn't mean to misquote you. I knew full well you meant more than just the limited context in which I used your quote.

You've completely lost me with your "lulz Roma" rant though. No one is dismissing what Roma said re: allegations, but this is a message board, and side conversations are inevitable. 

1 hour ago, Coffey said:

If it helps, C.S., you're not on that island alone this time, brother. I thought Roma was really underrated too & liked him as a Horseman. He also looked great in a suit which is something that actually matters as a Horsemen & is part of the reason, to me, why Mongo always stuck out like a sore thumb. 

I wouldn't say I like Roma more than Sid, because I'm a Sid mark though. Roma himself was also a pretty bland personality but I still take him over Malenko whom just never dragged me into much. Although I do still remember two things from him a lot: Ciclope reveal and the hotel with Lita in WWF where they hit him with a lamp. 

I loved Power & Glory and feel they had an all-time finish. Pretty Wonderful was a lot of fun, too. I think Roma is just better as a tag guy.

I'm glad I've found the one other Roma fan in the world.

Fair enough on Sid. I liked him too. I just didn't think he was a great Horseman because - like Lex - it was obvious he was already "bigger" than the group from the minute he joined.

Agreed about Roma being a better tag guy. The Young Stallions was before I started watching wrestling, and I've probably only seen 1-2 matches of theirs, but Jim Powers is another one who I've always wondered why never got a real push. Decent look and decent in the ring. He presumably took massive amounts of steroids when he went to WCW, and for what? He was used as a jobber anyway, and that look was more preferred in the WWF.

[El-P]

56 minutes ago, Dav'oh said:

Well, when it's US$2342 a ringside ticket, and US$53 for nosebleeds (and please note, the size - 182x143 yards - and shape - oval- of the stadium's playing surface means the nosebleeds are even bleedier), you're bound to have more than a few tickets left over. It's also at least a four-hour flight from the major cities on the east coast, driving is almost foolhardy, so I wouldn't expect to many tourist dollars.

I guess my gist is, the point of it all, is, fuck you, WWE. Just in general.

Who the fuck is paying 2 grand to watch a pro-wrestling show. Hell, who the fuck is paying 2 grand to watch anything ? These clowns like "referee douchebag" I see at AEW shows are just so fucking rich they can afford hundreds or even thousands of dollars to attend a pro-wrestling show ? Last time I spend 2 grand I spent one entire month in Berlin, travel included (and not even on low-cost mind you). This world just makes no sense whatsoever.

I thought about going to All In last year, but if I'm travelling, I ain't watching a show from the rafters through some shitty-ass big screen. Then I saw the prices and went "Nope". Paid 20 euros on Fite instead. And this year, if I even bother to watch it considering right now I'm numb to everything (takes Danielson vs ZSJ for me to care a little bit), it'll be through Very Legal Means, so even fucking better. 

Anywoo, this is neither here nor there really.

I echo the last sentence, for all intent and purposes. 

[El-P]

Glad that Meltzer underlined the fact that neither John Cena (who talked like a bumbling fool) nor Randy Orton (who talked like the privilege fuck that he is) had any words of compassions for the victim(s). None whatsoever. That's how it is. That's who these people are.

[Robert S]

4 hours ago, El-P said:

Who the fuck is paying 2 grand to watch a pro-wrestling show. Hell, who the fuck is paying 2 grand to watch anything ? These clowns like "referee douchebag" I see at AEW shows are just so fucking rich they can afford hundreds or even thousands of dollars to attend a pro-wrestling show ? Last time I spend 2 grand I spent one entire month in Berlin, travel included (and not even on low-cost mind you). This world just makes no sense whatsoever.

(...)

I wonder less about why someone would want to pay 2k+ for 3-4 hours of entertainment, more how some people have the time to do this at least once a month, travel included. Are green-shirt-guy-with-Ellsworth-face and TNT-flag-guy trust fund kids who never had to work a day in their lives? Did they, while still in college, found start-ups that would probably have gone belly-up but someone managed to get bought out for 8 figures and got out of the company before the buyer found out there was nothing there and liquidated everything? Did they get rich running some crypo scam?

[JRH]

2 hours ago, Robert S said:

I wonder less about why someone would want to pay 2k+ for 3-4 hours of entertainment, more how some people have the time to do this at least once a month, travel included. Are green-shirt-guy-with-Ellsworth-face and TNT-flag-guy trust fund kids who never had to work a day in their lives? Did they, while still in college, found start-ups that would probably have gone belly-up but someone managed to get bought out for 8 figures and got out of the company before the buyer found out there was nothing there and liquidated everything? Did they get rich running some crypo scam?

I'm still curious about what exact job Vladimir (WWE superfan) had that allowed him to go to all those WWF/E shows (he also showed up at WCW, ECW, and I think even AEW shows).