Guys you "should" like but don't?

[smkelly]

  Kostka said:

  smkelly said:

Von Erichs, Killer Khan, Lawler, Dundee, Fujiwara, Hashimoto (most of the time), Choshu (most of the time), a lot of the lucha Gods, Austin Aries, Colt Cabana, El Generico, Davey Richards, Eddie Edwards, Mr. Anderson, Drew McIntyre, Chris Masters, Cena, Rock, Hogan.

 

I could go on.

 

And I think some of those dudes I plain just dislike, like the Von Erichs.

No offense but...Jesus, man.

 

I was wondering if my anti-what-everyone-else-likes-post killed the board

 

But yeah. I'm not as high on those as everyone else. I'm too heavily biased towards pre-split All Japan to really like anything else non-All Japan pre-split anymore. Most of 'em are good workers, but I just have different preferences of what is good, mediocre, and outright bad.

[shoe]

I'm pretty open minded about things. Though I have never been able to get into female wrestling. I don't know why. Another thing is with the high end indy stuff. I hate all those snarky chants from the fans. It can really just kill a match.

[Dylan Waco]

This seems like revisionism now, but I was never a fan of Benoit. Always acknowledged that he was great in the most mechanical sense possible and he had some wonderful matches. But he was never someone I really wanted to go out of my way to see.

[Mad Dog]

Benoit was my absolute favorite from about 1999 till his World Title reign ended. He had gotten really painful to watch towards the last couple years of his career though. I've changed my minds on a lot of guys the last couple of years but I haven't been able to bring myself to actually watch a Benoit match since he murdered his family.

 

A little off topic, my biggest flip flops recently have been Bret Hart and the Ultimate Warrior. I've found Hart to be predictable and overrated to a degree and I've found that Ultimate Warrior has a little more merit as a worker than he gets credit for.

[Frankensteiner]

If we're talking flip-flops then I have to say Ric Flair (I wasn't going to bring him up because I think there's plenty of people that seem to dislike Flair these days so the opinion isn't contrarian). He still has matches that I like a lot but it's usually more for the opponent. And the ones I dislike are because of Flair. He's just so repetetive and non-sensical that it becomes difficult to enjoy his stuff. People always bring him up as this serious NWA champ but he's just as much of a cartoon character as Hogan.

 

As far as Undertaker, I would probably rather watch him in the 90s than now. I don't understand the point of him coming out with his dead-man gimmick and then wrestling as an MMA fighter.

 

Another guy is Jerry Lawler. Now, I think he's excellent and when I watch his highly acclaimed matches they are always great. But for whatever reason I don't really have any desire to watch more or go out of my way to track down more stuff from Memphis (maybe part of it there's so much footage to track down that it's too daunting).

[El-P]

  Dylan Waco said:

This seems like revisionism now, but I was never a fan of Benoit. Always acknowledged that he was great in the most mechanical sense possible and he had some wonderful matches. But he was never someone I really wanted to go out of my way to see.

When I was watching 90's NJ TV back in 2002/2003, the famous Benoit/Liger series didn't do that much for me. To the point I enjoyed Liger vs Blood Outlaw Norio Honaga a lot more, and I dig Choshu's big single matches way more than Benoit's too.

[Coffey]

I was never a fan of Benoit's either. He was kinda boring. It takes more than just in-ring technical skill to entertain me. Although he did have some matches that I dig, like his Rumble match with Angle.

 

I never liked Eddie Guerrero until he went to WWE either, and I've always hated Mysterio.

 

(I love The Undertaker though)

[Loss]

This is becoming a thread to just list wrestlers. I am going to close the thread if you guys don't start explaining what it is that turns you off of a particular wrestler. (Doesn't apply to everyone, of course, as some of you are explaining.)

[Tim Cooke]

I don't hate and I certainly appreciate his work but Negro Navarro doesn't do it for me most of the time. The contradiction is that he was in one of the best matches I've ever seen live and I really like his 2001-2002 IWRG stuff with Dandy. Think he falls into the Dylan-Jumbo category for me: he is good, no doubt about it, but I don't need to watch another match of his.

[khawk20]

If it's true that HHH embraces the old school, watches it, studies it, and tries to employ old school ideas and techniques in his matches, then I should really like the guy...or should have liked him at some point.

 

...but I have never liked him one bit, not his look, style, or promo ability. I SHOULD have liked him at some point, even briefly, but I never have.

[Victator]

I swear for years I would defend Benoit saying he had charisma. I called it "Mad Dog killer" charisma. How right I was.

[Loss]

I definitely have no desire to get into a back and forth defending Benoit, so I'll try to make this a more global point -- charisma can manifest itself in many ways. It doesn't require great promo ability. Someone doesn't have to be The Rock to be charismatic. They have to possess a certain star quality and get the audience involved in their matches.

[Dylan Waco]

Not saying Benoit doesn't have that, but here is the thing. What is the definitive Benoit match? I've talked about this with others before. With other great wrestlers there are multiple matches that feel like they would fit into a canon. It's not that Benoit has no such match, but he really has far fewer than you would think for a guy that was routinely listed as a top ten all time guy before he massacred his family. He just doesn't connect for me either on the emotional level or on the "underdog fun" level like say a 99 Kaz Hayashi type. He's stuck inbetween being too good to be "below the radar" but not transcendent enough to be an all time peak performer guy. He's like the anti-Choshu to me.

[Log]

Are you guys just trying to troll RE back here with all this Benoit and Dynamite Kid talk?

 

  Dylan Waco said:

He's like the anti-Choshu to me.

What do you mean by this?

[Dylan Waco]

Choshu is a guy who's raw charisma and presence make every match better and make him stand out more. Benoit is the opposite.

[MikeCampbell]

I think my issue with Inoki is similar to Loss with PWFG and RINGS. I just can't get into it for the life of me. A few years back a dude made an Inoki/Baba comparison comp. It featured matches of both Inoki and Baba aginst Jack Brisco, The Destroyer, Billy Robinson, and maybe someone else I'm forgetting. The Baba matches blew me away, while Inoki just bored me to tears, they all came off like they were just laying on the mat to kill time. I dunno if everyone was supposed to think that Inoki was being "legit" and be excited by that prospect or what the case was.

[smkelly]

  Quote

Von Erichs

Cena

Rock

Hogan

They're all capable workers in their own regards, but if their matches are next on a DVD or on TV, I would rather watch someone else. I hate the idea of an unbeatable face who makes near impossible comebacks when the deck is stacked heavily against them.

 

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Lawler

Dundee

Like almost every wrestler on my list, they're capable workers but their style of wrestling is too hokey for me, a la the Von Erichs. Lawler had invincible Superman tendencies as well. And unlike other hailed epic matches, like 6/3/94 or 1/20/97 - backstory is not a requirement for an awesome match. I watched the two pimped Loser Leaves Town matches and thought that, yeah, they are good, but they're nowhere near what some say they are.

 

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Killer Khan

Hashimoto (most of the time)

Choshu (most of the time)

Fujiwara

Just never got into them as much as some. Again, all good workers, but I'd rather watch Hansen, Misawa, Kawada, Kobashi, Liger, etc than them.

 

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A lot of the lucha Gods

Lucha as a style is too hokey for me. I can understand a backdrop driver ending a match but not a hurricanrana. About the only lucha I really like is the stuff ECW had with Misterio versus Psicosis.

 

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Austin Aries

Colt Cabana

El Generico

Davey Richards

Eddie Edwards

I dislike comedy wrestling so Colt is nixed, and the other guys are what some would consider consciousness workers that do the moves they've seen in epic matches but don't really do anything else that is involved with the making of an epic match - like selling.

 

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Mr. Anderson

I've always thought he sucked.

 

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Drew McIntyre

Chris Masters

Maybe if they were pushed more I would like them more but they seem like poor man replacements for superworkers. I mean, they are good workers, but I'd rather watch Rey, Punk, and especially Danielson any match on any show of the week.

[Tim Evans]

After watching a bunch of 92 WCW and most of his pimped matches, I'm going to say Barry Windham. He's not a bad wrestler but I just can't get into him. He was better as a heel I thought. Just seemed so lanky and his Lariat's bothered me.

[Victator]

  Quote

and his Lariat's bothered me.

Are you also bothered by sunshine on a cloudy day?

[JerryvonKramer]

  Tim Evans said:

After watching a bunch of 92 WCW and most of his pimped matches, I'm going to say Barry Windham. He's not a bad wrestler but I just can't get into him. He was better as a heel I thought. Just seemed so lanky and his Lariat's bothered me.

No, I'm with you there. He even said it himself on a shoot: he's the most overrated worker of all time.

 

That suplex into a pin he does is really sweet though.

[Loss]

Barry Windham was an outstanding pro wrestler on natural gifts alone. It came really easy for him to be great, and I think if he had huge dedication to wrestling, he would probably be remembered as the best wrestler that ever lived. Everything he did looked so effortless, and he had amazing agility for a guy his size. The glassy eyed selling, the suplexes and DDTs, the lariat ... I really don't see what's not to like. In some cases, I can see the point being made even if I don't agree with it. Barry Windham criticism has always been something that completely baffled me.

 

I do agree that he was better as a heel. The '88 run is what gets the most attention typically, but post-heel turn at the November '92 Clash, Windham went on a really hot run and looked like a guy who was finally going to meet his potential.

[El-P]

Yep, totally agree. Windham at his peak was the best wrestler on the planet.

[JerryvonKramer]

I don't know, maybe it's because things came so easy to him that he always seemed lazy to me, like he wasn't putting in any effort and was half-arsing it. He seemed to get blown up really really quickly.

 

I mean I've watched all those early 90s PPVs recently and there's really only 3 stand-out matches there: Windham and Muta vs. 2 Cold Scorpio and Brian Pillman from Starrcade '92 and then Douglas and Steamboat vs. Windham and Pillman from the same show (although he looks out of shape in the second match). Then the match with Arn Anderson at Slamboree '93. In 93, he had a shitty match with Muta (to win NWA title) and then a shitty match with Flair (to lose it).

 

I don't really understand the love. He seems ridiculously overrated.

[Loss]

  JerryvonKramer said:

I don't know, maybe it's because things came so easy to him that he always seemed lazy to me, like he wasn't putting in any effort and was half-arsing it. He seemed to get blown up really really quickly.

Can you name matches where you've seen him get blown up? Windham has quite a few matches that go 20+ and 30+, and he is still contributing positively throughout most of them. I am not saying it hasn't happened, but I don't recall it being a regular or even occasional thing.

 

  Quote

I mean I've watched all those early 90s PPVs recently and there's really only 3 stand-out matches there: Windham and Muta vs. 2 Cold Scorpio and Brian Pillman from Starrcade '92 and then Douglas and Steamboat vs. Windham and Pillman from the same show (although he looks out of shape in the second match). Then the match with Arn Anderson at Slamboree '93. In 93, he had a shitty match with Muta (to win NWA title) and then a shitty match with Flair (to lose it).

 

I don't really understand the love. He seems ridiculously overrated.

What were your thoughts on:

 

* Taped fist match against Pillman at SuperBrawl I?

* SuperBrawl II tag with Dustin against Austin and Zbyszko?

* His performance in both the War Games '91 and '92 matches?

* Tag with Dustin against Rude and Austin at the GAB in '92?

 

Also, I don't think you can totally rank anyone from that time period on their PPV performances. Not that he doesn't have plenty of great ones. I listed the ones I really particularly like, but that doesn't take into account what Windham was doing week to week. He's not a guy who you can list his PPV matches for and make the case. A lot of Windham's best stuff was on TV.

 

As for the Muta and Flair matches:

 

* Muta never had any good matches in the U.S. after his initial run in 1989. He coasted. Blame that on being told to tone down his performance so he didn't upstage everyone, or blame it on Muta being lazy, but Windham having a bad match with him doesn't make him unique at all.

 

* The Flair match is disappointing, but it's not anything anyone ever points to as being good either. Also, keep in mind that Windham messed up his knee in this match and was never the same again.

 

I won't argue that bad Windham matches don't exist. The Doc match at Starrcade '87 is pretty infamous. The '88 run, as well as it's regarded, really only had one standout match (Dusty at Bash '88), and even that isn't really a consensus good match. So there have been some matches that have disappointed. But there aren't many guys who have worked primarily in the U.S. whose best stuff is far and away better than his.

[ohtani's jacket]

Ha, great thread.

 

Jerry Estrada. I could write a whole page about how much I hate Jerry Estrada. There's a number of guys I think are overrated to a certain extent -- Santo, Casas, Panther -- but these things tend to go in cycles. Ten years ago we all thought Jumbo was the greatest worker of all-time and now people want to pick holes in him. How much does that have to do with Jumbo and how much is it people getting bored? If you're looking for more Santo matches like his UWA stuff, you'll end up disappointed and eventually he's not that great anymore. Or you find better guys, like a teenager finding more serious music. Mark Rocco's a guy I used to love until I found there were dozens of better Euro workers. Steve Wright was another. Johnny Saint. Most people are sick of Liger these days, but there's always a chance of coming back round like I did with Misawa. You just need a new take on matches you hadn't seen. Perhaps fickle appreciation is a neat thing about being a wrestling fan and something to embrace. At least it means you can change your mind every ten years.