WWE TV 07/06 - 07/12 I'm not a citizen. I'm a civil engineer. A graduated one. Better than you.

[sek69]

I get that they were scrambling for something to fill time, but holy shit that karaoke segment was BAD.

[PeteF3]

6 hours ago, NintendoLogic said:

I've never understood the affinity some fans have for long-term heel champions. Wrestling is escapist entertainment. Why would I want to watch something centered around someone the viewers are supposed to consider unlikable and undeserving? If I want to see vice unpunished and virtue unrewarded, I can just turn on the news. The real world is shitty enough. I don't need my entertainment to be shitty.

NWA champion model fetishization, with everyone missing the fact that the NWA champion model worked a hell of a lot better when the champ came to your territory once or twice a year instead of being on TV every week, and nowadays on top of it, wrestling every week.

[KawadaSmile]

Cena being an ace champion is way more interesting to me than a year-long Adam Cole heel run as champ. Just not engaging at all.

One Piece wouldn't be so great if it focused on Crocodile instead of Luffy etc.

 

[Kadaveri]

9 hours ago, PeteF3 said:

NWA champion model fetishization, with everyone missing the fact that the NWA champion model worked a hell of a lot better when the champ came to your territory once or twice a year instead of being on TV every week, and nowadays on top of it, wrestling every week.

And an important context people miss out is the reason why the travelling World Champion was usually a heel is the local top star they'd wrestle was usually a babyface. But it was the latter who people would actually watch regularly.

[El-P]

25 minutes ago, Kadaveri said:

And an important context people miss out is the reason why the travelling World Champion was usually a heel is the local top star they'd wrestle was usually a babyface. But it was the latter who people would actually watch regularly.

Agreed, but wasn't the world champ on National TV too at some point ? I mean in the 80's with Flair ?

Of course, it's one thing to have "a heel champ" on your TV every week, it's another thing to have Ric Flair on your TV every week cutting those promos. That plays an important part too. HHH cosplaying Ric Flair was problematic because he was a heel that destroyed everyone but also because he was fucking HHH cutting those boring 20 minutes promos and having boring-ass overlong matches all the time. 

[PeteF3]

It was an issue with Flair in the '80s, too. Part of that was Flair himself, part of that was Dusty, but people operating in JCP at the time failed to understand the difference as well and still do to this day.

[Kadaveri]

2 hours ago, El-P said:

Agreed, but wasn't the world champ on National TV too at some point ? I mean in the 80's with Flair ?

Yes and I think weekly national TV is where the NWA model started to break. Eventually people got sick of Flair beating their favourites over and over again so went to watch Hulk Hogan win instead.

[MoS]

Yeah. With hindsight, if I were booking JCP in the late 80s, I would have turned Flair face in 1987 and let him have a long run as champ. He could have always turned back heel when it was time to put over the next generation of faces. 

[El-P]

36 minutes ago, Kadaveri said:

Yes and I think weekly national TV is where the NWA model started to break. Eventually people got sick of Flair beating their favourites over and over again so went to watch Hulk Hogan win instead.

That makes sense. 

[sek69]

Yeah it def. wasn't Vince running roughshod  and looting rosters, or the TV model changing from local stations providing TV time free for local territories, it was *checks notes* Ric Flair having excellent matches.

 

Also you can probably make an argument that Crockett monopolizing the NWA title led to the model breaking, as it led to groups like World Class leaving since they couldn't get the champ booked in their territory anymore. 

[MoS]

Even with all of that, JCP still made tons of money in 1985 and 1986. It's not a sustainable model though, and ultimately, fans get tired of seeing their heroes constantly getting screwed over. Some of it is booking, absolutely, but world champs feeling credible mattered a lot then and even now, is a big factor, and while Flair was untouchable because of his promos, ultimately, fans would think of Hogan being the more "real" world champ. In today's world, there won't be the constant Dusty finishes that definitely played a role in JCP declining, andof course, good heel runs when done properly are money, but as a long-term model, I much prefer the babyface anchor model. Ric Flair could have had excellent matches as the top face as well. 

[El-P]

One issue with Flair is that is was always the champ despite never really beating anyone decisively. A lot of Flair matches had very weak, anti-climatic endings. 

[Dale Wolfe]

Thought New Day v Nakamura/Cesaro was pretty cool. I still think they could take a run with Cesaro even after all this time. 

[Dale Wolfe]

I always thought peak Flair presentation was leading upto the Rumble and ultimately if that had been the approach in JCP/NWA/WCW I think it would have been a lot more successful as a draw. Despite his strengths as a promo - arguably the best ever - tying him to heenan and hennig gave it a sports-like basis that gave it the extra edge. 

Like, I love Flair but think he was so much better with Ole or Heenan beside him. He is still the best ever tho, these are minor points. 

[MoS]

10 minutes ago, El-P said:

One issue with Flair is that is was always the champ despite never really beating anyone decisively. A lot of Flair matches had very weak, anti-climatic endings. 

Definitely. I mentioned Dusty finishes, but even the ones he did win, he would win weakly. He got away for a long time with it because he is Ric Flair, but it was definitely a factor in their eventual decline. 

[sek69]

Booking in JCP was always going to be a problem. Giving Dusty so much power in retrospect was probably not the best idea since it just led to pissing contests between him and Ric.

[Strummer]

Yep, how much of it was a long term heel champion or Flair constantly being booked to be ineffective and getting punked on tv every week? I'm sure the thought was one promo would undo all the bad booking but it built up and by 87 everything started going down

[NintendoLogic]

When Sam Muchnick ran the NWA, there were occasional screwjob finishes in title matches, but he was adamant that every program had to end with the champion going over clean so there would be no doubt that he was the best in the world. After he lost power in the mid-70s, screwjobs became the rule rather than the exception as the focus became making the local star look like the uncrowned world champion. That model stopped being viable with the rise of things like VCRs and cable television. With modern technology, it was no longer possible for Flair or Race to come into town and escape by the skin of his teeth without people being aware that the same thing was happening in every other territory.

I do think long heel title reigns can work under certain circumstances, but they have to end with the heel decisively getting his ass kicked and then fading out of the title picture. Honky Tonk Man and JBL come to mind.

[Migs]

17 hours ago, cm funk said:

I thought Sabre was taller than 6 flat.  Maybe it's because he's so skinny and gangly, and he looks tall by NJPW standards, but I really thought he was a few inches taller than that and I don't see any reason for NJPW to underbill him

I'm about 5'11, and in a picture I have with ZSJ, he looks 2-3 inches taller than me. I'd eye ball myself, relatively using the pictures, at 2-3 inches taller than Cole.

[Migs]

3 hours ago, MoS said:

Yeah. With hindsight, if I were booking JCP in the late 80s, I would have turned Flair face in 1987 and let him have a long run as champ. He could have always turned back heel when it was time to put over the next generation of faces. 

You know, if you turn Flair babyface after Bash '87, basically replace the Garvin switch with him versus, I dunno, Luger or heel Nikita or something, that's an interesting counterfactual. Make the on-screen relationship between Flair and Dusty not a zero-sum game and maybe it improves the off-screen one?

[C.S.]

On 7/10/2020 at 11:33 PM, cm funk said:

I thought Sabre was taller than 6 flat.  Maybe it's because he's so skinny and gangly, and he looks tall by NJPW standards, but I really thought he was a few inches taller than that and I don't see any reason for NJPW to underbill him

18 hours ago, Migs said:

I'm about 5'11, and in a picture I have with ZSJ, he looks 2-3 inches taller than me. I'd eye ball myself, relatively using the pictures, at 2-3 inches taller than Cole.

 

[MoS]

Clearly, one of the reasons all of us nerds posting here love Sasha is that she is a fellow wrestling nerd. 

[Matt D]

At least they give proper credit to Martin and Kai.

[KawadaSmile]

Rusev got the rona, possibly around the same time as Lana's family.

Who would've thought??

[SirEdger]

If Lana actually doesn't catch it, she needs to buy a lottery ticket.