AEW Dynasty - 4/21/24 - RIP John Forsythe

[Sweet Brown Koko]

1 hour ago, MoS said:

Some missteps aside, the promotion definitely feels like it is gaining momentum and have a lot of hot acts and people getting over

…..if they can keep the main thing the MAIN THING!

They have great performers. They need to tell great stories to go along with the work of the performers.

[Migs]

16 hours ago, WingedEagle said:

Do you really want a babyface getting booed out of a stadium though?

I think Swerve as a babyface is really just a fans reacting thing. Put him against Ospreay in Wembley, he'll be fine as a heel and he won't need to change the character a bit.

[Migs]

2 hours ago, Stiva said:

This might be crazy talk but I have a good feeling about Jack Perry’s return? Feels like all this Punk nonsense has made him intriguing and I feel like he’s going to lean into it really well

Yeah, that worked. Way more than I thought it would.

FTR-Bucks was great, loved that they mixed more violence into it as opposed to the spot-fest types (while still getting in some cool ones). 

[Laz]

I guess I really am in the minority in thinking Danielson/Ospreay wasn't anything special, eh?

[The Thread Killer]

40 minutes ago, Laz said:

I guess I really am in the minority in thinking Danielson/Ospreay wasn't anything special, eh?

I thought it was really good, and I am not saying it was a bad match by any means…but nothing about that match stuck out to me that would distinguish it from the matches Ospreay had with Omega, for example. To be honest, I preferred the match Ospreay had with Takeshita at Revolution. But the minute this one was over, people were saying it was the “Greatest Match in North American History” etc. etc. etc.

I just took that as yet another example of me being out of touch with what the kids seem to enjoy nowadays. Mind you, I also find that people were deciding the match was going to be an all-time classic before the bell even rang, and as much as I respect him, I can’t help but feel that Danielson gets praised in some circles no matter what he does. I personally find him to be one of the more egregious examples of a modern wrestler dragging a match out about 10 minutes longer than it needs to be, with countless false finishes that dilute the effectiveness of finishing maneuvers, but that’s just my opinion, of course.

I absolutely loved the “Four Pillars” of AJPW in the 90’s but in retrospect, a lot of the stuff they did at the time which seemed awesome to me then, can now be directly traced to some of the worst excesses of the modern product today. Namely, matches going on way too long, brutally dangerous manoeuvres that are totally unnecessary, and too many false finishes.  Much in the same way that lesser talented people took what Onita did, bastardized it, and turned it into crap, a lot of the 2000’s indie kids took the worst excesses of vintage AJPW and we are seeing those seeds bear fruit in front of our eyes as we speak.

[Matt D]

Here’s my write up of it and other matches from the week including the Bunkhouse:

http://segundacaida.blogspot.com/2024/04/aew-five-fingers-of-death-415-421.html?m=1

[Jmare007]

1 hour ago, The Thread Killer said:

 

I can’t help but feel that Danielson gets praised in some circles no matter what he does. I personally find him to be one of the more egregious examples of a modern wrestler dragging a match out about 10 minutes longer than it needs to be, with countless false finishes that dilute the effectiveness of finishing maneuvers, but that’s just my opinion, of course.

 

Now that's something I've never thought I'd read. Danielson very rarely uses false finishes compared to most of his contemporaries and can't even compare to the 2010's-2020's guys in that regard. Compared to pre 2000's guys I'd understand but one of the cool things about him is that he saves spamming false finishes for matches like the one against Ospreay.

What I do think he's done a lot since leaving WWE is using the running knee more as a set up move (kind of like a lariat for a Japanese wrestler) that needs to be hit more than once to put someone down. But he's far from being someone that relies on a bunch 2,99999 counts to get the crowd going. 

[strobogo]

Late to the show but it ruled. Even the pre show matches were rad. Idk if Bryan/Ospreay was "greatest American match of all time", but it was an absolute delight and could have gone another 2 hours. Danny Bryan's AEW has been so fucking great. Dude already had a GOAT tier in ring career even up to the first retirement, had absolutely no reason to go to AEW other than love of the game and wanting to have great matches with people he hadn't worked with (or at least hadn't in a long time). 

Roddy/KOR had some really great familiarity spots and fake outs and double/triple fake out counters. 

[DMJ]

- I'm fine saying that Danielson/Ospreay was one of the top 50-75 matches I've seen and I'm an admittedly rather ignorant WWE/WCW/ECW viewer who hasn't seen a ton of ROH, TNA, Mexico, or Japan stuff, let alone whatever Europe or Australia has to offer or territory stuff from the 70s. But even with that mainstream-dominant background, I think it is hyperbolic to call it the best US match in history. As someone else said, I think the Takeshita match from the last PPV was almost nose-to-nose until the last 10 minutes of this one. Plus, sure, this had a ton of great moves and counters and I loved how they built to the Tiger Driver and I'm a mark for basically everything Danielson...but, push comes to shove, I don't know, I still think there is more subtle brilliance in the Austin/Bret series? Or HBK/Mankind? Or some of the Sting/Vader matches? Flair/Steamboat obviously? Nostalgia certainly plays a factor, sure, but I'm much more comfortable calling this a top 50 than I am a top 5.

- I thought the FTR/Bucks match was terrific as well. They had a very hard act to follow, so I'm glad it was a ladder match spotfest. It also meant that the Bucks didn't do any of the lame, "anti-comedy" bullshit that they did on TV last week. That shit was unfunny and atrocious. I thought this was the best possible solution - go out there, do a hard-hitting, physical, weapons-heavy spotfest that shows off both teams' exceptional timing and execution, and then do the big "swerve" at the end to protect FTR while giving the Bucks the W. (Is Cash Wheeler going to prison? Is that still possible? I'm a bigger FTR fan than Bucks fan, but I feel like that still needs to be sorted out...?)

- Liked Jericho/HOOK more than seemingly everyone else on Earth. You can call it "Go Away Heat" or "Jericho Heat" or whatever you want, but the crowd seemed into the match. The real problem is that HOOK isn't very good and the crowd was much more anti-Jericho than it was pro-HOOK. But, in terms of who delivered, my eyes saw Jericho taking some gnarly bumps and really working his ass off to try to "make" HOOK. I am 100% in agreement that Jericho needs to go home for awhile (I've also suggested before that instead of being "Lionheart," he really should be going back to his even lamer bedazzled-vest and short haircut gimmick from the mid-00s when he came back as a lukewarm babyface to feud with Orton), but I thought this was easily the best 15-20 minutes of Jericho I've seen in at least a year or two.

[MoS]

On 4/22/2024 at 5:34 PM, KawadaSmile said:

After having one of their all-time great shows - even in face of another terrible Jericho match - it is with a very heavy heart that I must say that MJF is not at all necessary to AEW's main eent scene. I am not looking forward to a match between him and Ospreay.

I know you despise him, but Meltzer analysed the numbers and actually said the opposite: that the lack of MJF is hurting the company's business on all fronts

[MoS]

Speaking of, Meltz rated Jericho-HOOK 3.25 stars LMAO

[Ricky Jackson]

Had to check out at least Bryan vs Ospreay (watched Okada vs Pac and skimmed a few other bits) and yeah, it was great. Holy crap was it great

[NintendoLogic]

Finally got around to watching Danielson/Ospreay. I dug Danielson's body blows and Ospreay countering a triangle choke with a Styles Clash, but it fell pretty flat for me overall. The biggest turnoff from my perspective was the lack of any real strategic focus, which I feel is a necessity for a match of that length. I like when a wrestler either has a clear game plan going in or capitalizes on an opening and the opponent has to adapt and overcome. They hinted in that direction with Danielson targeting Ospreay's midsection after cutting him off with a kick to the gut and later going after the arm to neutralize the hidden blade, but they never fully committed to it. I checked out completely when Ospreay did a fighting spirit hulk-up roughly one minute after taking a tiger superplex. There were a ridiculous number of spots with next to no margin for error that were executed impeccably, so I'll give them that.

[strobogo]

On 4/26/2024 at 10:03 AM, MoS said:

I know you despise him, but Meltzer analysed the numbers and actually said the opposite: that the lack of MJF is hurting the company's business on all fronts

That can't be accurate. All the metrics were trending down during MJF's title run. I don't think it was him, specifically, but a mix of Punk/WWE being so hot/the angle with Cole being derailed from Cole's injury/AEW moving past the new hot alternative into established secondary company all hitting at the same time. I'm sure the raw numbers will show MJF run > things now, but it was already on a downward trajectory when MJF's reign started.

Similar to Seth Rollins' "record low" ratings for TV during Rollins' first main event run ignoring said ratings were on a literal 13 year straight decline, and a decade later actual ratings are even lower despite WWE's actual business being literally hotter than ever. 

[Dav'oh]

I'm not the sharpest crayon in the lunchbox, are we not seeing a 2024 version of the self-conscious epic every time Bryan Danielson steps in the ring, except now they're called Dream Matches and aren't as near-fall-laden?

He's brilliant at what he does but it's all so...meticulous?

[sek69]

59 minutes ago, Dav'oh said:

I'm not the sharpest crayon in the lunchbox, are we not seeing a 2024 version of the self-conscious epic every time Bryan Danielson steps in the ring, except now they're called Dream Matches and aren't as near-fall-laden?

He's brilliant at what he does but it's all so...meticulous?

Yes, but isn't that part of the appeal of Danielson though? His whole deal is that he's an expert level technical wrestler that is going to slice you up like it's biology class. The way he can do that and still connect so well with the audience is what makes him GOAT status.

[Dav'oh]

Sorry, I didn't mean his offence was meticulous (it is, and you're absolutely right), I find his layouts and "attention to detail" too overt. And I feel like he's got a checklist for his layouts. A perfection that seems incongruous with the world, let alone pro-wrestling. Elvis/ theBeatles/ A-HA didn't bat .1000, deNiro/ Brando/ Jeremy didn't bat .1000, Mayweather had some stinkers, on it goes. And out strolls DB sweeping the Oscars / Tonys /Emmys / Slammies every time out. It's not a knock as much as a comparison to Shawn Michaels' performances, which helped brother El-P give the world Self-Conscious Epic. I'm suggesting Daniel falls in the same category, with his own twist on things.

[Gramsci]

I probably agree, but I struggle to find differences in wrestling matches between what is "Self-Conscious Epic" and what's not. When did that start? Not so long ago I rewatched the famous Inoki v. Robinson and I found that they were trying too hard to have an epic. I think the difference lies in what the audience expects in each era and how the wrestlers adapt to it.

[MoS]

2 hours ago, Dav'oh said:

Sorry, I didn't mean his offence was meticulous (it is, and you're absolutely right), I find his layouts and "attention to detail" too overt. And I feel like he's got a checklist for his layouts. A perfection that seems incongruous with the world, let alone pro-wrestling. Elvis/ theBeatles/ A-HA didn't bat .1000, deNiro/ Brando/ Jeremy didn't bat .1000, Mayweather had some stinkers, on it goes. And out strolls DB sweeping the Oscars / Tonys /Emmys / Slammies every time out. It's not a knock as much as a comparison to Shawn Michaels' performances, which helped brother El-P give the world Self-Conscious Epic. I'm suggesting Daniel falls in the same category, with his own twist on things.

He is the Don Bradman of professional wrestling, Aussie brother

For me, the thing that separates his matches from Shawn's is the lack of overt, overwrought emotional outpourings in the middle of the match. I know you said "his own twist on things" so you probably considered that. It's a fair criticism, much as I love Danielson - incidentally, El-P, if I remember correctly, now eschews the term he coined

[Jmare007]

I feel like, for the most part, Danielson's AEW run is way more about dude being "selfish". Doing the matches he wants to do, with the audience having to deal with whatever he has in store for them. He can't even help laughing and break characcter during matches, lol.. 

The four matches that come to mind that I can see being "self conscious" in this run are Omega, MiSu, Okada at FD (though it had to change due to his injury) and Ospreay.

. 

[El-P]

Ospreay vs Danielson is one of the greatest match I've ever seen. *Again*. Ospreay is just on another level. That's his catchphrase. That's also a reality. He's the greatest pro-wrestler I've ever seen. Okada knew this years ago ("When he'll be 30, he'll be much better than I was at 30"). Danielson knows this now. Talking about this guy, Danielson's last year has been completely insane and one of the most satisfying thing in pro-wrestling ever. If people want to be serious about pro-wrestling as a "craft", not to say art-form, (as opposed to "a business"), this is your model. This is what makes pro-wrestling so great and interesting to me.

The mere fact Young Bucks and FTR were able to follow it same a whole lot about these four. Two of the greatest tag team ever. This match had some rough edges and it made it a whole lot better. The Jack Perry return was perfectly executed. "Cry me a river" being a chant is too funny.

And then Swerve vs Joe had to follow it and they did. Hope Joe is not gonna stray too far from big matches. And Swerve. Killshot would be proud !

Oh, wait, this show had Okada vs Pac as an opener. And O'Reilly vs Strong.

Ridiculous.

Rosa vs Storm was damn good too. Best Rosa has looked since she came back, and best Timeless Toni Storm has looked since the gimmicked up version of herself. 

The week-to-week bitching about AEW, that has been going on for ever (including by me, at various points), is so unwarranted, because their ratio of ridiculous PPV quality is through the roof. That's their aim and they have the best talent in the world to do it. And so they do. As long as this is going on, I'm so there.

(and yeah, Self Conscious Epic was me not being as smart as I thought I was. I learned later how much I did not actually understood. Learning how much you don't know means getting wiser. And I've probably learned more these last 6-7 years than I ever did before)

[strobogo]

Learn deez nutz, bruv