2026 Ideas

[Grimmas]

40 minutes ago, El Dragon said:

Having pretty recently gone through the AWA set, I don’t think ranking Heenan would be crazy and he might sneak into my bottom 20. “Wrestler playing a Manager who can’t wrestle” is a genre of wrestling, and 80% of people who play it suck at it. Heenan was legit incredible at that specific element of wrestling, best of all time at it by a wide margin. Add in he’s a center figure of a match that I have at 4 1/2 (Six man with Patera and Ventura vs. Hogan and High Flyers), and he’s on my list of people to consider

He was the star of one of my top 10 favourite matches at Survivor Series 89.

[Grimmas]

2 hours ago, TonyPulis'Cap said:

This has been a really interesting thread to read through. I came onto the board towards the tail end of the 2016 project, so enjoyed reading the discussions and the reveal of the list without submitting one myself as I didn't feel in a place to do so at that time. Fast forward to now and I'm definitely interested in getting involved this time, as it feels like this could be just the thing to reinvigorate my love for wrestling which has definitely been waning the last few years due to a variety of factors (general turn offs in the way wrestling is presented esp. WWE, pandemic era pro wrestling, Speaking Out etc.). I'm getting excited though about having something to focus my watching around and really getting to explore wrestlers and styles where I don't have that knowledge and re-evaluate areas I'm more familiar with. The only thing potentially holding me back is that I tend to enjoy episodic wrestling and find it hard to jump into individual matches - no matter how 'good' they are - without context, but having that overall framework or narrative of the project as a whole should help with that.

It's been fascinating seeing the debates already, not about workers, but on how people will be judging them, and on that front, it's always hard given the subjective nature of all this. In saying that, one of the things I look for in a 'great' wrestler is their ability to change up their style or what they do in the ring (and indeed, even their appearance and demeanor) to fit the different context they find themselves in - so that ability to change what they do based on the setting, the storyline, the occasion etc. It's one of the things I hate most about modern WWE - everyone comes to the ring and wrestles as if they are in a computer game. Regardless of whether it's a blood feud or an enhancement match they wrestle it in exactly the same way with the same entrance poses and mannerisms.   

Looking forward to discussing these things with you!

[MoS]

Do we have a lot of serious Heenan promos on tape? I know he was supposedly very sinister and serious in his earlier days, but I don't know if we have existing footage of it 

[Loss]

He's all over whatever 1979 Georgia Championship Wrestling footage we have and was very much in that role there.

[Phil Schneider]

What do you guys think the floor for available matches is? We have guys in the French footage who seem clearly to be among the best wrestlers ever,  but we only have two or three matches. Feels like a list without Tony Oliver or Modesto Aledo doesn't make sense, but can we judge someone on so little footage?

[Matt D]

Personally, there's no chance of Tony Oliver making my list on one or two matches, no matter how great he is in them. Some of the guys like Peruano or Sola or Bernaert or Jacky Corn where we have them over a span of multiple years and multiple settings and multiple opponents, that's a different story. But one element of my list is clarity. I have to be sure that Wrestler X is better than Wrestler Y to be ranked above them and I generally need a number of performances in a number of settings to be sure.

Even with Heenan, there just isn't enough of Heenan out there for him to break my top 80, I think. 

That said, in the last few years, we've gotten better/extended footage of the Comiskey Park 70s Brazil/Bruiser tag, one or two AJPW matches (like Jumbo/Tenryu vs Heenan/Larry Z), and one or two AWA matches like Andre The Giant/Hulk Hogan vs. Bobby Heenan/Nick Bockwinkel/Bobby Duncum/Ken Patera. Plus him in certain other settings like seconding Bockwinkel vs Ricky Morton in Houston. He didn't make my list last time and I don't seriously see that changing this time.

[El-P]

59 minutes ago, Phil Schneider said:

What do you guys think the floor for available matches is? We have guys in the French footage who seem clearly to be among the best wrestlers ever,  but we only have two or three matches. Feels like a list without Tony Oliver or Modesto Aledo doesn't make sense, but can we judge someone on so little footage?

It doesn't matter in the end because it's just a GWE list, there's no actual repercussion on anything. If I end up thinking any of those guys looks like some of the best wrestlers I've ever seen, I'll slip them somewhere in my list. This kind of cases is also why I'm probably more of a peak guy. Quality over quantity. And personal relationship to what I actually experience as opposed to a "study" that doesn't really mean anything unless someone actually watches all the pro-wrestling matches of all the pro-wrestlers ever, which is impossible (and really useless, as at some point I figure like 90% of it would be redondant anyway). You have to make choices at some points, and no choice is objective, so there are confirmation biases all over the place when you already choose something over something else. If the available footage makes the choice for me, so be it. As far as the ranking goes, it honesty doesn't matter to me one bit apart from say, the top 20. A top 100 is just that. Being 82 instead of 83 means exactly jackshit.

[Grimmas]

1 hour ago, Phil Schneider said:

What do you guys think the floor for available matches is? We have guys in the French footage who seem clearly to be among the best wrestlers ever,  but we only have two or three matches. Feels like a list without Tony Oliver or Modesto Aledo doesn't make sense, but can we judge someone on so little footage?

I think that is a line that each person has to draw themselves, 3 is the minimum to be nominated, but if 3 is enough for you that is a personal choice.

[elliott]

Anyone else super excited for WrestleMania week entirely because Grimmas is launching GWE 2026? 

[elliott]

On 4/2/2021 at 8:04 PM, Grimmas said:

I think that is a line that each person has to draw themselves, 3 is the minimum to be nominated, but if 3 is enough for you that is a personal choice.

 

"It depends" will become my catch phrase by 2026 I bet.  I've always been of the opinion that I learned just about all I needed to about The Destroyer in the '69 Baba match. Like if there was only one other Destroyer match and it was terrible, I'd still know he was an amazing wrestler because of what he showed in that Baba match. Obviously this isn't the case with Destroyer as we have a bunch of other footage and know its awesome. I'd have to watch the French stuff to have a better idea of where I stand. I think its a little easier with someone like Johnny Valentine for example because although the footage of him is limited, I can watch a ton of 60s and 70s US & Japanese wrestling and get an idea of the world he worked in. The little bit of French stuff I've seen is so radically different from US or Japanese stuff from the same time period it makes it harder to judge without a proper deep dive. 

But to Phils point, if you feel like its wrong to leave out Tony Oliver you should include him! Or at least highlight him so we can watch him and make that judgement for ourselves. I reeeeally want to vote for Johnny Valentine stupidly high based on like 3 matches. So give me the Tony Oliver hahaha! 

[ohtani's jacket]

On 4/3/2021 at 7:47 AM, Phil Schneider said:

What do you guys think the floor for available matches is? We have guys in the French footage who seem clearly to be among the best wrestlers ever,  but we only have two or three matches. Feels like a list without Tony Oliver or Modesto Aledo doesn't make sense, but can we judge someone on so little footage?

Modesto Aledo shows up later on as the masked Kamikaze, though there are a few matches where I'm not sure if it's actually Aledo under the hood. 

[Clayton Jones]

5 hours ago, elliott said:

Anyone else super excited for WrestleMania week entirely because Grimmas is launching GWE 2026? 

Other than AIW's Go For Broke the GWE launch is definitely what I'm most looking forward to. Starting my ballot process has reinvigorated my watching habits more so than just about anything post pandemic.

[concrete1992]

9 hours ago, elliott said:

Anyone else super excited for WrestleMania week entirely because Grimmas is launching GWE 2026? 

Got some shows I want to watch this week but this is obviously the draw. Getting my posting fingers ready.

[Shrike02]

15 hours ago, elliott said:

 

"It depends" will become my catch phrase by 2026 I bet.  I've always been of the opinion that I learned just about all I needed to about The Destroyer in the '69 Baba match. Like if there was only one other Destroyer match and it was terrible, I'd still know he was an amazing wrestler because of what he showed in that Baba match. Obviously this isn't the case with Destroyer as we have a bunch of other footage and know its awesome. I'd have to watch the French stuff to have a better idea of where I stand. I think its a little easier with someone like Johnny Valentine for example because although the footage of him is limited, I can watch a ton of 60s and 70s US & Japanese wrestling and get an idea of the world he worked in. The little bit of French stuff I've seen is so radically different from US or Japanese stuff from the same time period it makes it harder to judge without a proper deep dive. 

But to Phils point, if you feel like its wrong to leave out Tony Oliver you should include him! Or at least highlight him so we can watch him and make that judgement for ourselves. I reeeeally want to vote for Johnny Valentine stupidly high based on like 3 matches. So give me the Tony Oliver hahaha! 

I plan to vote this time around and could well imagine a scenario where I am the high vote for The Destroyer and some of the French Catch finds. But yes, it depends.

[Quentin]

Glanced through this thread and saw some names I’ll make sure to remember but for the people who have made their way through the French stuff, who are the people to keep an eye on as potential inclusions for ballots? The little bit I’ve seen I’ve loved but I’m still having trouble having an approach on who to tackle first.

[elliott]

1 hour ago, Quentin said:

Glanced through this thread and saw some names I’ll make sure to remember but for the people who have made their way through the French stuff, who are the people to keep an eye on as potential inclusions for ballots? The little bit I’ve seen I’ve loved but I’m still having trouble having an approach on who to tackle first.

 

I'm kinda waiting for Grimmas to hit the start button with the release of the podcasts before I go creating a million new threads. But one of the things I thought would be useful was having threads for each style or genre where folks could highlight the important people to watch for people trying to close a blindspot. Say someone is completely new to 80s territory wrestling and has never even seen a Ric Flair match. If they come in and say "Hey, can people recommend some stuff" and I drop in like "Check out this Buck Robley match, its dope" that's not helpful. Now, the Robley match probably was dope, but I need to be highlighting the Flair, BOckwinkel, Lawler, Ricky Morton types before we get to Robley or Chris Adams to pick another name that is awesome but isn't a top tier candidate to prioritize right away if you're coming to this style fresh. 

That's pretty much how I'll be approaching the French stuff. I think I've seen 5 total French matches. I want to make learning about what to prioritize within your blindspots super easy for everyone. So I'll happily point people in the right directions for classic Joshi or 80s Japanese wrestling because I know people will do the same for me for French stuff or WoS. 

[dkookypunk43]

1 hour ago, elliott said:

 

I'm kinda waiting for Grimmas to hit the start button with the release of the podcasts before I go creating a million new threads. But one of the things I thought would be useful was having threads for each style or genre where folks could highlight the important people to watch for people trying to close a blindspot. Say someone is completely new to 80s territory wrestling and has never even seen a Ric Flair match. If they come in and say "Hey, can people recommend some stuff" and I drop in like "Check out this Buck Robley match, its dope" that's not helpful. Now, the Robley match probably was dope, but I need to be highlighting the Flair, BOckwinkel, Lawler, Ricky Morton types before we get to Robley or Chris Adams to pick another name that is awesome but isn't a top tier candidate to prioritize right away if you're coming to this style fresh. 

That's pretty much how I'll be approaching the French stuff. I think I've seen 5 total French matches. I want to make learning about what to prioritize within your blindspots super easy for everyone. So I'll happily point people in the right directions for classic Joshi or 80s Japanese wrestling because I know people will do the same for me for French stuff or WoS. 

I have a lot of blindspots so I don't really know how to approach it other than watch a bunch of wrestling. I think it's awesome that there are people willing to help with the process

[Reel]

3 hours ago, Quentin said:

Glanced through this thread and saw some names I’ll make sure to remember but for the people who have made their way through the French stuff, who are the people to keep an eye on as potential inclusions for ballots? The little bit I’ve seen I’ve loved but I’m still having trouble having an approach on who to tackle first.

I admittedly haven't watched a ton of the french catch stuff yet, but from what I can glean there's only a handful of guys; Delaporte, Bollet, Labat are the ones who I have written down to watch, who we have a bunch of matches on tape, so I plan on starting with those guys and seeing where things stand. 

[Matt D]

Everyone should watch as much French catch as possible, but maybe not for this project....

[Quentin]

26 minutes ago, Reel said:

I admittedly haven't watched a ton of the french catch stuff yet, but from what I can glean there's only a handful of guys; Delaporte, Bollet, Labat are the ones who I have written down to watch, who we have a bunch of matches on tape, so I plan on starting with those guys and seeing where things stand. 

Thanks, I had some other names I had written too but this should help my confidence in jumping in to it.

2 hours ago, elliott said:

 

I'm kinda waiting for Grimmas to hit the start button with the release of the podcasts before I go creating a million new threads. But one of the things I thought would be useful was having threads for each style or genre where folks could highlight the important people to watch for people trying to close a blindspot. Say someone is completely new to 80s territory wrestling and has never even seen a Ric Flair match. If they come in and say "Hey, can people recommend some stuff" and I drop in like "Check out this Buck Robley match, its dope" that's not helpful. Now, the Robley match probably was dope, but I need to be highlighting the Flair, BOckwinkel, Lawler, Ricky Morton types before we get to Robley or Chris Adams to pick another name that is awesome but isn't a top tier candidate to prioritize right away if you're coming to this style fresh. 

That's pretty much how I'll be approaching the French stuff. I think I've seen 5 total French matches. I want to make learning about what to prioritize within your blindspots super easy for everyone. So I'll happily point people in the right directions for classic Joshi or 80s Japanese wrestling because I know people will do the same for me for French stuff or WoS. 

Would definitely love something like this and think it would be super useful in making this as informative and fun as possible. Everyone has their own strong points and weak spots in viewing and I think embracing those would go a long way for everybody.

[elliott]

52 minutes ago, dkookypunk43 said:

I have a lot of blindspots so I don't really know how to approach it other than watch a bunch of wrestling. I think it's awesome that there are people willing to help with the process

 

I think this is at its core the point of the project. To talk about the people we like and discover new favorites. I'm not budgeting any time for negativity. 

[elliott]

18 minutes ago, Matt D said:

Everyone should watch as much French catch as possible, but maybe not for this project....

Counterpoint: Use this project as an excuse to check out that stuff you've always meant to but never got around to.

[Superstar Sleeze]

Couple things I want to respond to:

1. Elliot "Cornette was adding a lot to those Midnight Express matches that got Bobby Eaton such a high ranking in 2016". This smacks me as bizarre. Bobby Eaton is voted on for being tremendously fun heel in babyface shine doing a bump 'n' run style with lots of stooging and clowning spots and for being a terrific offensive dynamo during heat segments where he executed with conviction whilst ensuring drama built to the hot tag. Are we not judging Bobby Eaton's individual performance in each match? I was proudly the high voter on "Sweet" Stan Lane at #64 (see my avatar) but I had Bobby Eaton in my top 30. I clearly valued certain things Eaton did more such as I prefer his Sweet Home Alabama Right Hand to Sweet Stan's white man karate. At least for me, Eaton made my list on his own merits that was immaterial to what Cornette did or did not do. That being said I do not underestimate their chemistry. Bobby knew when during the shine to crawl on his knees over to his corner or when to hug Cornette for maximum effect. To use a Matt D term  Cornette is a "tool".  Of course, I dont mean an idiot, but a living prop. I dont think Eaton makes the list simply because he was part of great matches. It is what he did in those matches to make them great. 

2. A couple people coming on here making some bold ass claims that they prefer great pro wrestling with shitty builds to awesome promos/builds with shitty matches. If that was the case, everyone would be huge AJ Styles fans and huge Sheamus fans and yet here we are and nobody wants to watch TNA or recent WWE! :p I do believe you, El-P because you are a champion and a glutton for punishment. Grimmas I am sure you are telling the truth too. I just dont think that really extends to most people. I say this because I had relatively recent revelation about myself: I am a fan of pro wrestling matches, but I am not sure I am a fan of pro wrestling anymore. I totally was at one point and I dont know when it happened, but it did. That's why I watch RAW & Smackdown week in & week out and am generally a positive viewer. The WWE still puts on great matches even if their storytelling is either non-existent or piss-poor. I think the average WWE match is still better than the average AEW match. When I get into Twitter arguments, no one actually argues on the merits of the in-ring work, they argue on booking/promos/character & plot development. I do believe AEW has WWE beaten in spades on booking/promos/character & plot development. I think you can incorporate the out of ring aspects of people into their matches through crowd heat & in-ring charisma. A crowd will be hotter if the booking/promos are hotter in the lead-up. Watch Cena vs Punk before Money In The Bank 2011 compared to at Money In The Bank 2011. Punk and Cena should be credited for creating a bona fide hot program that translated into a hot match even though I do think that particular match is a tad bit overrated. My point is that we should not delude ourselves into thinking that we just love pro wrestling matches, other things do influence us.

I will say this I think a very important aspect of watching matches is to understand a wrestler's character. In America, the character is a combination of promos/in-ring. What is sad in post-2001 America is that those two things dont always align. I think it is just as equally as important in Japan. Certain characters are apparent the minute you watch them Choshu, Fujiwara, Kobashi and Hashimoto. They exude charisma out of every pore. Once you have seen them once, you feel like you have known them your whole life. Fujiwara is a great example for me. Never watched a Fujiwara match before 2016. I watched one and I was hooked. I'll give you the opposite examples Misawa and Fujinami. Misawa I totally get now. At first, it is non-obvious who is Misawa? As you watch more, you understand he is Michael Jordan. When the chips are down, you know he is going to pull through and his extended comeback is the stuff of legend. I will use Fujinami in a different context. I still dont know who Fujinami is. That is one of my key goals is to understand Fujinami. 

I think that's the point of this project. You should be able to explain Who a wrestler is at the end of the project and make a case based on those merits. I have officiated two weddings for my friends and I always include this line that I heard in Mass one day "Dont love someone for what they do for you, love them for who they are.". I think that sums up GWE to me. It is not about what moves you do, if you have great matches, or any actions. It is about who you are and comparing based on that.  

EDIT: Was re-reading my post as I am notorious for missing small words when I type (I dont know how you all read my long-ass reviews with all those missing words and never call me out. You are all saints and thank you for that) and I realized an incongruity. I based my rationale on why Bobby Eaton is better than Stan Lane on something he did better (an action not a trait). I think what separates the top tier my list from the bottom is definable character. I dont think I really know who Stan Lane is. I enjoy the Fabulous Ones and Midnight Express. But who is Stan Lane? How can I vote for him at #64? I would say this and some way think this is a cop-out, but honestly, most pro wrestlers suffer from either amorphous or non-existent characters and that's why the bottom half or more would be filled with people I enjoy watching or think are really great at individual facets of wrestling instead of the whole thing. I think the very best will have well-defined characters. I think someone like a Bobby Eaton will finish about as high as you can without having a strong character because he is so good at the how, when and why of pro wrestling. I am still thinking this all through. Sorry for rambling.

[elliott]

4 minutes ago, Superstar Sleeze said:

Couple things I want to respond to:

1. Elliot "Cornette was adding a lot to those Midnight Express matches that got Bobby Eaton such a high ranking in 2016". This smacks me as bizarre. Bobby Eaton is voted on for being tremendously fun heel in babyface shine doing a bump 'n' run style with lots of stooging and clowning spots and for being a terrific offensive dynamo during heat segments where he executed with conviction whilst ensuring drama built to the hot tag. Are we not judging Bobby Eaton's individual performance in each match? I was proudly the high voter on "Sweet" Stan Lane at #64 (see my avatar) but I had Bobby Eaton in my top 30. I clearly valued certain things Eaton did more such as I prefer his Sweet Home Alabama Right Hand to Sweet Stan's white man karate. At least for me, Eaton made my list on his own merits that was immaterial to what Cornette did or did not do. That being said I do not underestimate their chemistry. Bobby knew when during the shine to crawl on his knees over to his corner or when to hug Cornette for maximum effect. To use a Matt D term  Cornette is a "tool".  Of course, I dont mean an idiot, but a living prop. I dont think Eaton makes the list simply because he was part of great matches. It is what he did in those matches to make them great. 

 

 

I wasn't very clear with what I meant. Basically I'm wondering maybe we should look at what Cornette was doing too. I'm not trying to negate Eaton's case at all. I'm saying hey there's a 3rd part to this act and maybe we should look at that too even if he wasn't "in the ring." In 2016 I would have been like "No, they're managers." Now I'm looking at people like Cornette, Heenan, Jimmy Hart, Sherri Martel and wondering if their work as managers should add something to their individual cases. Absolutely judge Eaton on his own merits. I'm wondering if these managers need to be judged on their own merits too and if its worth being on a list. I've said before that stuff like Dump Matsumoto's entrances being these incredible spectacles that set the tone of her matches play a role in how I view her case for a top 100 list . Shouldn't Cornette's or Jimmy Hart's in match interplay count for something too? I'm curious if other people are open to that. Not that Cornette is the real reason Eaton was great or whatever. 

[Phil Schneider]

1 hour ago, Matt D said:

Everyone should watch as much French catch as possible, but maybe not for this project....

If I do this, I am going to have 6-10 French Catch guys in the mix, feels like people should watch this stuff because we have plenty of newly discovered great wrestlers who are absolutely peers to guys like Flair, Kobashi, Santo etc