MikeCampbell Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 Personally I don't want my wrestler's humanized. real human beings are inherently boring. I want them larger than life, and bullet proof. I watch wrestling to escape real life, not to be re-immersed in it. I agree to a point, but, you need the occasional "every man" sort of character. I think that's a large part of what made CM Punk so popular. He wasn't some legit tough guy who could fuck you up, like Regal or Finlay. He wasn't some juiced up musclehead. He was just a regular guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 I'd say it was mainly due to them wanting him to be the next Hispanic superstar, then booking him the exact opposite way a Hispanic star should be. How should a Hispanic star be booked? Serious question because we discussed this very topic on a soon to be released podcast of Booking the WWE. I still want you to answer this question. Honestly I always think how Loss once talked about how refreshing it would be if a wrestler could be gay without it being part of his gimmick, and think that could apply to Black/Hispanic wrestlers. Why couldn't Alberto be pushed like any strong heel, just one who happened to be Mexican? No Speedy Gonzales style exaggerated accents, no one beating it down your throats that he's MEXICO'S GREATEST EXPORT, MAGGLE! It also doesn't help the writers seem to have no idea how to write for a Hispanic character despite them insisting that's the core of his gimmick. Agreed with everything up until that last sentence which you kind of forces me to ask the same question again. I'm not sure what you're expecting me to say. As far as I know, the only non white guy on the writing team is Dave Kapoor, My thing is if they insist on making his ethnicity part of his gimmick, the people writing for him should have some idea what would appeal to a Hispanic audience. Rey wasn't a megastar to the Hispanic audience because they pushed it down people's throats, it was because he was this cool little dude who did all kinds of crazy moves and found a way to beat guys twice his size. Yeah, he'd bust out Aztec themed gear for big events sometimes, but being Mexican was never the main focus. Same thing with Eddie, he got way more over when they dialed back the LATINO HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAT stuff and focused more on him being a great wrestler. Whenever he was doing the over the top stereotypical stuff he always did in in a winking fashion like he realized this was silly but at least he was in on the joke. Alberto as a babyface came off way too much as "this is what white people think latinos would cheer for" . tl;dr version: what fakeplastictrees said I was semi-trolling you. I just wanted your 1st response to end with the paragraph of your 2nd response and not the last sentence in the 1st statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 Speaking of which...when is WWE going to do a legit gay/lesbian romance angle. I'm not talking about a Billy & Chuck swerve. I mean a legit romance angle. To forward thinking? WWE has 3 exclusive Network only shows, why not get Darren Young and someone else together and run with it for 3 months and see what happens. Worse case scenerio is it doesn't get over with the fans, WWE gets praised in the mainstream media for being progressive, and WWE quitely cancels the angle that the majority of the fans will never have seen anyways. I just don't think their current staff has any idea how to write something like that without it being totally over-the-top. In an idealistic world, I agree with FPT. In the real world that Vince McMahon lives in, it would be an embarrassment and give wrestling a worse black eye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummer Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 this ADR story is going to be huge and WWE deserves every bit of criticism it receives here. The web guy that made that comment absolutely deserves to be fired Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 Aren't the basics of what makes a great babyface pretty much ethnicity neutral? Like Bruno Sammartino ? Or Pedro Morales ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButchReedMark Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 I'd say that good selling, fiery come backs, and charisma in your work doesn't depend on ethnicity. The basics apply to all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 You don't think Sammartino's and Morales ethinicty mattered in the North-East market in the 60's ? Not to say it works the same way today, but not to have a latino superstar on your roster seems amazingly tone-deaf in 2014. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButchReedMark Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 No, it mattered. I didn't say it didn't. Just that the basics of being a good babyface don't hinge on ethnicity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slasher Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 It hinges on connection. You don't have to have ethnic undertones or overtones to your character to get over but there has to be something there that makes people go "That's my guy in there". For such a long time ethnic identity WAS the natural way to get that connection. The Sammartino and Morales examples up there, but you also had Junkyard Dog and Jim Duggan in Mid South playing men of the people and in Duggan's case later on, country. You had Dusty Rhodes doing the American Dream schtick. Even Hulk Hogan was rooted in the hyper patriotism of the Cold War 1980s America. I mean really, you don't see this? How about Bret Hart as the Canadian hero who was the defender of all that is decent? It was the Attitude Era that kind of tapped in a different way of finding that connection with Steve Austin, Mankind and The Rock. But before that? Yeah Ethnicity played a big part of the game. Nowadays I think it is silly to dust off old stereotypes and put them out there but there is definitely room for an updated model of the ethnic heroes. ADR's wasn't it though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steenalized Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 this ADR story is going to be huge and WWE deserves every bit of criticism it receives here. The web guy that made that comment absolutely deserves to be fired From the sound of it, yeah, but you can't exactly keep ADR around if he made things physical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoo Enthusiast Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 (edited) this ADR story is going to be huge and WWE deserves every bit of criticism it receives here. The web guy that made that comment absolutely deserves to be fired Huge how? Has it even escaped the bubble yet? Edited August 9, 2014 by Zoo Enthusiast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummer Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 huge if TMZ or something of that ilk picks it up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidebottom Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 No, it mattered. I didn't say it didn't. Just that the basics of being a good babyface don't hinge on ethnicity. In a realistic world it does. El-P was spot on the money with Sammartino and Morales, and I'd throw in JYD as an equally strong example. Granted this was all a long time ago relatively speaking, but society still has deep rooted links to this attitude / celebration of race and culture. There's also a logical argument to be linked with why people from a particular country cheer their home country star, irrespective of talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoo Enthusiast Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 huge if TMZ or something of that ilk picks it up Would think it would be a story for an hour or something if they did pick it up. Can't imagine this breaking mainstream. Hell, the Darren Young story (which "broke" on TMZ after WWE fed them it) was bigger, and that was a non-story after a day or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMJ Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 Heel or face, ADR's gimmick was uninspired. JBL updated the Million Dollar Man gimmick by bringing in the over-the-top entrance and giving it a "Southern Business Man" twist that brought the "Cocky Rich Guy" gimmick a flavor that had not yet been done before. It was an obvious callback to a classic heel, but there was enough freshness to it that it got over. What did Creative or Del Rio bring to the gimmick that JBL or DiBiase didn't? A different car? An announcer (doing the same schtick that Armando Estrada did better for Umaga or Sharmell did for King Booker) instead of a Virgil? A scarf instead of a cowboy hat or Million Dollar Belt? DiBiase's greed inspired many of his feuds and storylines (buying the title instead of winning it fairly, treating Virgil like shit, trying to come between Dusty and Dustin, etc.). JBL's wealth and borderline racist taunts against Eddie Guerrero and later Rey Mysterio made things personal in his feuds. But how did Del Rio's gimmick or even the idea of his "Destiny" play into his feuds with Edge? With Christian? With Cena? With Punk? With Big Show? Heel or face, unrealistic portrayal of Latinos or not, Del Rio's character lacked any teeth, whitebread masquerading as pumpernickel, completely devoid of any meaningful trajectory. Del Rio was failed by the writing team just as much as his "inability to connect with the audience." Someone wrote they believed Del RIo was "just an entrance" - unfortunately, when that entrance had been done to death already, he wasn't even that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovert Posted August 10, 2014 Report Share Posted August 10, 2014 Washington Post picked up on the ADR firing story: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/early-lead/wp/2014/08/09/wwe-fires-superstar-alberto-del-rio-for-reportedly-slapping-employee-who-allegedly-told-a-racist-joke/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted August 10, 2014 Report Share Posted August 10, 2014 Gotta love the WWE's "answer" on Twitter : "There’s no excuse for a pro athlete not to conduct themselves in a professional manner." Nor for bad grammar I guess. The whole thing is pretty embarrassing. BTW, is Micheael Hayes still employed ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummer Posted August 10, 2014 Report Share Posted August 10, 2014 PWI says Steph and Brie have been training hard for Summerslam and the plan is to have the best match possible. Meltz says the match is currently scheduled for 15 minutes. Brock/Cena for 25 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted August 10, 2014 Report Share Posted August 10, 2014 Wow I hope that 15 includes entrances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted August 10, 2014 Report Share Posted August 10, 2014 No, all of the times we have right now are bell to bell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moazzam23 Posted August 10, 2014 Report Share Posted August 10, 2014 Are these the times you have Bix? Bell to bell times for SummerSlam as of right now: Cena vs. Lesnar = 25 minutes; Brie vs. Stephanie = 15 minutes (both have been training hard with the goal of having a good match); Reigns vs. Orton = 20 minutes (what the hell?!?!); Ambrose vs. Rollins = 15 minutes; A.J. vs. Paige = 12 minutes; Rusev vs. Swagger = 12 minutes; Jericho vs. Wyatt = 15 minutes; and Ziggler vs. Miz = 10 minutes. That's how the show is laid out, too, albeit in reverse order, obviously. That's 124 minutes on a 3 hour show. Sounds highly unlikely to me unless Ziggler/Miz or AJ/Paige gets bumped to pre-show. And even then it's a lot more than what they usually do on PPVs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superstar Sleeze Posted August 10, 2014 Report Share Posted August 10, 2014 Cesaro's been a dead man walking ever since Sheamus gave him a clown nose at Payback by insta-winning immediately after the Giant Swing. There was a fair amount of pushback here at the time, but I think you can trace a very noticeable decline in the crowd reaction to him after Payback, especially once he dropped the Swing altogether. They're going to have to rebuild him whenever (if?) they decide, in their infinite wisdom, to finally get behind him for real. I shit on that finisher at the time, going against the tide of the majority of this board. Glad to see someone else finally point out what was always obvious to me. It was a horrendous finish that unintentionally (?) buried the fuck out of Cesaro. I don't think that alone is responsible for his recent decline, but it sure as hell didn't help. What?!?!?! The Payback finish was easily the best finish of the year in terms of perfect comeuppance with my only complaint being that it was not on a bigger show. The Giant Swing is a hot dog movement. Cesaro is a cocky strongman who decided to show off rather than finish off his opponent with a real move. BOOM! Sheamus made him pay. That is classic example of the hero making a villain pay for his hubris. I have no idea how that finish "buried the fuck out of" Cesaro. He lost a big match by getting cocky. It has happened to millions of heels that did fine afterwards. It is all how you present the aftermath and it was the aftermath that fucked Cesaro because they decided to do nothing with him because God Forbid the WWE have more than 2-3 storylines a month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovert Posted August 10, 2014 Report Share Posted August 10, 2014 Meltz says the match is currently scheduled for 15 minutes. Brock/Cena for 25 No he didn't it was in F4Weekly so it was Bryan and/or Bix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted August 10, 2014 Report Share Posted August 10, 2014 Meltz says the match is currently scheduled for 15 minutes. Brock/Cena for 25 No he didn't it was in F4Weekly so it was Bryan and/or Bix. WWE Notes by David Bixenspan (@davidbix) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petey Posted August 10, 2014 Report Share Posted August 10, 2014 Brie vs. Stephanie = 15 minutes (both have been training hard with the goal of having a good match) I think the storyline has been real good (Steph is just tremendous), but I find it lulzy that they've been training hard with the goal of having a good match as opposed to training hard with the goal of having a crap match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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