El-P Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Most of ECW is horrible beyond belief (at least from 1993-1997), so I'm not disagreeing with you there. I never said that most ECW was horrible. I enjoyed the hell out of watching back ECW mostly from 94 to 97 actually, which were the peak years. 99/2000 were the painfull years. What Vince Russo is to booking (a bunch of stuff to distract you from the fact that it's all crap) is what Raven is to wrestling. This makes no sense at all. Russo is about hotshotting stuff and nothing making sense because he hates wrestling and thinks nothing matters at all. There is no thoughts at all beyond "give everyone a gimmick, do swerve and humiliate women". Raven is the exact opposite. Yes, he's all about the dog & pony show and not old-school one on one wrestling, but in his case, it actually works very well, usually makes sense, and he's big on continuity as far as character go. The Raven vs Saturn match from Fall Brawl 1998 is an amazing match, and the runs-in are an integral part of why it's so great. I also happen to think his character is more fun than 90% of any other wrestling character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Raven wasn't really given much of a shot in his last WWF run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Raven wasn't really given much of a shot in his last WWF run. "Who the fuck hired Raven ?" Vince McMahon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 But when we look back at Kane's career, this might not even be in the top five. I'm not a fan of him as a worker, but I am impressed by his ability to remain consistently over despite receiving some of the worst booking imaginable.Yeah. It's pretty hard to think of anyone who's been booked in more absolutely career-wrecking bullshit (yet not had their career wrecked) than Kane. Alvarez actually had an interesting theory about that: perhaps Kane gets stuck with all the goofy storyline ideas which the writers come up with for Undertaker. It's easy to imagine the writers pitching all kinds of weird angles for the dead man, but Taker either turns them down or is on one of his long sabbaticals. So the idea gets passed down to the other big scary magical giant, one who's a go-along-to-get-along type and won't say no: Kane. Last year they were all on Lagana's podcast at IWantWrestling, which he shut down when he got the TNA gig.Aw, I never got around to listening to many of those. Were the podcasts saved or archived anywhere? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovert Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Last year they were all on Lagana's podcast at IWantWrestling, which he shut down when he got the TNA gig.Aw, I never got around to listening to many of those. Were the podcasts saved or archived anywhere? http://iwantwrestling.com/podcasts/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Thanks, sorry, assumed the IWW site had been taken down. I actually have liked a fair amount of the USWO I've seenI wish you could see some of the old local TV we broadcasted on Nashville's biggest cable carrier. We did all kinds of the weirdest, funnest, cheapest kind of goofing-off stuff on that show. We had the weirdest pool of talent, we had a constant stream of TNA workers who wanted to get a quick payday on a Friday night, along with all kinds of good up-and-coming young talents; and also a bunch of Memphis dudes, both Dundees and Wolfie D and Ricky Morton and Bobbie Eaton all hanging around. I was on the show for about five years, but probably have little more left of that footage than a few scattered old Youtube links here and there. I used to have some of it on VHS tapes (yeah, it's been a while) but lost those while moving this one time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 People who chant Cena sucks are just Austin marks who wishes he drank beer and cursed more often. The problem with "Cena sucks" chants is that the people responsible for them suck even worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 It's funny, on the last WOL there was a comment by Dave where he stated he thinks the "We All Hate You" chant was a work. As if somehow WWE thought things out to the point they would put plants in the crowd to get worked chants going on a show that is rewritten several times a week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 Amusing how poor the booking has been in WWE when Kofi Kingston (who's basically been a tag wrestler for the last year or so), The Great Khali (who hasn't really been portrayed as a threat in a while) and Santino Marella (longtime resident comedy character) are all in matches for one of the company's top two titles this weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 I was watching a King Kong Bundy vs Tony Garea match from July 85 on All American Wrestling. Monsoon and Mean Gene are announcing. and Gene says that he just spotted Doctor Harold Duffelmeyer in the crowd, from Columbia University, and that his nickname is the Professor. And Gorilla says he's spotted at a lot of WWF shows. Was this some sort of inside joke? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 I'm not sure Raven is capable of producing anything good without being surrounded by numerous underlings and having his matches filled with weapons and run-ins. I don't think he's capable of working an exciting, 30-minute main event without any extracurricular stuff. Just me. Not many people are capable to work an exciting 30 minute main event period. And I don't think he ever claimed he could (nor anyone else for that matter). I found Raven matches more enjoyable than most stuff on ECW, certainly more enjoyable 15 years later than overrated "technical" demonstrations of Eddie vs Dean, or nonsensical wankery a la RVD, or horrible boring brawls a la Duds. Way more fresh and more fun to watch. Yes there was ton of bullshit, but it was fun bullshit that worked. Just me (litteraly, since I'm probably alone to still enjoy Raven as much as I do). I bet I could name three thousand wrestlers better than Raven. If I was restricting myself to wrestlers just based on 90's work I could hit a thousand. Even if I were to give him extra points for his career - much of which was carried by Stevie and the other underlings - I don't see how he's a top three hundred U.S. talent for the 90's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 Most of ECW is horrible beyond belief (at least from 1993-1997), so I'm not disagreeing with you there. "ECW doesn't age well" is an argument that doesn't age well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 I'm not sure Raven is capable of producing anything good without being surrounded by numerous underlings and having his matches filled with weapons and run-ins. I don't think he's capable of working an exciting, 30-minute main event without any extracurricular stuff. Just me. Not many people are capable to work an exciting 30 minute main event period. And I don't think he ever claimed he could (nor anyone else for that matter). I found Raven matches more enjoyable than most stuff on ECW, certainly more enjoyable 15 years later than overrated "technical" demonstrations of Eddie vs Dean, or nonsensical wankery a la RVD, or horrible boring brawls a la Duds. Way more fresh and more fun to watch. Yes there was ton of bullshit, but it was fun bullshit that worked. Just me (litteraly, since I'm probably alone to still enjoy Raven as much as I do). I bet I could name three thousand wrestlers better than Raven. If I was restricting myself to wrestlers just based on 90's work I could hit a thousand. Even if I were to give him extra points for his career - much of which was carried by Stevie and the other underlings - I don't see how he's a top three hundred U.S. talent for the 90's. I feel like his mic work in memphis in 93 and super fun announcing in GWF would... wait, what's the question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 I'm trolling myself here Matt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 Most of ECW is horrible beyond belief (at least from 1993-1997), so I'm not disagreeing with you there. "ECW doesn't age well" is an argument that doesn't age well 1993, 1995 and 1996 yearbooks have seen me enjoy almost nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 WWECW ages great though! WWECW title is the best WWF TV Title ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 93 is a poor year over all and I won't defend it. 95 and 96 I would rather watch ECW than WCW or WWF though SMW was clearly better. 96 I'd rather watch ECW by a massive margin over the big two and those were not bad years for WCW or the WWF. I think the best matches are just as good as the best matches in the bigger promotions and the week to week tv is more interesting. I could absolutely see why someone wouldn't be an ECW fan, but of the stuff I have heavily indulged in over the last couple of years (AJPW and Texas Sets, Portland and AWA stuff for pending sets, SMW) I enjoyed ECW as much or more than all of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 WWECW ages great though! WWECW title is the best WWF TV Title ever. 08-10 you were pretty much guaranteed a very good match on every show, often times more than one. Probably the most underrated "run" in recent memory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovert Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 Creepy article about another creepy fan: http://www.illegalforeignobject.com/2012/0...r-misunderstood Ah wrestling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 I bet I could name three thousand wrestlers better than Raven. If I was restricting myself to wrestlers just based on 90's work I could hit a thousand. I can say the exact same thing about Spike Dudley. Happy now ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 93 is a poor year over all and I won't defend it. Yep. The beginning is interesting for historical purpose only. Just a glorified indy with a few washed up names from the past. Very few good stuff until mid-94 really, although when Douglas and Sabu show up, it's better on top. One of the big turnaround to me is the Sandman becoming the Sandman, with the infamous "Life's a bitch, then you marry one" promo. Late 94 to early 97 is the peak, and it's an awesomely fun promotion. 95 and 96 I would rather watch ECW than WCW or WWF though SMW was clearly better. 96 I'd rather watch ECW by a massive margin over the big two and those were not bad years for WCW or the WWF. I think the best matches are just as good as the best matches in the bigger promotions and the week to week tv is more interesting. Agreed. I'll get back to you about SMW once I'll have watched the TV. I could absolutely see why someone wouldn't be an ECW fan, Yes, it's definitely an acquired taste, and some stuff is really annoying and reminds an era of stupidity (mindless violence mostly, stuff like Balls Mahoney, New Jack jumping from balcony, terrible brawls, violence against women), but if you like the promotion, there's so much good, and even funny stuff on there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 WWECW ages great though! WWECW title is the best WWF TV Title ever. 08-10 you were pretty much guaranteed a very good match on every show, often times more than one. Probably the most underrated "run" in recent memory. If I ever watch anything from recent history, that would be WWECW, at least to see how it went at first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 93 is a poor year over all and I won't defend it. 95 and 96 I would rather watch ECW than WCW or WWF though SMW was clearly better. 96 I'd rather watch ECW by a massive margin over the big two and those were not bad years for WCW or the WWF. I think the best matches are just as good as the best matches in the bigger promotions and the week to week tv is more interesting. I could absolutely see why someone wouldn't be an ECW fan, but of the stuff I have heavily indulged in over the last couple of years (AJPW and Texas Sets, Portland and AWA stuff for pending sets, SMW) I enjoyed ECW as much or more than all of them. I agree with almost everything here. I was surprised how easy it was to digest the ECW stuff. Going in to the project, I was thinking it would be hard to get through the matches. In the end, the hardest part of the project was deciding what extras to leave on the cutting room floor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 I think my main problems are: * Joey Styles' announcing is too witty and heavy-handed * Most promos go too long * Most matches go too long, considering the limitations of the wrestlers * The crowds are annoying I'm expecting to like 1999+ stuff when it becomes more of a workhorse promotion with guys like Crazy, Taijiri, Kash, etc., but it's really hard to get through the other stuff. There are things I like, like the concept of the Pulp Fiction segments and the Sandman/Mikey feud, but a lot of ECW feels like high school stoners goofing off in front of a camcorder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 I'd be impressed if ANYONE can name 3,000 wrestlers period, let alone better than Raven. THREE THOUSAND Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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