Coffey Posted June 5, 2014 Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 I think in hindsight that The Undertaker turned out pretty well. Do we really want to go with Berserker in that spot & hope things work out as well? The Undertaker is going to go down as one of the best ever in WWE history. More than 20 years of work. I'll admit though, Nord had a great look. The Berserker gimmick was a shame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteF3 Posted June 5, 2014 Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 This is my answer and I'm sticking with it: John Nord. He was a top 3 bumper in WWF in 1991 ... He was very good at giving his opponent a lot to make them good. These frankly sound like cons rather than pros when evaluating WWF monster heels. Did Undertaker get over by giving a lot to his opponent and making them look good, or did he get over because he was perceived as unstoppable? Did Sid? Berzerker's way may have made for more aesthetically pleasing matches to us (though I'd love to see a Berzerker match as good as UT/Warrior or UT/Bret from MSG) but it wasn't really, as Parv put it, the "WWF way." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted June 5, 2014 Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 This is my answer and I'm sticking with it: John Nord. He was a top 3 bumper in WWF in 1991 ... He was very good at giving his opponent a lot to make them good. These frankly sound like cons rather than pros when evaluating WWF monster heels. Did Undertaker get over by giving a lot to his opponent and making them look good, or did he get over because he was perceived as unstoppable? Did Sid? Berzerker's way may have made for more aesthetically pleasing matches to us (though I'd love to see a Berzerker match as good as UT/Warrior or UT/Bret from MSG) but it wasn't really, as Parv put it, the "WWF way." This is fair. My counter was that Hogan would then be open to working with him if he thought he'd make him look good. I generally think that the size/look counters most of the rest. They used him as Undertaker's first real program as a babyface after the aborted Jake stuff. I was curious to see if that was main eventing the B show, but it wasn't. It was #2 on the card after Savage vs Flair on the A show (though I'll let Parv argue that Money Inc vs the Disasters was #2 on those shows). They had Warrior vs Shango and Hart vs Michaels on the B shows. I don't want to go down this road or else Shango suddenly becomes the #2 heel in the company after Flair and that's just a weird thought. I actually think it's fair to say that Money Inc was the #2 heel act in the company between Mania and Summerslam in 1992, which is something no one ever really thinks about. But yeah. Size. Look. Would make Hogan look better than Taker or Sid would. Has the MN connection with Flair. Viable big man WWF top heel vs Hogan in 1991. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteF3 Posted June 5, 2014 Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 What hurt Nord was the WWF going to mostly uniform house shows, as opposed to '84 through roughly the end of '87 when things were haphazard and booked for specific markets. Hogan could work a Philly series with Kamala while working an LA series with Orndorff, with a one-off Boston match against Rick Rude, etc. and work his way through almost all of the singles heels on the roster from Andre down to Hercules and Reed. Plus SNME often seemed tailor-made for Hogan to face random weirdos like Sika, Honky Tonk Man, etc. who would never get a proper house show "run" at the champ. In '91, the only "random" opponent he had was a quickie fall series with the Warlord because of a lack of options. Had the mid-'80s booking philosophy held (and it's totally understandable why it didn't) we could have seen one-offs between Hogan and Berzerker, Hogan and the Mountie, etc. I think that's the best case scenario, a monster for Hogan to slay as contrast to the real monsters like UT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted June 5, 2014 Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 Now I badly want to see a Hogan vs Mountie match (I know they had the Montreal match later on but that's not the same). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteF3 Posted June 5, 2014 Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 Complete with Mountie zapping Hogan on a for-the-local-market-only Funeral Parlor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted June 5, 2014 Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 That's what I want them to do today! It would break-up a lot of the problems I have with RAW: which is where it feels like not only have I seen everything but seen them all a bunch of times. I get tired of feuds never ending & matches being just recycled over-and-over by slapping some new bullshit stipulation on the match. It would be fun to see different matches with different people from different areas of the pecking order. Much like Hogan Vs. Mountie would be awesome, I would like to see TV matches with, let's use Orton as champ for an example: Fandango, Santino, Brodus Clay (who's not even any good), random Diego, Heath Slater...whatever. Even if Orton wins every single match clean in the middle with the RKO, give those other guys something in an 8-10 minute match & at least it's something new & fresh. That's why I used to love the WCW Battlebowl so much. It was just different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted June 5, 2014 Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 I honestly think that's what they should have done with Bryan, or what they should do with Barrett or Sheamus. Sort of a fighting champion gimmick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SomethingSavage Posted June 5, 2014 Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 To be fair, they DID go that route with heel Authority lackey Orton last fall... for a grand total of about one month. He faced like Cody, Goldust, Miz, Sheamus, and a bunch of random babyfaces on every single episode of TV for those first four weeks or so. And then endless Bryan and Big Show matches afterwards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 5, 2014 Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 Two more picks for this thread: Luger in 1990 - WCW went with Sting, they should have gone with Luger. Better look, better worker, better on the mic. In my watching Luger has dicked all over Sting from 88 to 91 so far. Hogan in 1981 WWF - Backlund was still champ and no matter how much we might like some of his matches, he was dogshit boring on the mic. Hogan was right there and getting more and more charismatic. Still a heel but he could have been a bigger star than he was if promoted the right way. Vince Sr was wedded to his generic booking formula so the WWF didn't really have any fixed "top heel" at the time, it's come in 3 shots with the champ and out. Hogan, though, also worked a program with Andre and stuck around quite a long time compared to some other heels. They could have held onto him. Everyone talks about Verne losing Hogan to Vince Jr., but what about Vince Sr losing Hogan to Verne? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted June 5, 2014 Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 Luger in 1990 - WCW went with Sting, they should have gone with Luger. Better look, better worker, better on the mic. In my watching Luger has dicked all over Sting from 88 to 91 so far. Yes. Not to mention, better draw too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chief Posted June 5, 2014 Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 Luger in 1990 - WCW went with Sting, they should have gone with Luger. Better look, better worker, better on the mic. In my watching Luger has dicked all over Sting from 88 to 91 so far. Yes. Not to mention, better draw too. It's funny because if you travel out into the "regular" wrestling internet, most fans would immediately laugh at this and say Sting was better in every way because that is how they've been conditioned to think. Despite overwhelming evidence that Luger was much better in a lot of areas in a lot of timeframes. That's what's so cool about PWO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyonthewall2983 Posted June 5, 2014 Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 Hogan had a TV match with Typhoon late in '91 as well. The announcers never mentioned Tugboat and the prior angle. Wasn't the Berzerker gimmick originally intended for Brody and Nord as a tag team? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillThompson Posted June 5, 2014 Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 Luger in 1990 - WCW went with Sting, they should have gone with Luger. Better look, better worker, better on the mic. In my watching Luger has dicked all over Sting from 88 to 91 so far. Yes. Not to mention, better draw too. Drawing power aside, that's an element of wrestling that doesn't interest me, my recent journey through late 80s NWA into early 90s WCW led me to a different conclusion. I definitely appreciate Luger and find him to be a really good worker in that time frame. However, my opinion of Sting has been raised a lot during this rewatch. He knew how to capture the crowd and make them care, he was a really good worker (I'd say that he and Luger were on about equal footing in this area during these years) and he was a great babyface in peril. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 5, 2014 Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 Wasn't the Berzerker gimmick originally intended for Brody and Nord as a tag team? They were planning that as far back as 1988? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyonthewall2983 Posted June 5, 2014 Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 I heard somewhere that before his death Brody was talking about Vince wanting him to come up and work an angle with Hogan, and that would be his gimmick. It would also be his "one last job" because he'd take the big checks and finally retire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteF3 Posted June 5, 2014 Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 Wasn't the Berzerker gimmick originally intended for Brody and Nord as a tag team? They were planning that as far back as 1988? Nord claims that he and Brody were going to come in feud with Demolition before Brody would move on to a program with Hogan. Take that however you want--I don't really buy it. I can buy that Brody would do a house show run with Hogan and make some final bank, though I don't think it'd ever headline a WrestleMania or anything. I doubt they'd get viking gimmicks or that Brody would go for that, but it wouldn't be the first time the WWF sat on a gimmick idea for multiple years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyonthewall2983 Posted June 5, 2014 Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 This must have been before they had hired The Powers of Pain, who had a somewhat similar gimmick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funkdoc Posted June 5, 2014 Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 you know who i'm really glad HASN'T been mentioned in this thread? one of the main guys who tends to pop up in this discussion with smarks... early 90s scott steiner thank you, everyone, and god bless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victory Posted June 5, 2014 Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 Wasn't the Berzerker gimmick originally intended for Brody and Nord as a tag team?They were planning that as far back as 1988? Nord claims that he and Brody were going to come in feud with Demolition before Brody would move on to a program with Hogan. Take that however you want--I don't really buy it. I can buy that Brody would do a house show run with Hogan and make some final bank, though I don't think it'd ever headline a WrestleMania or anything. I doubt they'd get viking gimmicks or that Brody would go for that, but it wouldn't be the first time the WWF sat on a gimmick idea for multiple years. Yeah I'm not sure I believe Nord either. If Brody did come in I always assumed his run would have been similar to the one Killer Khan had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrainfollower Posted June 5, 2014 Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 I had heard Nord once claim that the Taker gimmick was for either him or Mark and Mark got it, the Berzerker being the consolation prize. You look at top WWF heels at that time, very few of them were giants who couldn't talk. Earlier with Andre and Kamala yes, but by the 90's you had Savage, Dibiase, Rude, Perfect and Flair as top heels. Earthquake was an okay promo and that was a short run and Sid could talk. UT was an exception and that's pretty much the perfect blend of gimmick and guy ever. I do agree Berzerker is criminally underrated but I cannot see John Nord with Bobby Heenan being the top thing in 91. UT really wasn't booked as the top heel ever, first it was Slaughter, then Flair who got the programs with Hogan (Taker never did except a one off and a few tags), As far as Bruiser Brody goes, I doubt Vince would care in the slightest about creating a better Bruiser. Brody was dead and buried and irrelevant which the Roadies weren't when the Demos were created. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted June 5, 2014 Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 That's what I want them to do today! It would break-up a lot of the problems I have with RAW: which is where it feels like not only have I seen everything but seen them all a bunch of times. I get tired of feuds never ending & matches being just recycled over-and-over by slapping some new bullshit stipulation on the match. It would be fun to see different matches with different people from different areas of the pecking order. Much like Hogan Vs. Mountie would be awesome, I would like to see TV matches with, let's use Orton as champ for an example: Fandango, Santino, Brodus Clay (who's not even any good), random Diego, Heath Slater...whatever. Even if Orton wins every single match clean in the middle with the RKO, give those other guys something in an 8-10 minute match & at least it's something new & fresh. That's why I used to love the WCW Battlebowl so much. It was just different. I really feel like Daniel Bryan vs Heath Slater as the ultimate deck-stacking match would be awesome on Raw. Overbooked to death with tons of interference and the goal to get the crowd to bite on ONE nearfall thinking Heath Slater is about to be world champion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tholzerman Posted June 5, 2014 Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 Ha ha. It doesn't really change much though, it's a ridiculous suggestion. The most Bezerker might have done is headline an MSG house show with Hogan or something like that, but top heel for the promotion? Yeah, let's go with Doink as company ace while we're at it. Doink as a top heel would have been money in WWE. Matt Borne could work, and that character was so innovative and creepy. They pulled the trigger on a face turn for him way too early. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyonthewall2983 Posted June 6, 2014 Report Share Posted June 6, 2014 A heel Doink/Undertaker program would have been money. It's Batman and The Joker. The evil antics versus the other-worldly character would have been a perfect fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Guitar Posted June 6, 2014 Report Share Posted June 6, 2014 Hogan in 1981 WWF - Backlund was still champ and no matter how much we might like some of his matches, he was dogshit boring on the mic. Hogan was right there and getting more and more charismatic. Still a heel but he could have been a bigger star than he was if promoted the right way. Vince Sr was wedded to his generic booking formula so the WWF didn't really have any fixed "top heel" at the time, it's come in 3 shots with the champ and out. Hogan, though, also worked a program with Andre and stuck around quite a long time compared to some other heels. They could have held onto him. Everyone talks about Verne losing Hogan to Vince Jr., but what about Vince Sr losing Hogan to Verne? That formula made him a ton of money for decades. His son followed that formula and made even more money you know who i'm really glad HASN'T been mentioned in this thread? one of the main guys who tends to pop up in this discussion with smarks... early 90s scott steiner thank you, everyone, and god bless Early 90's Scott Steiner wasn't ready. Flair may not have bought his A game to that match at the Clash, but neither did Scott. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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