Mad Dog Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 Honestly, I think Warrior was a better promo too. I know it's in fashion to mock his promos but rewatching 1990, his promos are weird and you have to follow them but you understand what he's talking about and he gets the point across. And at least they're fun, HHH puts you to sleep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rainmakerrtv Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 Steve McMichael Mongo wasn't very good, but he might have been okay with time. There were things he did okay in the ring and I think as a heel he understood the basic concepts of what he was supposed to do. HHH was better for a number of reasons, but I don't think Mongo is a bottom of the barrel wrestler for whatever that is worth. Just going to touch on this one aspect, based on some comments from the Arn Anderson shoot. Arn made some statements that would indicate that Mongo wasn't likely to get better even with time, based on a) he was starting out as a rookie very late in life relative to other wrestlers, and b ) a guy with a fair sized bank account going out and wrestling for fun and being paid a lot of money for it will not have the drive or desire to improve the way a young hungry wrestler fighting for his spot would. If Mongo was going to get better with time, he would have. When he stopped appearing in WCW (his contract ran out, he quit, he was fired, whatever, I don't really know), had he truly wanted to become a good wrestler , he could have tried to get a job with Vince or worked dates in the Indys or somehow continued his wrestling career. He did not. The Mongo we saw in WCW was the best Mongo we were going to see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 I thought Mongo's matches were better than they had any right to be. His match with Jarrett was good from what I remember and his match with Hennig was pretty solid too. He also seemed to "get" being a Horsemen. I think he fit in better with the Horsemen than Malenko did and I think if HHH had ever been a Horsemen that he wouldn't have fit in as well as Mongo did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 He was a guy who loved to be there and it showed. Flair loved Mongo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 No, Mongo was not a great wrestler, but he knew how to be a character. I think the Mongo hate that used to be more prevalent on the internet is pretty overblown. It's not like he was AWFUL, and he was a better Horsemen than a guy like Paul Roma or even Malenko who brought no character to his role in the Horsemen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 Add me to the guys who kinda liked Mongo in the Horsemen. He was a 39 old rookie with a battered body being put on TV in competitive matches. I thought he looked ok all things considered in tag matches. I enjoyed his deal with Jarrett quite a bit. And I agree he was a better Horsemen than Malenko, for the reasons already mentionned above. Mongo as a color man during the first months of Nitro was godawful though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Mongo was a pretty bad spot-blower on a fairly frequent basis, though. I've seen him fuck up the simplest things in the most amazing ways. There's a reason why he's a common segment on Botchamania videos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Here are a few: Bob Armstrong Steven Casey/Dane DJ Peterson Ricky Rice Al Madril Buck Robley Mark Starr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Angelo Mosca Jr. Mosca wasn't any good at anything. Lance Von Erich Lance wasn't very good at anything, though fake Von Erich v. fake McMahon is an interesting comparison. Savannah Jack Fuck I don't even remember seeing a Savannah Jack match. Norman The Lunatic Fuck it, I think this is pretty close. Sure Bastion Booger was trash and according to EricR he's a committed racist, but he's a guy who's glimpses from Stampede are a ton of fun. Really athletic for a big guy. I liked the Norman act a lot as a kid and was surprised by how much I thought it worked when I rewatched the WCW stuff a few years back. He probably would have made a better mentally challenged person for HHH to denigrate than Dinsmore and I like Dinsmore. Not sure about this one actually. Jake "The Milkman" Milliman I like Milliman a good bit as far as jobbers go, particularly in tags, but there is not enough substance to merit a case for him. Buck Zumhofe Zumhofe wasn't very good and was lame as shit, sort of like forty year old men coming to the ring to rapcore and pointing to their crotches in a desperate attempt to relive their glory years. Actually that's not really fair as Buck's boombox was more timely, than aforementioned rap core. Buck was able to carry Mr. Electricity Steve Regal to a few above average matches which is something there is zero chance HHH could have ever done as Regal would have laid a trap for him that he would have fallen right into. Buck also had at least one cool match with Billy Robinson and the Heenan feud was really awesome. The thing about the boombox is that it was a heartfelt object that you could buy Buck being crushed about the loss of. It probably costs him a months pay or more and it was the best hope he had to score with one of the rats or look cool for all the young kids in the neighborhood. What did HHH have? A sledgehammer? You can't really do much with that. I guess they could do an angle where The Colons, Hunico and Epico run a train on Stephanie which would feed the racism of Vince and co and is about the same level on the show as Heenan v. Buck in theory (though that was a hot feud that drew money), but who here really believes HHH gives a shit about Stephanie and how would that really hurt Trip? I mean this is the WWE that's a storyline that would probably result in him getting more "cred" with the boys and being pushed as a man of the people, Huey Long type, willing to share the wealth with the peasantry. Absent the equivalent of a boombox, this is closer than it should be. Ron Bass I always liked Bass more than most. Liked the spur angle, liked his NWA run in 85 or 86 or whenever the hell it was. Problem is I can't recall a great deal in the way of matches. I literally can remember more Lee Scott matches than Ron Bass matches. To be fair the majority of HHH matches I recall weren't very good, but still this is a problem for Bass. Firebreaker Chip Someone help me out here, where else did he work and under what gimmick? I know Johnny is an HHH fan and deliberately tossed out the names he thought were most absurd, but I want to be fair here. Rene Goulet Oh I really loved him in that tag from the New Japan Set. He is a guy I could see really enjoying if I went back and watched enough stuff as his whole look and demeanor encompass a lot of the things I like about that era of wrestling. But I have not seen/do not remember enough to definitively place him above HHH. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Chip wrestled for SMW briefly and also worked for the USWA and WWC mostly as the White Knight and U.S. Male. His other ring names are Curtis Thompson, Archangel, the White Knight and U.S. Male. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Goulet vs Bret from 1/85: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jleneY2D64Y No idea why I'm linking it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 The Bass/Tito MSG bout is one of Tito's best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Angelo Mosca Jr. Mosca wasn't any good at anything. Lance Von Erich Lance wasn't very good at anything, though fake Von Erich v. fake McMahon is an interesting comparison. Savannah Jack Fuck I don't even remember seeing a Savannah Jack match. Norman The Lunatic Fuck it, I think this is pretty close. Sure Bastion Booger was trash and according to EricR he's a committed racist, but he's a guy who's glimpses from Stampede are a ton of fun. Really athletic for a big guy. I liked the Norman act a lot as a kid and was surprised by how much I thought it worked when I rewatched the WCW stuff a few years back. He probably would have made a better mentally challenged person for HHH to denigrate than Dinsmore and I like Dinsmore. Not sure about this one actually. Jake "The Milkman" Milliman I like Milliman a good bit as far as jobbers go, particularly in tags, but there is not enough substance to merit a case for him. Buck Zumhofe Zumhofe wasn't very good and was lame as shit, sort of like forty year old men coming to the ring to rapcore and pointing to their crotches in a desperate attempt to relive their glory years. Actually that's not really fair as Buck's boombox was more timely, than aforementioned rap core. Buck was able to carry Mr. Electricity Steve Regal to a few above average matches which is something there is zero chance HHH could have ever done as Regal would have laid a trap for him that he would have fallen right into. Buck also had at least one cool match with Billy Robinson and the Heenan feud was really awesome. The thing about the boombox is that it was a heartfelt object that you could buy Buck being crushed about the loss of. It probably costs him a months pay or more and it was the best hope he had to score with one of the rats or look cool for all the young kids in the neighborhood. What did HHH have? A sledgehammer? You can't really do much with that. I guess they could do an angle where The Colons, Hunico and Epico run a train on Stephanie which would feed the racism of Vince and co and is about the same level on the show as Heenan v. Buck in theory (though that was a hot feud that drew money), but who here really believes HHH gives a shit about Stephanie and how would that really hurt Trip? I mean this is the WWE that's a storyline that would probably result in him getting more "cred" with the boys and being pushed as a man of the people, Huey Long type, willing to share the wealth with the peasantry. Absent the equivalent of a boombox, this is closer than it should be. Ron Bass I always liked Bass more than most. Liked the spur angle, liked his NWA run in 85 or 86 or whenever the hell it was. Problem is I can't recall a great deal in the way of matches. I literally can remember more Lee Scott matches than Ron Bass matches. To be fair the majority of HHH matches I recall weren't very good, but still this is a problem for Bass. Firebreaker Chip Someone help me out here, where else did he work and under what gimmick? I know Johnny is an HHH fan and deliberately tossed out the names he thought were most absurd, but I want to be fair here. Rene Goulet Oh I really loved him in that tag from the New Japan Set. He is a guy I could see really enjoying if I went back and watched enough stuff as his whole look and demeanor encompass a lot of the things I like about that era of wrestling. But I have not seen/do not remember enough to definitively place him above HHH. I'm a HHH fan, but not some wacky "He's awesome and the best ever" guy. I was being silly here with some names but to honest I just wanted to read the inevitable long Buck Zumhofe bit and you didn't dissapoint. (Johnny, looking forward to the AWA set) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cm funk Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 I'm kind of curious what exactly the criteria is here, because it seems to change from person to person to fit Dylan Waco's narrative of HHH being among the abject worst. It's one thing to say, "I'd rather watch this guy than HHH because...." and an entirely different thing to hypothesize that so and so would have been better than HHH if such and such had happened I've been entertained by this thread, but you are really just going out of your way to underrate HHH and overrate a whole mess of dudes. I'd watch a Great Khali match before I'd watch a Giant Baba match, but I won't pretend like Khali is objectively better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSR Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Honestly, I think Warrior was a better promo too. I know it's in fashion to mock his promos but rewatching 1990, his promos are weird and you have to follow them but you understand what he's talking about and he gets the point across. And at least they're fun, HHH puts you to sleep.I don't know about that, I've just watched WWF Superstars from 1991 and felt the Warrior was awful; yes, sometimes he can get the point across if you listen and concentrate carefully, but generally I found that he rambled, was at times incoherent and additionally made no sense, oh, and I hated that snort he did at the end of his promos. Jake Roberts on the other hand is the best promo in the company that year, especially from the moment the heel turn is signalled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 I guess Warrior is ironically seen as a fun promo today, but really, he was just godawful on the mic. A bunch of pseudo-mystical bullshit that made no sense, nonsensical rambling with grunting noises. Not to mention his WCW comeback, when he delivered probably some of the worst ever. The best Warrior matches do beat tha best HHH matches though, without much doubt. And he was colorful and exciting, at least that's how I perceived him when I was a child. HHH would not have excited me at all at the same age, he looks bland as hell. He can thank Mötörhead, because that's the best thing about his character. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Warrior's promos really terrified me as a kid. HHH's promos really put me to sleep as a teen/adult Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 I'm kind of curious what exactly the criteria is here, because it seems to change from person to person to fit Dylan Waco's narrative of HHH being among the abject worst. It's one thing to say, "I'd rather watch this guy than HHH because...." and an entirely different thing to hypothesize that so and so would have been better than HHH if such and such had happened I've been entertained by this thread, but you are really just going out of your way to underrate HHH and overrate a whole mess of dudes. I'd watch a Great Khali match before I'd watch a Giant Baba match, but I won't pretend like Khali is objectively better HHH isn't among the abject worst and that's not my narrative. It is one thing to say I'd rather watch X than HHH and usually when I invoke that it is because I think there is not enough volume to merit saying X is clearly better and to illustrate the fact that I think HHH is boring as piss to the point where even people who may be "inferior" in terms of memorable matches/moments are more entertaining to watch. Rather than tell me that I have underrated HHH and overrated other guys, tell me how I am underrating HHH and whom I am overrating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Santino Marella I actually think Santino - while still very early in his career - is almost certainly better than HHH in the big picture sense, and I think there is a good deal of evidence that he is a better worker within the confines of what he is given. Santino is the most charismatic guy in the entire company, over as fuck with the live crowds and with casual fans and works a comedy gimmick in a way that makes him a lovable underdog people want to see win rather than an annoying nuisance you want to see die. His recent gimmick of "guy who is not really competitive in singles matches, but mysteriously becomes a survivor/force to be reckoned with in multi-man environments" is something that could easily be fucked up and yet he plays it perfectly and is totally believable. Far more believable than angry HHH slobbering around like an epileptic St. Bernard. He has a decent range with his offense as his comedy spots work, he’s gotten over the Cobra as a legit finish, but he also can surprise with more legit looking stuff that gets a reaction. At this point this year he’s probably one of the five best guys in the WWE and you could actually make a case he’s number two and this is the only time he’s ever really been given a chance to do anything. I see no reason why Santino couldn’t work WWE main event style, though I suspect he would be more likely to work out his career as a comedic Ricky Morton type, which frankly – with the right push – could place him well above HHH when all is said and done. Vladimir Kozlov Never really had a chance. I think he had some of the same problems of HHH, though he had mannerisms and body language that I think was more befitting his act. Koz was too loose to work a real “shooter” gimmick and too robotic to work as a real hybrid. He’s another person who I think might have gotten it in a different era, but this wasn’t his era. HHH is better. Kid Kash Oh I think Kash is obviously better, and had he stayed in the WWE – a place that seemed to temper his worst instincts – I think this would be self-evident. As a spot machine, Kash was not upper tier, but was really good and was particularly good in spirited little sprints. He was sort of the ideal Nitro worker, it’s just he wasn’t working on Nitro. I don’t think Kash was that much “worse” than HHH in 2000 which is allegedly the Game’s magnum opus. As a Southern indy/WWE guy he’s been pretty great as the cranky old vet, stiffing dudes and just generally being a douche. Watching SAW I doubt there is a more over the top heel in wrestling when it comes to fucking with live crowds. True HHH has been fucking with live crowds for years via the hypnotic trances his boring matches often leave people in, but that’s not what I meant. Kash as heel ace of SAW was a more compelling heel ace than HHH has ever been. Watching Kash threaten to beat redneck women in the front row of a show sponsored by a bail bondsman > HHH threatening to “end an era” by beating a crippled bald guy. Roderick Strong I don’t think Roddy is very good at this point, but I did like him to a degree several years back. In particular I liked him around the time he popped up in TNA which is….odd. Really this is a choice between whether or not you would rather watch a 20 minute plus masturbatory “classic” built around near falls, chops and backbreaker variations, or a masturbatory “classic” based around ego of a guy who’s career peak consisted of occupying space while Mick Foley dove head first in thumb tacks. I am not sure I have a reasonable answer to this question. Jack Evans I like Evans better because he’s one of the few spot machines that lets the spots speak for themselves and isn’t near fall obsessed, indy “superstar.” He comes across as a guy more interested in doing cool shit than a guy trying to get MOTY accolades from the Figure Four board and I appreciate that. He’s also nearly died multiple times on lunatic bumps, which always wins bonus points from me. HHH is probably more likely to be involved in a match that ebbs and flows with traditional structure which is something I am a fan of, but HHH is not particularly good at being compelling in that setting. I also think Evans would have made a better DX member as his breakdancing around to the entrance song would have had a real Flip Dawg from White Boyz feel that HHH could never hope to replicate. I would take a good rep of a style I don’t like as much than a mediocre rep of a style I like more. Alex Shelley I’m not really a Shelley fan and never have been. I think TJP does the same act better and Shelley strikes me as an obvious over actor in a wrestling universe filled with over actors. For overacted segments involving aging talents, the Papparazi production segments might have been better than HHH bringing Shawn back for Summerfest/Shawn superkicking the little girl. Shelley getting carried by Hero a couple years back was a bigger success than Punk v. HHH but that feels like an unfair comparison. That Shelley v. Lethal match was as bad an indy strokefest match as I’ve ever seen and surely a worse sin than all but the most egregious HHH abortions. It is possible I am missing some good Shelley ROH work in my calculus, but I lean toward HHH. Jimmy Garvin (mostly because I'm curious as to why you think HHH is a poor man's version of him...yeah, Garvin is obviously better, but I don't see the similarities) Garvin is obviously better as you note. Not sure that Garvin is really the best comparison for HHH. My initial thought was “cliché heavy promo guy, with pampered elitist gimmick. Largely known for his association with two females, in which it is generally agreed that the first was more artistically successful, with the second being smarter for long term happiness. Third or four best guy in major stable that has been highly regarded historically. Known for unprofessional behavior, grumpiness when expected to job and help put others over. Reliance on methodical spots/pacing during heel control segments. Remembered fondly for angle where he defended honor of father figure after heinous attack.” I think those comparisons work, but there may be a better comp. Certainly Garvin’s feud with wifebeater trainer was better than HHH’s feud with trainee wifebeater for example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Jimmy Garvin (mostly because I'm curious as to why you think HHH is a poor man's version of him...yeah, Garvin is obviously better, but I don't see the similarities) Garvin is obviously better as you note. Not sure that Garvin is really the best comparison for HHH. My initial thought was “cliché heavy promo guy, with pampered elitist gimmick. Largely known for his association with two females, in which it is generally agreed that the first was more artistically successful, with the second being smarter for long term happiness. Third or four best guy in major stable that has been highly regarded historically. Known for unprofessional behavior, grumpiness when expected to job and help put others over. Reliance on methodical spots/pacing during heel control segments. Remembered fondly for angle where he defended honor of father figure after heinous attack.” I think those comparisons work, but there may be a better comp. Certainly Garvin’s feud with wifebeater trainer was better than HHH’s feud with trainee wifebeater for example. You should quit now. This is the crown jewel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Robbie Eagle/The Stro My memory of Robbie Eagle in letter mans jacket challenging for Beat The Champ is that it was pretty entertaining tv. I never saw the Gorgeous George III gimmick but it sounds bad on paper. Maestro actually could have been a lot of fun as a gimmick but this was WCW. Realistically I don't see anyway you could take Eagle over HHH unless there is a shit ton of quality stuff I'm totally unaware of. Lance Storm HHH is better than Storm. Storm is a workrate wrestler who's spots don't like that impressive or crisp. He has unbelievably bad strikes and is generally the loosest wrestler I've ever seen. It is possible that he added more to the miracle street fight with Dreamer in 99 than HHH did to the Foley street fight in 00, but that is the only area off the top of my head where Storm was better. Well, I guess his parlaying his monotone/boring demeanor into an aspect of his gimmick is better than HHH being monotone and boring while trying to sell it as "cerebral" or "intense." Still, HHH had some offense that you might believe would hurt a premature infant, Storm does not. Devon Storm/Crowbar I always liked Storm as jumpy guy with a mullet in god awful gear thinking he was the coolest guy on Earth and taking crazed splat bumps. I have not seen a Devon Storm v. Ace Darling match in a long time so I have no clue how those hold up. As Crowbar you got the feeling he could have had some good matches with a better set up, but when David Flair is your tag partner what are you going to do? I would be interested to see if HHH could have been effective as a guy getting squashed by jacked up meathead. I don't remember the Warrior squash being nearly as good as Taz killing Storm. I imagine there are some "indy classics" with Storm that would rate with the second tier HHH matches. I guess I should take HHH here, because I don't even think a miracle could result in Storm having a good hour long match, but it feels dirty to pick him in this match up. 911 I never saw anything in 911. He did take a good bump for Taz once and his act of killing guys with chokeslams, was better than burying guys with pedigrees, but by ever reasonable metric HHH was better. The Blue Meanie I will say that Meanie was a much better comedic sidekick for long haired guy with superkick finisher, than HHH was. His team with Nova was surprisingly competent and a large part of that had to do with Meanie who had some really fun "I'm a fat fuck, who's a good athlete, but not THAT good an athlete" spots. HHH's two strengths are bleeding and bumping. He may have been a better bumper than Meanie (though fat guy missing moonsault always has a nice splat sound to it), but no way he was a better bleeder as anyone who ever saw Big Don mafia hit on Meanie can attest to. HHH had better chances and as much as I joke was better equipped to have meaningful matches. But Meanie had more than his fair share of "fun" outings and a much higher percentage of them than HHH did relative to their careers (It is also theoretically possible that Lady Alexandria covering him in whip cream and licking it off is more vile than HHH fucking corpse of Katie Vick though that is neither here nor there). I guess HHH was better...maybe. Iron Sheik HHH never had matches near as good as the Slaughter matches. Crazed, drugged up Sheik is sad, but HHH is a guy who's one advantage over a lot of people he is otherwise worse than is "he's got the epic matches." Well here he can't even win that. Sheik had good offense, the clubs were cool, he was a much better heel, his rambling promos were actually entertaining, et. This isn't a hard one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Savannah Jack Fuck I don't even remember seeing a Savannah Jack match. Not sure HHH has ever had a match as compelling as anything in the Lawler/Snowman series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Savannah Jack was Snowman? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Schneider Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Current Stro as poor mans Bobby Jaggers is awesome Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.