Dave Meltzer stuff

[rovert]

On a related note are this weekend's Dragon Gate shows going to tank hard?

[Ditch]

I'm going to add that Sawa couldn't draw 800 people in Japan.

[shawmic]

Danielson is working for North East Wrestling on 10/1 and it will end up drawing 1,500-2,000 paid. You won't hear about in the Observer though because it 1) wasn't booked by Gabe and 2) wouldn't jive with the independent wrestling is dead because Gabe told me everyone wants to go into MMA bullshit.

[Grimmas]

Danielson is working for North East Wrestling on 10/1 and it will end up drawing 1,500-2,000 paid. You won't hear about in the Observer though because it 1) wasn't booked by Gabe and 2) wouldn't jive with the independent wrestling is dead because Gabe told me everyone wants to go into MMA bullshit.

You really believe that? If someone sends in a report it will be in the Observer, its that simple.

[kjh]

Danielson is working for North East Wrestling on 10/1 and it will end up drawing 1,500-2,000 paid. You won't hear about in the Observer though because it 1) wasn't booked by Gabe and 2) wouldn't jive with the independent wrestling is dead because Gabe told me everyone wants to go into MMA bullshit.

You really believe that? If someone sends in a report it will be in the Observer, its that simple.

Yeah, results of prior major North East Wrestling shows have appeared in the Observer.

[shawmic]

It isn't so much printing the results, it's acting like independent wrestling is dead because Gabe can't draw anymore despite the fact other companies are doing well.

[MikeCampbell]

I think Gabe is right in the sense that three years ago Danielson vs. Sawa would draw 800 fans.

 

Three years ago Gabe was still booking ROH, and could spend weeks pimping Sawa in the ROH newswires as some kind of Japanese hot property and how lucky the ROH fans are that they could get to see him live. The same way he tried pimping Marufuji vs. Shiozaki in NYC as some huge first time match between them, despite it being pointed out that they'd faced several times already in NOAH.

[jdw]

Am I reading between the lines of the comments that Evolve just isn't the draw that ROH is? That if Gabe was still in ROH, Bryan was still the ROH Champ (rather than a guy folks can now see for free on WWE tv), and that Gabe had a month or more to pimp the greatness of Sawa as a dreamy opponent for Bryan, that the thing would have drawn more than 300 in the NY Market?

 

John

[Ditch]

I doubt any amount of ROH Newswires would make people think Sawa was must-see. It's not as if he's someone like 2007 Ibushi who was unknown but you could put together a great highlight reel for. Sawa's trademarks are the Shining Wizard (which was already ubiquitous in like 2003) and the baseball-style punch. KENTA, Marufuji and others had built-in hype when making an ROH debut because they'd been talked up by Meltzer and other puro followers for years; Sawa hasn't. Someone like Hidaka, who's a notch or two below KENTA in the eyes of the IWC, is way more marketable thanks to his longer career, more WON mentions, and multiple appearances in the US pre-Evolve... and I still doubt Danielson vs Hidaka with little undercard support would have drawn 800 in Jersey.

 

Before Evolve got going I was asked by someone with a connection to them who I'd recommend they try to use, with a strong implication of "that wouldn't cost much". Sawa and Hidaka were the ones they liked going in, and I just didn't see Sawa as someone to come in and right off the bat have a money-producing MOTYC dream match. He can certainly get over and become a couple-hundred-people draw in time, but it's starting from scratch with a guy who lacks a spectacular moveset.

 

edit: Evolve isn't the draw ROH was, or is today. It's a young company that runs irregularly. That match on a proper ROH card would have drawn better, but it would have had more support and a much more recognized brand behind it. Maybe that's what he's referring to? But in that case, Danielson vs Sawa would only have been responsible for a fraction of the overall draw.

[MikeCampbell]

John, EVOLVE has never really drawn big numbers beyond their first show. EVOLVE 2 was only like 150 and Gabe blamed that on rain. EVOLVE 3 wasn't much more than that, and, according to my buddy who own the local indy here in Syracuse, Gabe was claiming that it was due to taking place on May 1st, which was a beautiful spring day. I'm not sure about EVOLVE 4 or 5, but I don't think either did over 300.

[Sean Liska]

Gabe may have drawn better if he matched Bryan up with Jacobs or Quackenbush, you know, guys with more name recognition to the average indy fan.

Jacobs wouldn't draw. Maybe Quack, but the Sawa match will do better DVD sales since it's a new match.

[Jingus]

On the ROH/Evolve difference: has there been any talk about why Gabe is booking the crew he's got now? He seems to be either unwilling or unable to book most of his old favorite hands from the previous company, many of whom still work for ROH. There have been a few cases so it doesn't seem like there's a cross-promotional ban, but it is weird to see Evolve working with cards full of guys who Gabe wouldn't book on his shows just a couple years ago.

[MikeCampbell]

He probably can't afford to bring in all of his old favorites, especially when EVOLVE isn't drawing that well. I don't have specific numbers, because Josh doesn't go into specifics with me when we talk about this kind of shit, but (direct from Brodie Lee supposedly) EVOLVE really doesn't pay that much.

[kjh]

I said just after Danielson got fired: "It's a worrying sign that Gabe Sapolsky booked Bryan Danielson so quickly and is promoting the whole (Dragon Gate PPV) show around his inevitably shortlived return". The move came across as a bit of a Hail Mary to me at the time; now it seems like a blown opportunity, as I don't think Gabe got anything out of Danielson other than a short term bump in business and even that bump wasn't as big as he expected.

[jdw]

How many total shows does Evolve run a month vs ROH?

 

What does Evolve draw vs ROH?

 

It sounds like Evolve can't afford Gabe's old guys.

 

Would I be correct in saying that ROH doesn't want their guys working for Evolve, while it's okay for them to take non-conflicting dates with indies such as PWG? If that's the case, it sounds like a matter of:

 

* more dates with ROH vs fewer with Evolve

* more $$ with ROH vs less with Evolve

* ROH leaves them open to work plenty of other dates

 

Not a hard choice.

 

John

[goc]

I think Gabe is just looking for anything to blame to avoid facing up to the fact that the concept behind EVOLVE just doesn't have the audience he thought it did.

[Tim Cooke]

I think Gabe wanted to try to make EVOLVE the first US promotion that incorporated various styles of wrestling on each card, kind of like those New Years Eve Japanese shows where 7-8 indies would get together to throw a big show with many different styles (BattlArts, DDT comedy, Big Japan deathwrestling). Thus the involvement of Chikara along with Danielson and Richards anchoring the promotion working more "realistic" matches. Without Danielson (and maybe even with him), there was no hope of that happening and trying to establish new talent is cheaper than paying for already established talent. Just the fact that they were running in the building in NJ that doesn't hold more than 300 people is a sign of what they thought would happen. The DVD market tanking/rise of torrents and downloads null and voids the ROH model of surviving once and for all.

[rovert]

I think Gabe is just looking for anything to blame to avoid facing up to the fact that the concept behind EVOLVE just doesn't have the audience he thought it did.

Gabe has been harping on about how strong the ROH brand is as a "excuse" recently.

 

 

The DVD market tanking/rise of torrents and downloads null and voids the ROH model of surviving once and for all.

All that and ROH deep discounting DVDs having 2 for 3 sales seemingly every week.

[shawmic]

It doesn't help that DGUSA's DVDs are 4 months (approaching 5) behind. There's just no excuse for that in 2010. He's been claiming they are working on fixing that for a year now.

[Cox]

How can they possibly be four months behind when they run like 10 shows a year, if that? That's almost unfathomable.

[rovert]

How can they possibly be four months behind when they run like 10 shows a year, if that? That's almost unfathomable.

Sal(?) their DVD production guy his enroled in college and/or there was a problem in the recording of those shows is the rumour.

[Jingus]

Would I be correct in saying that ROH doesn't want their guys working for Evolve, while it's okay for them to take non-conflicting dates with indies such as PWG?

That's the thing I'd be interested in knowing. There's been enough ROH guys who worked for Evolve to cast doubt on that theory: Homicide, Hero, Claudio, and Jack Evans have all shown up in Evolve. And Davey Richards was one of the original founders of the company. But then he supposedly signed a new contract with ROH or something, and never worked for Evolve again. So there's something going on there, but I don't know exactly what.

[MikeCampbell]

How many total shows does Evolve run a month vs ROH?

EVOLVE runs once every other month versus ROH running TV tapings every six weeks or so, plus a few DVD tapings each month.

 

What does Evolve draw vs ROH?

EVOLVE's biggest crowd was their first show which was about 500, EVOLVE 2 and 3 were both in the 150 range or so I've heard. I don't know anything about 4 or 5 but I've heard they were both under 300.

 

Would I be correct in saying that ROH doesn't want their guys working for Evolve, while it's okay for them to take non-conflicting dates with indies such as PWG? If that's the case, it sounds like a matter of:

The only person who ROH doesn't seem to want to be working EVOLVE is Davey Richards. Homicide appeared at the last EVOLVE show, and Hero and Claudio have worked EVOVLE since March. So Davey seems like an odd exception. I'd like to ask him about it, since he works the local indy in my area, but I've never had the chance to. Now, Kyle O'Riley who EVOLVE was pushing as Davey's protege, was just signed to an ROH contract.

[Phil Schneider]

Would I be correct in saying that ROH doesn't want their guys working for Evolve, while it's okay for them to take non-conflicting dates with indies such as PWG?

That's the thing I'd be interested in knowing. There's been enough ROH guys who worked for Evolve to cast doubt on that theory: Homicide, Hero, Claudio, and Jack Evans have all shown up in Evolve. And Davey Richards was one of the original founders of the company. But then he supposedly signed a new contract with ROH or something, and never worked for Evolve again. So there's something going on there, but I don't know exactly what.

 

 

Jack Evans doesn't work Evolve or ROH

[Jingus]

Jack Evans doesn't work Evolve or ROH

Is he full-time in Mexico now? It's a shame I haven't kept up, because I used to be friends with that goofy little kid. We commiserated over stupid little shit like how the Final Fantasy games had gotten worse and worse over the years. But I haven't talked to him in a few years now, when you don't ever see people you just gradually lose contact with them. Doing a wee bit of research, I see that I was half right: he was scheduled to wrestle for Evolve, which I heard about, but cancelled on the show at some point.

 

But still, the larger point remains: there's some kind of weird semi-ban of talent working for both ROH and Evolve, but it certainly hasn't been explained.