Mad Dog Posted August 8, 2011 Report Share Posted August 8, 2011 My problem with the Bruno Sammartino reign was that it was for a territorial company. Granted, that company had Boston, New York, Philadelphia and D.C. on their regular stops. So he drew some huge houses along the way but if you look at his contemporaries in the NWA you see guys that literally traveled the entire world. I think as far as contemporary reigns go, Dory Funk Jr. and Jack Brisco had a higher level of prestige and even the last Lou Thesz reign is more important. Now, granted, I'm biased. The only footage I've ever seen of the first Bruno reign is a handheld of him losing the belt to Ivan Koloff. I have never run across any other footage of his reign while I have seen several defenses from various NWA champions from the late 50s through the 60s. That effects my outlook on it a lot. As far as WWF reigns go. Hulk Hogan's first reign is more important. He changed the landscape of wrestling with that reign and I don't think you can really take away from that. Or say a regional championship reign was a bigger deal than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted August 8, 2011 Report Share Posted August 8, 2011 http://www.rspwfaq.com/2011/08/07/greatest-reign-ever/ He wasn't watching WWF until at least 1984 if I remember correctly. So this is just going off of what he has heard. Who has though? I mentioned in the previous post, I've seen him lose the belt to Koloff on a shitty handheld where I couldn't even see what was going on. I've never come across any other footage of his title reign. Almost everyone that talk about Sammartino's first reign are basing it off of being 8 years long and have probably seen even less of it than I have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted August 9, 2011 Report Share Posted August 9, 2011 Referring to the WWWF as "just a territory" is selling it short, I think. The BosWash corridor is by far America's most important region from a historical, cultural, and population (especially prior to mass migration to the Sun Belt) standpoint. I'm pretty sure that in Bruno's time, it encompassed a fifth of the US population. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted August 9, 2011 Report Share Posted August 9, 2011 The WWWF controlled more than even just the BosWash. They also had all the cities in upstate New York, Philadelphia, and even New England all the way up into Maine. That is technically a territory, but it's a freakin' gigantic one. Didn't they also run a few shows over the border in Canada occasionally? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted August 9, 2011 Report Share Posted August 9, 2011 Bruno also was on that "Greatest Sports Legends" show hosted by Tom Seaver that was syndicated all over the country. I have it on tape somewhere, and I wish it was available online. It's a hoot. "Some people say wrestling is fixed, Bruno." "Well Tom, I'm not going to say that those things don't happen. But never any of my fights." It's like Capone in the "Untouchables" telling the reporters that his men don't use violence cause it's bad for business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted August 9, 2011 Report Share Posted August 9, 2011 The WWWF controlled more than even just the BosWash. They also had all the cities in upstate New York, Philadelphia, and even New England all the way up into Maine. That is technically a territory, but it's a freakin' gigantic one. Didn't they also run a few shows over the border in Canada occasionally? I don't know if they were officially WWWF shows but they had a working arrangement with Tunney in Toronto. Bruno was up there a lot, I know that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smkelly Posted August 9, 2011 Report Share Posted August 9, 2011 It appears that the Kawada part isn't quite accurate. Neither is the Kobashi part. Kobashi beat Misawa in singles matches in the 1997 and 2000 Champion Carnival Tournaments. You're right about Kawada not being on par with Misawa, but Kobashi was positioned that way in All Japan toward the end of Misawa's run there and in NOAH, before he went down with his knee problems. I had gotten 98 and 03 from a couple of different sources. I'm pretty disappointed to discover that there's inaccurate information on the Internet. Yes, Kobashi was positioned at roughly Misawa's level in 2000 and in NOAH. But in the 90s, Misawa was the clear #1. It is always best to watch footage - and purolove.com is a reliable source for results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 It appears that the Kawada part isn't quite accurate. Neither is the Kobashi part. Kobashi beat Misawa in singles matches in the 1997 and 2000 Champion Carnival Tournaments. You're right about Kawada not being on par with Misawa, but Kobashi was positioned that way in All Japan toward the end of Misawa's run there and in NOAH, before he went down with his knee problems. I had gotten 98 and 03 from a couple of different sources. I'm pretty disappointed to discover that there's inaccurate information on the Internet. Yes, Kobashi was positioned at roughly Misawa's level in 2000 and in NOAH. But in the 90s, Misawa was the clear #1. It is always best to watch footage - and purolove.com is a reliable source for results. I try to watch as much as I can to get a more complete picture. But even though I've probably seen a lot less than anyone else who regularly posts here, I've seen enough to know where my tastes lie. If something doesn't reel me in right away, I just don't have the patience to see it through. Like, I'll download a bunch of lucha or Mid-South or second-tier AJPW, but when I try to watch it, I lose interest in a hurry. It's like the more stuff I watch, the less stuff I end up liking. Anyway, here's some news that's germane to this thread: http://www.rspwfaq.com/2011/08/10/coming-soon/ I can only think of one comparable historical precedent: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Posted August 12, 2011 Report Share Posted August 12, 2011 http://www.rspwfaq.com/2011/08/07/greatest-reign-ever/ He wasn't watching WWF until at least 1984 if I remember correctly. So this is just going off of what he has heard. Who has though? I mentioned in the previous post, I've seen him lose the belt to Koloff on a shitty handheld where I couldn't even see what was going on. I've never come across any other footage of his title reign. Almost everyone that talk about Sammartino's first reign are basing it off of being 8 years long and have probably seen even less of it than I have. Bruno vs Baba: I think Bruno's reign is a fair pick. Eight years uninterupted, drew houses, including Roosevelt Stadium in Jersey City. Defended against all time greats like Killer Kowalski, Fred Blassie, Giant Baba and Ernie Ladd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeCampbell Posted August 13, 2011 Report Share Posted August 13, 2011 Jackson gets a paper bag on his head, and that’s a GREAT gimmick. It’s original, and people can do it themselves if they want. The Beautiful People were doing the same shit in TNA 3 years ago. VERY original. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJH Posted August 13, 2011 Report Share Posted August 13, 2011 Not to mention being totally wrong for Cody Rhodes to be doing, but hey... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruiserBrody Posted August 15, 2011 Report Share Posted August 15, 2011 Huh, figured this got bumped because Keith is recapping again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruiserBrody Posted August 15, 2011 Report Share Posted August 15, 2011 Huh, figured this got bumped because Keith is recapping again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Morris Posted August 16, 2011 Report Share Posted August 16, 2011 I think Hogan belongs at No. 1 because of his reign was a key part of the wrestling landscape changing so much. Austin would be No. 2 and Bruno would be No. 3, IMO, with Rock likely at No. 4 (I don't put him ahead of Bruno because Rock's reigns tended to be short, frequent runs, not a relatively sustained run). Who would be No. 5 is a tougher question. Maybe Cena but that's just off the top of my head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khawk20 Posted August 16, 2011 Report Share Posted August 16, 2011 I think Hogan belongs at No. 1 because of his reign was a key part of the wrestling landscape changing so much. I wouldn't discount the change in landscape that went on in wrestling back when the WWF was created, if that's how you're basing a part of your rating on. Bruno was the guy tapped to be the top dog for a fledgling promotion, and it must have taken something special to pull that off. I'm not saying you're wrong putting Hogan at #1, I'm just saying that Bruno's position was similar: "We've changed things, and you're going to lead us in making that change work". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted August 16, 2011 Report Share Posted August 16, 2011 It would be interesting to see how Bruno was used to build / consolidate the WWWF mega territory. In other words, what it was before Bruno came along, how it as doing, and how it got firmed up. They were extremely succesful in MSG before Bruno, both with Buddy and Rocca before him. Washington had been a stronghold for years before Bruno. Philly? Rogers defenses that Hisa has listed: http://www.wrestling-titles.com/nwa/world/...atches1962.html 02/17 Philadelphia, PA Bearcat Wright 03/17 Philadelphia, PA (eve) Miguel Perez 05/19 Philadelphia, PA (eve) Edouard Carpentier 06/16 Philadelphia, PA Shohei Baba 09/14 Philadelphia, PA Edouard Carpentier 10/13 Philadelphia, PA Hans Schmidt That looks pretty firm like it's part of what would become the WWWF. There were far fewer defenses listed in 1961 for O'Connor and Rogers, whereas Buddy became a regular in 1962 on into 1963: 01/12 Philadelphia, PA Bobo Brazil 01/19 Philadelphia, PA Bobo Brazil Then Lou didn't defend the NWA Title there the whole of 1963. Boston, on the other hand, was it's own territory when the WWWF launched: http://www.legacyofwrestling.com/BostonTerritory.html Looks like it was a while before it became WWWF territory, and even then not very Bruno-centric until 1967. Bruno probably warrants a fair amount of credit for firming that up as a long term WWWF city. Pitt was similar to Philly: 07/07/61 Pittsburgh, PA Antonino Rocca 08/04/61 Pittsburgh, PA Reggie Lisowski 09/08/61 Pittsburgh, PA Reggie Lisowski 10/17/61 Pittsburgh, PA Johnny Valentine 11/06/61 Pittsburgh, PA Reggie Lisowski 02/05/62 Pittsburgh, PA Johnny Valentine 03/05/62 Pittsburgh, PA Reggie Lisowski 04/02/62 Pittsburgh, PA Bruno Sammartino 05/07/62 Pittsburgh, PA Art Thomas 07/02/62 Pittsburgh, PA Reggie Lisowski 08/10/62 Pittsburgh, PA Bobo Brazil 10/15/62 Pittsburgh, PA Edouard Carpentier 11/05/62 Pittsburgh, PA Bruno Sammartino O'Connor defenses in Pitt are pretty sparse. Of course Buddy's career is much more documented via record books than Pat's has been. Bruno deserves a lot of credit for being an anchor for a helluva long time, strong enough that he had that second run that did terrific business and didn't really have an end in sight if he wanted to hang on for several more years. Super impressive. But it does look like some of the other key cities were similar to MSG: they were getting a work out before Bruno got on top. Don't know if anyone has ever documented well the attendence in those cities. Anyway... I kind of go back to some of the points we bounced around in the Expansion Thread, and previously at WC. Expanding into the Mid West, taking what had been mediocre attempts to expand to the West the year before and lighting a fire under them, pretty much gobbling up the entire middle of the country other than Texas, and over time taking Florida... that's just epic huge stuff. People have often time tossed out alternative scenarios where someone other than Hogan could have anchored Vince's expansion, but I think most people who are totally objective about it probably reach the conclusion that there really wasn't anyone who could have matched and sustained things like Hogan. I probably would put Bruno #2 for longevity over Austin. The probably for Austin is the way the comment was originally phrased: World Title Reigns. It's not like Austin had one definative title reign during his hottest stretch. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummer Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 Huh, figured this got bumped because Keith is recapping again Shit I just realized this today. It's like I'm a junior in college again. Is anyone paying attention to his glorious return? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeCampbell Posted August 25, 2011 Report Share Posted August 25, 2011 Bill Apter sets Scooter straight about the PWI mags being on Crockett's payroll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted August 25, 2011 Report Share Posted August 25, 2011 I think, even now, Apter is incapable of shooting, but it's really irresponsible to post that on a blog based on what you have "always heard" without citing a source. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeCampbell Posted August 25, 2011 Report Share Posted August 25, 2011 Probably because Keith doesn't really have a source, let alone multiple sources. It was the same story years ago when Dave Meltzer made it crystal clear that there was never any plan for Steve Austin to win the WWF Title at Final Four. All Keith could say was "I thought that's what I read in the WON." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovert Posted August 25, 2011 Report Share Posted August 25, 2011 I think, even now, Apter is incapable of shooting, but it's really irresponsible to post that on a blog based on what you have "always heard" without citing a source. Imagine getting sued for falsehoods by Bill Apter of all people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted August 26, 2011 Report Share Posted August 26, 2011 For what it's worth I think Keith's original Monday Night Wars rants and the PPV rants he did of old shows during that time are good time capsule pieces capturing the zeitgeist and to an extent epitomizing everything that was wrong with the nascent IWC smart fan. I hate Scott Keith, I really do, but he nicely symbolizes a whole generation of fans for me. All of whom I hate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted August 26, 2011 Report Share Posted August 26, 2011 It's not popular to say but I like Keith. I think when he's just recapping and throwing some jokes in there that he's an enjoyable read. It's when he goes beyond that, that he totally falls apart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted August 26, 2011 Report Share Posted August 26, 2011 For what it's worth I think Keith's original Monday Night Wars rants and the PPV rants he did of old shows during that time are good time capsule pieces capturing the zeitgeist and to an extent epitomizing everything that was wrong with the nascent IWC smart fan. I hate Scott Keith, I really do, but he nicely symbolizes a whole generation of fans for me. All of whom I hate. I read him at one point, so I get this. It's kinda like that embarrassing yearbook photo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted August 26, 2011 Report Share Posted August 26, 2011 What always winds me up about Keith is that if a match has a big man in it, who isn't Vader or Bam Bam, he will AUTOMATICALLY give it a DUD. He's the text book example of a guy who thinks that great working is doing suplexes and/ or flippy floppy moves. Don't think he's ever given a One Man Gang match more than * I've said it hundreds of times, but he just doesn't understand wrestling. The "he played his role well" line is perhaps a cliche on this board, but it's obviously one that Keith either never understood or, for some reason, objected to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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