Nobuhiko Takada

[Grimmas]

Discuss here.

[Phil Schneider]

Kind of the ultimate 90's nostalgia bubble guy. I watched all of his New Japan and UWF1 and 2 80's stuff and he was bad more then he was good. There are some highlights, but a lot of lowlights, and I hated his Juniors stuff. He had his moments, especially against Fujiwara, but shouldn't by anywhere near a top 100

[Timbo Slice]

Not seeing it. In the big matches I've seen him in, he was always the lesser guy, and I never saw anything from him that made me think he was on the level of his other shoot-style contemporaries.

[Loss]

Takada is the type of guy that I think those who have never really seen him should at least see a decent sampling of and then decide for themselves if he belongs or not. He'll be on the lower end of my ballot if he makes it at all, but he has been a part of too many iconic matches to just write off completely sight unseen.

[goodhelmet]

Where did he end up on the Smarkschoice list?

[El-P]

Not high enough to me, probably. Oh, anyway...

[ohtani's jacket]

Poor Jerome. I won't potty mouth Takada anymore. I saw him on TV the other day and he hasn't aged so well.

[pol]

He seems to me like an unnuanced worker in a style where nuance is key. I wonder if he might have had a better run in a promotion like All Japan whose style would have better played to his strengths, i.e. melodrama.

[jdw]

Poor Jerome. I won't potty mouth Takada anymore. I saw him on TV the other day and he hasn't aged so well.

 

 

 

He's 53. I'm thinking back to Riki Choshu in 1995-96, and he looked little different... just that he was 43-44 at the time. Misawa was dead at 46... I'm guessing if we dig up photos of him at 40 in 2002 that he looked about like this... well... maybe worse.

 

Maeda in 2009 when he was 50:

 

http://www.purolove.com/images/wrestler/njpwawards/gw2009maeda.jpg

 

http://www.njpw.co.jp/data/greatest/maeda/images/maeda03.jpg

 

I think some of you younger guys don't understand what happens when you get older.

[JerryvonKramer]

Is he doing Takeshi's Castle?!

[jdw]

http://tokusatsunetwork.com/2015/01/17/nobuhiko-takada-portray-black-shogun-super-hero-taisen-gp

[Ray]

Where did he end up on the Smarkschoice list?

 

 

Not high enough to me, probably. Oh, anyway...

 

#19

 

http://s7.zetaboards.com/Smarkschoice/topic/8559494/1/

[elliott]

 

Where did he end up on the Smarkschoice list?

 

 

Not high enough to me, probably. Oh, anyway...

 

#19

 

http://s7.zetaboards.com/Smarkschoice/topic/8559494/1/

 

 

I'm wondering if El-P would like to make the case here for Takada as a top 20 worker.

 

I'm not trolling. Well, I am, but I'm not trying to be a dick about it, as I will absolutely read and consider what you have to say. Like I said before I probably would have ranked him top 20 if I did this in 2000 or 2001 in the VHS days. But with the footage explosion, youtube, and discs, I've been able to see a lot more of Takada himself and other workers and there are a lot of people I like more. But since you're still a big fan I'm wondering if you can run down the case. Even better if you would compare him to other workers. A comp vs other shoot style guys or just other workers you see as on his level.

[El-P]

 

I'm wondering if El-P would like to make the case here for Takada as a top 20 worker.

 

Ten years ago, I would have absolutely done it. Now ? Honestly, the idea of ranking wrestlers has passed me by some time ago. It's not even a fun idea anymore. Where I stand now, I just wanna see who's stock goes up and down depending on what I'm watching, who can be interesting even at the simple "solid" level, stuff like these. I'm nowhere near obsessive enough to binge watch a shitload of matches just to "study" a guy. At this point I know what works for me and what I dislike, and I can be pretty objective about things too (hell, I just praised an RVD vs Test match yesterday).

 

The thing with Takada is, I found absolutely ridiculous the backlash that made him drop from "great wrestler" to "terrible wrestler" status, as an updated canon was being established. Last time I watched a lot of Takada was a few years ago when I went through a lot of UWF 1 & 2. I was wondering what I would think about Takada then, since the backlash had already happened. And the fact is I thought Takada was already pretty fucking good when he was young, and quite the terrific worker by the end of the decade. Meanwhile, Fujiwara's stock has risen a lot with me too, to the point I'd call him a great worker in the early to 2/3rd 80's (in the second UWF he was still very good/excellent but was getting a bit goofier, which always cracks me up when I have to read that he's "pure shoot style" while doing those ridiculous headbutts). Even back 15 years ago I was already saying that Takada was not a great pure "shoot-style" worker, but that he was a terrific "big match" worker. More flair than substance ? Without a doubt. See also, Flair, Ric (pun intended).

 

My favourite shoot style worker, the best ever to me and one of my top 10 favourite workers ever is Tamura. I'm actually much more a Tamura fan than a Takada fan. But the whole Takada deal has almost become a running gag around this place (much like the Raven reference).

 

So yeah, I probably won't make a case, because it's not where the fun of watching wrestling is to me right now (as opposed to waching early TNA and WWECW… wait… something's wrong here). But if I get the urge to watch some shoot style again (or some 80's NJ) before this thing is over, I will surely post my thoughts around here, not only about Takada but about other guys as well.

[GOTNW]

I'll take his worked PRIDE stuff into account as well. The Otsuka "fight" in particular was amazing. And his stint in HUSTLE is pretty much the greatest thing ever.

[El-P]

Been rewatching his classic matches from UWF in 1990, and some UWF-I vs NJ stuff. Yeah, Takada was terrific at what he did. Great big match worker. Of course he's much closer to Onita in spirit that Fujiwara or Tamura. He's not about doing amazing matwork and submission wrestling. He's about milking each near escapes and KOs to their most dramatic effect. He's about making everything look big (like, say, Cena). And although he's not a mat scientist, he's really good on his feet and he will kick you in the face. Actually, kicking Koji Kitao in the face immediately warrants him a very high placement. Well, all joking aside, I will not have him as high as last time, most probably, but top 20 ? Pretty sure. I'll revisit some NJ eighties stuff too, to see how this holds up with me.

[Dylan Waco]

I am willing to give shootstyle Takada a second chance. May go on that binge this week in fact.

 

NJPW is a lost cause with me - I thought he was boring as piss in New Japan, and I wasn't expecting that at all coming in to watching the footage.

[BillThompson]

I thought he was really great in the 96 Tokyo Dome show where he lost the strap to Hashimoto. Of course, he was in the ring with Hashimoto...

[GOTNW]

Takada's struggle to get out of the Brainbuster once Hashimoto had already lifted him up was an amazing visual and made the Brainbuster an even bigger deal. Of course Hashimoto milked it out and it resulted in one of the biggest pops ever.

[El-P]

(from the yearbook discussion) Takada's biggest strenght is actually on "defense", making every big KO he takes and every submissions he's put on look like death and milk them Onita style. Takada can be awesome on offensive too, especially standing up, kicking or punching you in the face (the headbutt revenge spot during his February 90 match against Fujiwara was a great exemple for instance, as is him punting Kosh face in 96 in retaliation of a dropkick), and although he's not a mat wizard like Fujiwara is, he's excellent at feeding holds to his opponent. And that's what his game is about : he doesn't want to look like a great technician, he doesn't care about that like John Cena doesn't care to work like Steven Regal. He wants to create drama, be put into holds so he can get into the ropes in a frenzy and sell every knock down to the maximum effect. That's Takada's game. Pro-wrestling mentality vs shoot-style mentality ? Who cares. He's terrific at what he does.

[Jetlag]

Takada is falling asleep on the mat way too much in my eyes for me to see it like that, really. Is he really feeding holds when he's just a shitty matworker? Atleast Cena will look like he's actually fighting. I like some Takada matches but a lot of the time he's really bland to me. Not as bad as Minoru Tanaka, though.

[El-P]

Takada is falling asleep on the mat way too much in my eyes for me to see it like that, really.

 

Nah. You're the one falling asleep and Takada decline any responsability if you're not paying attention. As far as looking like he's actually fighting, well, I've never seen Cena punt anyone with kicks and palm strikes as agressively as Takada does. Especially when he's pissed when the guy he's working with is the one not paying attention. And when he's going for the ropes trying to escape the submissions, he's simply one of the best ever at making it dramatic and urgent.

[Jetlag]

I was entirely referring to his matwork there. I pay attention whenever I'm watching shootstyle. When you're dull that is not going to last long... the last Takada match I watched was vs. Sano and I remember Takada pretty blatantly being a stiff during the grappling sections and Sano literally dragging him through the match. Heck, the finish to the Fujiwara/Takada match in 1990 is Fujiwara being unconscious, waking up and then submitting Takada because Takada was apparently too dumb to lock in a proper submission on a knocked out veteran... which makes me wonder is Takada a buffoon when it comes to the mat, or is it his gimmick that he's a buffon? Eitherways if you are shootstylist and you want to qualify for a top 100 all time in my eyes you should be good at matwork as it makes up most shootstyle matches. I get what you are saying about his strikes, I like the Vader matches, but if we are going by a) aggressive striking and ability to create drama in a shootstyle match what does Takada have that ranks him above guys like Wataru Sakata, Hiroyuki Ito, Ryuki Ueyama? Speaking about pure ability there.

[El-P]

Wanting great matwork from Takada is like wanting great matwork from Jerry Lawler. It's just not his game. I don't know why people can't get that through their heads. I guess it's an entirely stylistic matter. "Oh, it's shoot-style so it's about matwork and kicking.". Not necessarily. These are just tools. Takada had the most pro-style mind of the shoot-style guys. And he became the biggest star ever in his realm because of it actually.

 

I have not seen enough Sakata to judge, but his work came mostly after the shoot-style was gone anyway. I don't think HUSTLE produced that much classics. His wife is awesome though.

 

The other two are mostly MMA guys, aren't they ? So I don't even see the point. By UWF standarts, Takada was a very good striker, that's all. His ability to create drama is all about selling and milking shit Onita-style. Nothing to do with pure kicking ability (and really, the ability to create drama of Jerry Lawler has nothing to do with his "wrestling" ability either)

[Jetlag]

They are U-Style guys. Sakata was in RINGS too... I don't see why it's pointless to compare shoot stylists when you are trying to figure out who is the best of them. If you think he has a pro style mind, how does he compare to someone like Alexander Otsuka or other BattlARTS guy?

 

And yes, being good at matwork is important, when you are trying to do matwork. You can't work a 20 minute match that is all dramatic ropebreaks and aggressive striking the entire time. So Takada fills the time in between by lying around. You don't get great matwork from Lawler matches simply because there's no matwork in them... there's a long Lawler/Race title match which has some great matwork, by the way. Takada matches have necessary matwork in them (winning chance being by matwork-related submissions or matwork-related rope breaks) and he's an embarassment at it. Even the Vader matches have their dull bits.

 

About the Onita comparison: is that a reference to him fighting dudes like Albright and Vader? Otherwise I'd like to know a match where Takada's clearly driving things with his Onita-like charisma, preferably a match where's not facing a superworker like Sano or Tamura.