cm funk Posted June 29, 2012 Report Share Posted June 29, 2012 I haven't read the thread and I'm kind of afraid to since I know most people here aren't big fans of his and I'm going to disagree with a lot of the opinions, but Michaels is easily in my top 100, definitely top 50, maybe top 30, maybe top 20 Granted I haven't watched nearly as much puro, lucha or southern territory stuff as a lot of the people who post here, but I've seen enough to form opinions on who and what is good, and Michaels from like 87-97 was really f'n good. I value character stuff and promos at more or less the same level as ringwork to a degree, and I think heel HBK in the 90's was one of the best characters ever. And, for my money, he's one of the most entertaining bumpers ever. Lots of people overanalyze selling IMO, and great selling of a limb or injury is great don't get me wrong, but to me the visceral reaction of seeing someone take the kind of bumps Michaels would take is just as important. I'm also of the school of thought that, "if you can get the crowd to react and you get things over, you're doing good work". Michaels is not technically perfect (and is actually really overrated as a technical worker, he was always best at fast paced or brawl style matches), but he almost always got the crowd into his matches somehow. regarding his comeback and second run with the company, I marked out for the SummerSlam match with Hunter big time because I had been a huge Michaels fan and never expected to see him wrestling again by that point, but on repeat it was pretty bad. I thought Michaels was hit and miss the first few years back, and I really, really, really hated his never-ending series of matches with HHH. mid 03-05 I got really bored of Michaels' act, but he definitely had his positive moments. One that sticks out in my mind is the Bischoff v. Austin Survivor Series match where I thought his character and booking and work were just perfect. I think he really started to turn around in my eyes with the DX comeback, the feud with Vince and the matches with Cena though. I'm not sure what it was, but something seemed to change in the way he worked and the way he characterized himself, and he started coming off as more authentic and realistic. Maybe that was when he finally started to own the grizzled veteran who's been around every block a hundred times kind of role that he settled into. The feud with Jericho was probably his all-around peak IMO, and obviously the matches with Undertaker were classics (and there was even some really great stuff between them before that with the two of them in the Rumble and the Michaels/Cena v. Taker/Batista tag). Heck, he even got me interested in one of the dumbest programs ever with JBL. Even if you don't like his ringwork due to whatever quirks he has, you have to admit the guy was a good worker who was able to get almost any crowd eating out of the palm of his hand. Overall I think the 02-10 run was a success, the good definitely outweighed the bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted June 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 29, 2012 This is an aside, but I think you really hurt your cause when discussing someone like Shawn and using Dustin Rhodes as your comparison. It's been the "cute" thing to do for a long time in these circles, but it is a bad approach for any attempt to substantively discuss Michaels or reevaluate his place in history. I understand the shock value of it. But when you use someone who wasn't especially well received at the time (or historically) by most fans, the strong points you make are lost. When you are preaching to the choir it may work. It doesn't work for any kind of discussion with anyone outside this narrow circle. It wasn't done for shock value, he was actually better received at the time than is often thought as has been covered here before, and I didn't reference Dustin for the purposes of direct comparison but rather to point out that he was a guy I think highly of on comparative terms to the standard some believe makes Shawn an all timer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted June 29, 2012 Report Share Posted June 29, 2012 Only works for one who doesn't like a number of Tito's matches. I like me some Tito matches. I like a number of Tito's matches. His career was a disappointment in terms of matches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted June 29, 2012 Report Share Posted June 29, 2012 Only works for one who doesn't like a number of Tito's matches. I like me some Tito matches. I like a number of Tito's matches. His career was a disappointment in terms of matches. And we disagree on that. Suspect we'd find other people that fall on both sides of that point of view. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted June 29, 2012 Report Share Posted June 29, 2012 Considering how weakly he was pushed after he lost the IC title, and the fact he pretty much only worked in New York which was the least work-friendly promotion of all, I think the number of really good Tito matches is pretty decent all things considered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 A couple of notes... Most wrestling fans aren't going to take Goldust seriously as a wrestler because they are too hung up on the gay gimmick. No one watching WWF casually in those years was critiquing matches. They were critiquing his lifestyle. Nerds like us critique the matches. Using Dustin as a comparison to Shawn is completely valid. As far as worrying about making an argument to people outside of the board? That isn't the point and would be a wasted effort. The point is to make arguments to other members of PWO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 I think it would be interesting to break HBK's career down by period. Individually, I think he is hurt by poor matches, attitude, etc. As a collective whole, I can see why people love the guy. Midnight Rockers run - 1986-1992 Boy Toy - 1992 - 1995 Boyhood Dream - 1995 - 1997 DX - 1997 - 1998 Comeback - 2002 - 2010 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khawk20 Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 I think it would be interesting to break HBK's career down by period. Individually, I think he is hurt by poor matches, attitude, etc. As a collective whole, I can see why people love the guy. Midnight Rockers run - 1986-1992 Boy Toy - 1992 - 1995 Boyhood Dream - 1995 - 1997 DX - 1997 - 1998 Comeback - 2002 - 2010 There was also his Texas All-Star run, which preceded the AWA as I recall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted June 30, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 That is an interesting way of breaking it down. To me I think his tag work was really great from 86-88. No doubt he was an excellent wrestler in that era and I have no problem saying he looked like an heir apparent to Ricky Morton. The Rockers are probably my favorite WWF tag team of all time also, but that is really not saying much as I'm not high on the WWF tag division and I think they were just the most exciting/fun to watch unit. The initial heel turn I think is actually really disappointing in terms of in ring work, though I liked the character then and imagine I still would now. A part of me thinks it's wrong to even include 94 in his "prime." I was talking to my brother on the phone the other day about the 94 yearbook. He's more pro-Shawn than I am, but when he ran down a list of guys he barely had Shawn inside a top forty for that year through Sept. I'm not saying others would agree with all of his picks, but if it weren't for the Ladder Match I don't think anyone would feel obligated to even mention that as a "prime" year for him. To me his prime was really the early tag run, but his singles prime was 95-97 (I would be more inclined to say just 95 and 96, but there are things in 97 people like a lot). Again I get why people like it, and I get why people like it more than me. But I still don't think of it is as a uniquely glorious run unparalleled in the history of wrestling, nor do I see it as anything particularly close to that. One day I'll get around to watching a lot of 00's WWE tv again. Maybe Michaels will come across better on the second sitting than he did in real time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 I think it would be interesting to break HBK's career down by period. Individually, I think he is hurt by poor matches, attitude, etc. As a collective whole, I can see why people love the guy. Midnight Rockers run - 1986-1992 Boy Toy - 1992 - 1995 Boyhood Dream - 1995 - 1997 DX - 1997 - 1998 Comeback - 2002 - 2010 There was also his Texas All-Star run, which preceded the AWA as I recall. I wasn't including his jobber run. He was also in Mid South. As for the breakdown, I was thinking more about position on the card and perception of Shawn. Clearly just a tag wrestler in the Rockers run. After that, he was at the IC level but not a serious contender to break through to the upper reaches even when he was performing in the ladder matches. In 1995, yo ucould see they werre positioning him for the main event run and the World title. In 1997, afte rlosing his smile, the feud with Bret, the perception even among regular fans was this guy was a smug prick. I don't think it's a unique or interesting way to break it down. Seems pretty obvious to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cm funk Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 94 was a weird year because he didn't wrestle a whole lot. Breaks before and after WM, and he was in a manager role for Diesel, host of the Heartbreak Hotel, and did some commentary. Then he mostly wrestled tags with Diesel. It was a great year for him character wise though, even when he wasn't wrestling he was one of the best characters on WWF tv. 95-96 is definitely his peak as a singles wrestler, but I thought he was good in 93 and really good in 97/98 when he was around. 92 he didn't light the world on fire with his work, but it was basically a transition/development year for the HBK character and for his singles work. He really hit his stride in 93. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSR Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 Expanding to international guys: Guys I would definitely rate ahead of Shawn Jim Breaks Johnny Saint Marty Jones Just out of interest, how much European footage have you watched? Have you seen much Steve Grey, Clive Myers, Mike Jordan, Johnny Kidd? or how about the guys who there doesn't appear to be that much footage of such as Jon Cortez, Alan Sarjeant, Ken Joyce etc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 Dunno that I'd put Saint ahead of Michaels and Marty Jones' stock has dropped a bit for me lately after watching some of the non-TWC World of Sport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 Midnight Rockers run - 1986-1992 Not familiar with the AWA work aside of the usual suspects with Summer/Rose. Shawn was a great babyface tag worker in the WWF. Boy Toy - 1992 - 1995 Interesting character wise, was still searching himself in the ring quite a bit in 1992. Already a few great matches though (the two ladder matches, Jarrett) Boyhood Dream - 1995 - 1997 Was beginning to be annoying as a character especially when he became the WWF champ, hit his stride as a worker but didn't had that many *great* matches either. The Nash IYH match and the Foley one. DX - 1997 - 1998 To me this is his peak as a character. Just a heat magnet, immature prick you just want to slap the fuck out of. In term of work he was beginning to break down because of injuries in early 98, but the Taker HITC match remains a great performance. My favourite Shawn period. Comeback - 2002 - 2010 Have seen quite a bit of his big matches, some are really good (Jericho), some are really bad (HHH), some are really annoying (Hogan, Flair). Hurt by the self-conscious epic/Kurt Angle style mentality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 I've said this before, but for me DX is the most embarrassing thing in the history of wrestling. I can barely watch DX footage, just makes me cringe -- at David Brent in The Office levels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted June 30, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 Expanding to international guys: Guys I would definitely rate ahead of Shawn Jim Breaks Johnny Saint Marty Jones Just out of interest, how much European footage have you watched? Have you seen much Steve Grey, Clive Myers, Mike Jordan, Johnny Kidd? or how about the guys who there doesn't appear to be that much footage of such as Jon Cortez, Alan Sarjeant, Ken Joyce etc? I've seen more Euro footage than most (I would guess), but less than enough to be anything near an "expert." I like Johnny Kidd a lot, but really haven't seen that much of him. I've seen more Myers and Grey, but I was never as high on them as others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 Clearly just a tag wrestler in the Rockers run. There are a FEW singles matches in 91 that made tape. There's the 3/15/91 Kato MSG match (aired 3/26/91 PTW), the 3/17/91 PTW Mr. Perfect Match, the 12/16/91 Flair PTW match, a 1/29/91 Crush match that made a CV release. And of course, the Dibiase match in 90. I swear there was a Roma match too but that could be Jannetty. To me, the most interesting 92 Michaels match is the Snuka one from MSG (1/31/92). Not the best but the most interesting. Everyone should watch that. It's very early in the heel run and VERY late in Snuka's run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 I wasn't trying to imply he never had singles matches. I was just pointing out his position on the card. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted July 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 Side question - if people were doing a Michaels top ten what would they have on it? I think I'd have at least three Rockers v. Rose/Somers matches. Maybe four. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exposer Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 Shawn Michaels Top Ten Matches (In No Particular Order) Blood On The Sand Razor Ladder Match SS 95 Mind Games Brawl In St. Paul Jarrett IYH 95 Taker Mania 25 Cena Mania 23 Razor Ladder Match Mania X Cena Raw London 87 Title Switch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 Here's what I'd say, in chronological order: Rockers vs. Orient Express, 91 Rumble WMX ladder match Kliq tag, Action Zone vs. Jarrett, IYH 2 vs. Diesel, GFBE vs. Mankind, Mind Games vs. Taker, HIAC vs. Cena, WM23 vs. Cena, 4/23/07 Raw vs. Taker, WM25 Note that I've seen next to no Rockers in the AWA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exposer Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 Funny enough, I actually think Blood On The Sand is Shawn's greatest match ever. I know I didn't imply that in my earlier post but it was too difficult to arrange the other matches in a quick enough time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 What is Blood on the Sand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 I think he means that Triple H match from Tribute To The Troops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 What Triple H match from Tribute to the Troops? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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