Dave Meltzer stuff

[FMKK]

Someone needs to severely restrict Meltzer's Twitter access. Or just send him to a Race and Racism 101 seminar.

[Beast]

The discussion was about why guys like Dibiase, Windham, and others weren't given the NWA Title in the '80s. Butch Reed was brought up, Dave said if they thought he would draw he would be considered, Bix said no he wouldn't because the business was super racist back then.

 

Dave said green was the only color that mattered, Bix said Watts was the most progressive promoter of the time and was still super racist. Brought up how he tried to replace JYD with Wells and Snowman because he thought blacks were all the same. Dave said that proved Watts put money before race because he was pushing black wrestlers, regardless of ability.

 

Dave has been consistent in saying that racism existed, but most promoters didn't let it impact their booking to the point where they'd sit a drawing wrestler because of skin color.

[FMKK]

He just always makes those points so clumsily though.

[Grimmas]

He just always makes those points so clumsily though.

It's hard to make points not clumsy, when they are completely wrong.

[Beast]

 

 

He just always makes those points so clumsily though.

It's hard to make points not clumsy, when they are completely wrong.

Clumsy but not wrong

[flyonthewall2983]

Wasn't there a reliability problem with Butch? I heard that being cited as to why he didn't win the IC belt from Steamboat in '87, and some of his runs later in WCW attested to that a little.

[Grimmas]

 

 

He just always makes those points so clumsily though.

It's hard to make points not clumsy, when they are completely wrong.

Clumsy but not wrong

 

What?

 

Bill Watts was a racist, because he thought the black fans would accept any black wrestler as a star, so kept pushing George Wells, Snowman, etc.. as replacements for JYD. Not realizing JYD was a star, because of his charisma.

 

He's saying that's not racism against black people, but in fact, Bill Watts was being racist against white people there? That's Dave's point, and it's just wrong. Bill Watts was not racist against white people when pushing George Wells and Snowman.

[PeteF3]

I still say Watts' most progressive move ever was not pushing JYD or any other black star, it was making Ernie Ladd a booker.

[Matt D]

 

 

 

He just always makes those points so clumsily though.

It's hard to make points not clumsy, when they are completely wrong.

Clumsy but not wrong

 

What?

 

Bill Watts was a racist, because he thought the black fans would accept any black wrestler as a star, so kept pushing George Wells, Snowman, etc.. as replacements for JYD. Not realizing JYD was a star, because of his charisma.

 

He's saying that's not racism against black people, but in fact, Bill Watts was being racist against white people there? That's Dave's point, and it's just wrong. Bill Watts was not racist against white people when pushing George Wells and Snowman.

 

Steven,

 

I think Watts understood how charismatic JYD was and how hard he would be to replace. What he was trying to do was to provide representation to a large portion of his audience that had been drawn in by JYD in part (but certainly not completely) due to his race with the limited options he had available. He did this so that they would continue to buy tickets. That doesn't mean he wasn't racist. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't, but I think that things are much more nuanced than you're presenting.

 

We're in a world right now where there's a lot of discussion about providing minority (racial, lgbt, or otherwise) representation in media. Some of it is well-meaning. Some of it is highly profit driven (such as including generally throwaway Chinese characters and/or moments in movies so that a movie will "draw" in China).

[Grimmas]

 

 

 

 

He just always makes those points so clumsily though.

It's hard to make points not clumsy, when they are completely wrong.

Clumsy but not wrong

 

What?

 

Bill Watts was a racist, because he thought the black fans would accept any black wrestler as a star, so kept pushing George Wells, Snowman, etc.. as replacements for JYD. Not realizing JYD was a star, because of his charisma.

 

He's saying that's not racism against black people, but in fact, Bill Watts was being racist against white people there? That's Dave's point, and it's just wrong. Bill Watts was not racist against white people when pushing George Wells and Snowman.

 

Steven,

 

I think Watts understood how charismatic JYD was and how hard he would be to replace. What he was trying to do was to provide representation to a large portion of his audience that had been drawn in by JYD in part (but certainly not completely) due to his race with the limited options he had available. He did this so that they would continue to buy tickets. That doesn't mean he wasn't racist. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't, but I think that things are much more nuanced than you're presenting.

 

We're in a world right now where there's a lot of discussion about providing minority (racial, lgbt, or otherwise) representation in media. Some of it is well-meaning. Some of it is highly profit driven (such as including generally throwaway Chinese characters and/or moments in movies so that a movie will "draw" in China).

 

Which are fair points. Metlzer did brush it off that ALL promoters were not racist and only saw green (came from a discussion why Butch Reed was never in NWA Title contention).

 

Wanting represenation of minorities is great (I praise my government for making their cabinet half men, half women with sikh and native members). However, calling that reverse racism is just insanity. Also saying racism didn't matter to bookers is just insanity.

[Matt D]

Far more problematic is someone like Verne, who'd almost never use black guys, and when he did, it'd probably be Kamala. But then, who drew in St. Paul?

 

I guess the point is that it's complicated and you shouldn't use too wide a brush, neither you nor Meltzer.

[Grimmas]

Far more problematic is someone like Verne, who'd almost never use black guys, and when he did, it'd probably be Kamala. But then, who drew in St. Paul?

 

I guess the point is that it's complicated and you shouldn't use too wide a brush, neither you nor Meltzer.

It was a small example, when Meltzer said promoters never showed racism, they only cared about money. A small example Bix used, which Meltzer called reverse racism.

 

To deny any promoters didn't push certain people due to racism is insanity on Meltzer's part.

[WingedEagle]

Perhaps Twitter isn't the best place to discuss topics that require actual discussions. Hopefully most of us have thoughts on such topics that go beyond 140 characters and can recognize that others who think about these things for more than a minute would likewise be constrained under such limits. Seems silly to dig in our heels in either corner on that little discussion.

[WrestlingPower]

To change gears here, Dave & Bryan had quite the discussion around the cruiserweight division & 205 Live on the latest podcast.

 

Meltzer was really passionate in arguing that the style is ruining the division. He was saying Dragon Gate should be the template to set the division apart (as if that was going to happen). Also that all the small guys should be in there, like Strong, Almas, Neville, etc. I don't disagree with his points.

 

Alvarez brought up an interesting point that he thinks the idea of the division is a relic of the 90s regardless of how it's presented. Saying when guys like Owens, Rollins, etc. are routinely doing high end matches with many spots traditionally associated with cruiserweights, it makes no sense to even have a separate division. Not sure I would have come up with that point myself but I kind of see some merit in that thought as well.

 

Just thought it was an interesting discussion as it started as the usual complaint-fest and Meltzer got progressively more ramped up in talking about it.

[Matt D]

What's funny to me is how much the cruiserweight division sort of feels like the 1998 WCW cruiserweight division.

[Beast]

Perhaps Twitter isn't the best place to discuss topics that require actual discussions. Hopefully most of us have thoughts on such topics that go beyond 140 characters and can recognize that others who think about these things for more than a minute would likewise be constrained under such limits. Seems silly to dig in our heels in either corner on that little discussion.

 

Keeping that in mind, here is Dave's summary when not faced with character limits.

 

"Yep, quite the argument, I got asked why Butch Reed was never made NWA champion and said it was because Ric Flair was a better fit at the time.

Bix says yes, Flair was better, but if Reed was better he'd still have never been champ.

 

I say you don't know that.

 

He says Bill Watts pushed Master Gee, Snowman and some other guys AND was racist, so every single promoter was racist.

 

I say whatever Watts was, and he said some pretty abhorrent things in the 90s which he later himself said he was wrong in saying, he cared more about making money than anything else, and pushing blacks ahead of whites who were far better doesn't constitute being racist against blacks in how he operated his business. Personally, that's a different issue which has been debated. Watts said some really dumb things which ended up costing him his job with WCW (he said them before he worked there and it was inevitable they would bite him in the ass) and if you call him racist because of it, I won't argue, but to say he wouldn't push a wrestler who he thought was marketable due to skin color, I know well enough as a promoter, he cared first and foremost about making money and his track record of who he pushed showed if anything, he erred in the other direction.

 

I used the word reverse racism, probably not the best term, perhaps affirmative action would be it, but I don't believe that's the term either. The real term is he made mistakes as a promoter in quest to make the most money he could and was wrong about the marketability of some talent. Just like everyone who promotes.

 

Not to mention Watts wasn't even in the NWA at the time in question.

 

But the argument is that if there in the 80s was a black wrestler who could work like Flair, draw like Flair and promo like Flair, would he have gotten an NWA title run. Given that there was no such individual in the 80s, the answer is we don't know.

 

But some people need to believe everyone was a racist, including Bix who said every single promoter was racist which is such bullshit it's not even funny, as foolish as saying every promoter beat his wife, when the obvious answer I gave, we don't know, is the only answer that can be given honestly.

 

I talked to enough promoters then about the NWA title, and never once did anyone, when I brought up that every Butch Reed, say he couldn't be champion because he was black. In fact, one promoter brought up Reed to me and thought maybe they should make him champion because he was black, just because it had never been done with that belt before, while conceding he couldn't draw or promo like Flair and was working at the time for Watts so it wasn't going to happen.

 

He wasn't considered because the people in charge felt Flair was better or he wasn't working in the NWA. He wasn't given a transitional run because he was not as charismatic as Dusty nor working in the NWA, and in 1987, when Garvin got it, he wasn't in JCP so wasn't under consideration.

 

And the idea there was a quota that a territory could only have one black wrestler working there at a time, and I'm sure if you look hard enough you'll find somewhere that's true in the 50s or 60s (and Verne Gagne never pushed African-American wrestlers except in Chicago where he did), but the heyday of Butch Reed was probably 1984-85, so that's hardly applicable. But one look at territories will show in most cases that wasn't true at all.

 

Without a doubt there were racist promoters in pro wrestling, but the idea every single promoter from that era was racist is ridiculous.

 

Then he started quoting anti-Gay stuff Watts said and claimed he was the most liberal of promoters when everyone knows Watts was a raving conservative."

[Bix]

Well, that's definitely an interesting way to (mis)characterize what I said.

[sek69]

I mean, I just don't see how anyone could look at Butch Reed (as good as he was) and think he'd be on the short list to be world champion unless it was a 2 week angle kind of deal.

[Hawkeye12]

I mean, I just don't see how anyone could look at Butch Reed (as good as he was) and think he'd be on the short list to be world champion unless it was a 2 week angle kind of deal.

 

Agreed, and if you wanted just a Tommy Rich type reign you could give it to JYD instead.

[goc]

Alvarez brought up an interesting point that he thinks the idea of the division is a relic of the 90s regardless of how it's presented. Saying when guys like Owens, Rollins, etc. are routinely doing high end matches with many spots traditionally associated with cruiserweights, it makes no sense to even have a separate division. Not sure I would have come up with that point myself but I kind of see some merit in that thought as well.

I made a topic saying pretty much exactly that at the end of September when I heard they were bringing back a cruiserweight division. When you've got a guy as big as Luke Harper regularly doing dives and stuff the cruiserweights would have to go SO beyond what WWE would want it's wrestlers do that a cruiserweight division will never work.

 

 

 

Personally I don't really see what the point of a cruiserweight division is in 2016. What's the hook? What makes it stand out from the rest of the matches in WWE? Does WWE really need a "flippy do/workrate division" when half the guys in the company do some kind of dive? At a period when the pace of most WWE matches is faster than ever I don't see how the CWs can stand out. I don't see any positives to it and all it seems like it will do is limit guys' career who start in that division as it kind of sticks them with a "can't hang with the rest of the roster" stink.

[Loss]

I don't think the measure of a promoter's racism is the degree to which he does or does not push minority wrestlers. It's how he speaks privately to an extent, but more what he believes in his heart, whether that plays out in his business decisions or not. Watts isn't a racist because he pushed JYD or tried to replace him with other black wrestlers, nor is he a racist in spite of that. His racism has nothing to do with that. Now, his racism may manifest itself in other ways through Mid South's presentation, as we've seen through the years with Vince McMahon's 70s funk obsession with black wrestlers for example, but the idea that the degree of capitalist exploitation of an African-American is something we point to as proof of him as being racist or not being racist is something I don't get. And yes, they were all racist. The n-word was an insider term. There you go. Doesn't that sort of end that debate?

[BBscout]

Saying when guys like Owens, Rollins, etc. are routinely doing high end matches with many spots traditionally associated with cruiserweights, it makes no sense to even have a separate division. Not sure I would have come up with that point myself but I kind of see some merit in that thought as well.

Separate division is fine. Rollins is taller and Owens is wider than these 205 guys. No matter if they're all doing the same shit, it's still basic real life that a bigger guy can toss around a smaller guy.

[Bix]

And yes, they were all racist. The n-word was an insider term. There you go. Doesn't that sort of end that debate?

 

I tried. It didn't.

[sek69]

To be fair, you kind of have to grade on a sliding scale when you had guys who were open KKK members in those days. Casual n-word usage seems kind of tame by comparison. It all looks bad with 2016 optics, but there is a "element of their time" aspect to it as well.

[Johnny Sorrow]

I still don't buy this idea that "nigger" was an insider term. Bullshit. The only racist term that has a separate meaning in wrestling is "Shine".