Observer HOF prediction/ballot question thread

[funkdoc]

It seems odd to me that Orton, Batista, and Edge won't get in when WWE has made hundreds of millions in profits over the past decade. Jericho is the only modern WWE guy to get in besides Cena?

 

i've thought about this before. someone on here used to say that sting was "the sabermetric candidate", but i think that statement miiiiiiight apply more to these types? it's tough though

 

the problem is that pro wrestling has been at a low point in terms of cultural buzz here during this era, and there's also the perception that the brand is the draw. i will say that i probably fall more on that side of this argument. i just can't get past the fact that WWE didn't miss a beat when they lost guys like angle, hardy, and punk. sorta like terrell davis's pro football HOF case being hurt by the success of other random RBs in denver after he retired, ya dig?

[SteveJRogers]

Every hall of fame has this issue

Yeah but it seems that description fits the BBWAA members who vote for the baseball hall.

 

Specifically bull shit like not voting for guys on the first ballot, instances where someone gets a lone vote for the silliest of reasons* and other insanity.

 

*True story, a pedestrian journeyman pitcher made it on the ballot, obviously he was going to be a one and done, but he got his lone vote from a writer who went to college with him, and the pitcher shared a bong with him at a college party.

 

Awesome story of course, but silly reason for someone to garner their lone HOF vote for.

[Grimmas]

Every hall of fame has this issue

Doesn't mean there shouldn't be an attempt to fix it.

[El Boricua]

 

Every hall of fame has this issue

Doesn't mean there shouldn't be an attempt to fix it.

 

 

 

I'm not too bothered about this since you'll always have people from both extremes who turn the ballots in quickly (those that barely give it a thought and those that spent the whole time in between votes studying/researching candidates) and who wait until the last minute to send their ballot in (those who use all of their time to make an informed vote and those who fill it out quickly at the last second without much thought in order to meet the deadline).

 

The one thing that has always bothered me more about this voting process is allowing voters to self select every year what categories they vote in. Not everyone exercises restraint and good judgement on whether they know enough on the specific group of candidates to vote fairly on all of the candidates in that group. They may know enough about only one guy in the category, and if they vote for that guy they damage the chances of any other candidates in that group. The one group where I know this is unavoidable due to how it's made up is the catch-all Australia/Pacific Islands/Caribbean/Africa, but for the others it's an issue that bothers me,

[Al]

 

It seems odd to me that Orton, Batista, and Edge won't get in when WWE has made hundreds of millions in profits over the past decade. Jericho is the only modern WWE guy to get in besides Cena?

 

i've thought about this before. someone on here used to say that sting was "the sabermetric candidate", but i think that statement miiiiiiight apply more to these types? it's tough though

 

the problem is that pro wrestling has been at a low point in terms of cultural buzz here during this era, and there's also the perception that the brand is the draw. i will say that i probably fall more on that side of this argument. i just can't get past the fact that WWE didn't miss a beat when they lost guys like angle, hardy, and punk. sorta like terrell davis's pro football HOF case being hurt by the success of other random RBs in denver after he retired, ya dig?

 

Currently there is somewhere around 30 inductees who were born in the 1960s, five from the 1970s, and none yet born in the 1980s. At some point you either have to induct some of this generation, or take the position that this generation is grossly inferior to previous generations. There might be truth to the latter position, but given that every generation thinks the next generation is shit, it's a dangerous position to take. If you accept the former position, then at this stage we probably have to re-assess what makes a Hall of Famer in this era.

[Loss]

Being consistently put in a top position and delivering in the ring more often than not there I think is the only criteria we can use for modern candidates, with merchandise sales being a bonus, although all we have there is very non-specific info with no context, so I don't think that should be weighed too much.

[WrestlingPower]

Danielson: absolutely should be in on first ballot

 

Orton: I see him as a better candidate than Edge. Edge's candidacy always bugged me because he was out injured so much. The sum total of his active career makes him less impressive. He may have been seen as a top star for however many years but he was probably out injured 50% of that. To follow onto the talk above of representing all generations, to me Orton should go in at some point when you look at the fact that Cena & Jericho would be the only representatives of the WWE-only era. He's been "in the mix" of top guys for 10-11 years now with not many breaks. The constant turns haven't seem to dull his appeal as much as a guy like Luger.

 

Nakamura: to me it's too early but he's in the discussion. Given the precedent set with Tanahashi it wouldn't shock me to see him go in.

 

Styles: again I think it's a couple years too early and I see Orton as a better candidate. I'd like to hear some discussion comparing him to like Sting & Luger, guys who were the faces of a "#2" company who kind of had their careers stalled out by booking that you could arguably tie into why they weren't effective draws.

 

CIMA: I realize in the internet age that the Observer attracts a lot more people who are influenced by so many other voices and are more widely "read" so to speak on wrestling around the world. But I almost wonder if Dave's lack of coverage of Dragon Gate over the years may harm CIMA's candidacy. I agree with all of the talk above about comparing him to Hamada and about how DG has been so consistent for so long. But it seems like they've been on the upper cusp of promotions that just misses the cut of what Dave feels is important enough to cover. And have literally been riding that cusp for their entire existence. So I think their success & consistency will be lost on enough of the voters to take him below 60% regardless of his qualifications.

 

I think Lesnar & Punk may be the most interesting ones to track how they do. And Colon too as he continues to be a victim of the "region" he's in.

 

The only way I've thought of to "fix" the voting would be to eliminate regions and have each & every candidate require a "yes/no/don't know enough" checkbox.

[pantherwagner]

 

Every hall of fame has this issue

Doesn't mean there shouldn't be an attempt to fix it.

 

 

What would you suggest to fix it? I'm curious, as I can't think of many things that would truly be effective.

 

Unfortunately you can't start taking ballots away from people who should not have one. Boricua's "region limit" is something that has been talked about before in this forum but I don't know if that would actually solve any problems as it could potentially accentuate them even more by letting more undeserving people in (the "lucha expert pool" on the WON HOF has always been somewhat suspect, the Japanese fans sometimes seem to be in their own bubble and use very different metrics than others, a lot of the "modern reporters" seem to be people who shouldn't be allowed near a ballot, etc.). A minimum wait time before the ballot can be sent wouldn't make a difference either.

 

The HOF is what it is and I take it as such. I was a voter for many years but a decade ago I stopped voting because I thought it was getting silly. I eventually stopped getting a ballot but for whatever reason a few years ago I got it back and now I vote again but take it as a learning/teaching/discussing opportunity for us in this corner of the internet.

 

How many of you who considered yourselves BIG lucha fans 10 years ago would have been able to articulate a compelling case for Misioneros de la Muerte (who I consider a slam dunk pick)? And how many of you can do it now? How about Villano III? People like Steve Sims and I made cases for them a very long time ago - this ended up pushing people like Matt Farmer to come up with more facts and data that neither Steve or I knew about.

 

On the other hand, I have learned a lot about people like Koloff, Patera, Lewin - guys that I saw mostly at the tail end of their careers.

 

I like seeing "my guys" getting recognition, but at the end of the day I decided that for me it's about journey and not the destination.

[Parties]

Does anyone have a sense of who makes up the current set of voters? How many ballots does he usually receive? I know Bix and Zellner have ballots, and that there a few other historians in the mix. I know guys like Cornette and Matisyk get them, as does Ross most likely. Is it mostly workers/people who've worked in wrestling? Or does it skew more towards Meltzer's peers? Like, do people who currently work for companies like WWE/NJ/ROH actually vote? That just seems like a really backwards system if someone like Gedo is voting for Nakamura.

 

And yeah, I agree with Boriqua's note that there are almost certainly people voting in regions for which they lack proper knowledge. If you haven't seen a decent amount of work from all of the candidates in said region, you shouldn't be there. Part of voting anyone in should be weighing them against the other options in their era/nation.

[Grimmas]

Few quick fixes.

 

Raise age/time in business limit so you aren't voting for people in their prime.

Don't give out ballots to people who don't deserve them.

I think designating what areas people can vote in is something to look into.

Set up some kind of hub for discussion and debate.

[Tim Cooke]

Does anyone have a sense of who makes up the current set of voters? How many ballots does he usually receive? I know Bix and Zellner have ballots, and that there a few other historians in the mix. I know guys like Cornette and Matisyk get them, as does Ross most likely. Is it mostly workers/people who've worked in wrestling? Or does it skew more towards Meltzer's peers? Like, do people who currently work for companies like WWE/NJ/ROH actually vote? That just seems like a really backwards system if someone like Gedo is voting for Nakamura.

 

And yeah, I agree with Boriqua's note that there are almost certainly people voting in regions for which they lack proper knowledge. If you haven't seen a decent amount of work from all of the candidates in said region, you should be there. Part of voting anyone in should be weighing them against the other options in their era/nation.

 

Seems like way too many people votes. Ben Miller has had one since 2001 - that should tell you all you need to know.

[El Boricua]

 

 

Every hall of fame has this issue

Doesn't mean there shouldn't be an attempt to fix it.

 

 

What would you suggest to fix it? I'm curious, as I can't think of many things that would truly be effective.

 

Unfortunately you can't start taking ballots away from people who should not have one. Boricua's "region limit" is something that has been talked about before in this forum but I don't know if that would actually solve any problems as it could potentially accentuate them even more by letting more undeserving people in (the "lucha expert pool" on the WON HOF has always been somewhat suspect, the Japanese fans sometimes seem to be in their own bubble and use very different metrics than others, a lot of the "modern reporters" seem to be people who shouldn't be allowed near a ballot, etc.). A minimum wait time before the ballot can be sent wouldn't make a difference either.

 

The HOF is what it is and I take it as such. I was a voter for many years but a decade ago I stopped voting because I thought it was getting silly. I eventually stopped getting a ballot but for whatever reason a few years ago I got it back and now I vote again but take it as a learning/teaching/discussing opportunity for us in this corner of the internet.

 

How many of you who considered yourselves BIG lucha fans 10 years ago would have been able to articulate a compelling case for Misioneros de la Muerte (who I consider a slam dunk pick)? And how many of you can do it now? How about Villano III? People like Steve Sims and I made cases for them a very long time ago - this ended up pushing people like Matt Farmer to come up with more facts and data that neither Steve or I knew about.

 

On the other hand, I have learned a lot about people like Koloff, Patera, Lewin - guys that I saw mostly at the tail end of their careers.

 

I like seeing "my guys" getting recognition, but at the end of the day I decided that for me it's about journey and not the destination.

 

 

 

I absolutely agree that any hypothetical region assignment would only work if the assigned voter pool is a strong and knowledgeable one.

 

The journey is the most important aspect, but the sometimes frustrating aspect of this is that the journey should lead to the end results and it doesn't always work that way since the journey is not traveled as it should be (so to speak) by everyone who participates. Too much hopping a ride to the end destination without taking in and understanding the surroundings traveled to get there.

[jdw]

re: undeserving HOFers etc.

 

if you'll notice, the vast majority of the weakest HOF selections have come from the japan category. e.g. ultimo, dr. death, hase, sasaki, masa saito

 

it seems clear to me that those voters are either more lenient or just have a totally different view of the HOF than we do. so i would never count out nakamura...

 

anyway bryan seems really likely to get in this year, esp with the sympathy from all his injury issues. and i think doing what his crew did for the indies is a significant enough achievement for the hall, given what an important talent source they've become

 

I actually think that it's more voters whose "knowledge" is US based but happen to vote for some folks they know or that Dave has pimped over the years.

 

Saito got in as much for having bounced around the US forever than what he did in Japan, which wasn't terribly notable.

 

Dragon was helped by his time here.

 

Doc is an American who spent half his career in the US, and got sympathy illness points.

 

Sasaski is someone Dave pimped, especially after the crop of Japanese candidates thinned (i.e. the locks of Sasaki's generation we all already in and the crop behind him was weak at the time).

 

Hase was someone Dave pimped, and I regularly saw voters who didn't really follow puroresu parrot errant views of him. It was bang your head against the wall stuff. Funaki was frankly the same thing.

 

* * * * *

 

This tends to go to the point some of us have made over the years, and is getting made again here:

 

When Dave hands someone their ballot, he should tell them the region(s) they can vote in.

 

That's not terribly complicated.

 

I might respect Bruce Mitchell or Jim Ross' opinions on a variety of topics, but they flat out shouldn't be casting a vote for wrestlers and promoters who were/are based in Japan.

 

That would apply to probably 98% of the voters when it comes to Mexico.

 

I'll cop to the fact that I shouldn't be voting for candidates from Mexico. It simply isn't my area of expertise. I do ping Jose and Sims most years, especially when there are new people added to the ballot who may be reasonable candidates. But taking their views (which doesn't agree on everything), mixing in my limited knowledge... in the end I'm like the folks who voted Hase in.

 

Why Dave doesn't make this change, along with the age one? Beats me. Doesn't seem like there's much chance of it changing.

[Bix]

Haven't most of the Japanese candidates we've questioned been guys who Dave said got huge support from within Japan itself, especially Japanese journalists? It's why I've thrown up my hands and abstained from voting in the category: It's the only one where there appears to be a very clear dividing line between what the native and foreign fans think.

[GSR]

 

Does anyone have a sense of who makes up the current set of voters? How many ballots does he usually receive? I know Bix and Zellner have ballots, and that there a few other historians in the mix. I know guys like Cornette and Matisyk get them, as does Ross most likely. Is it mostly workers/people who've worked in wrestling? Or does it skew more towards Meltzer's peers? Like, do people who currently work for companies like WWE/NJ/ROH actually vote? That just seems like a really backwards system if someone like Gedo is voting for Nakamura.

 

And yeah, I agree with Boriqua's note that there are almost certainly people voting in regions for which they lack proper knowledge. If you haven't seen a decent amount of work from all of the candidates in said region, you should be there. Part of voting anyone in should be weighing them against the other options in their era/nation.

 

Seems like way too many people votes. Ben Miller has had one since 2001 - that should tell you all you need to know.

 

 

And I'd imagine Alvarez has had one since before that.

[jdw]

Haven't most of the Japanese candidates we've questioned been guys who Dave said got huge support from within Japan itself, especially Japanese journalists? It's why I've thrown up my hands and abstained from voting in the category: It's the only one where there appears to be a very clear dividing line between what the native and foreign fans think.

 

I always find that pretty suspect. Unless Japanese journalists are just voting for everyone.

[kjh]

 

Haven't most of the Japanese candidates we've questioned been guys who Dave said got huge support from within Japan itself, especially Japanese journalists? It's why I've thrown up my hands and abstained from voting in the category: It's the only one where there appears to be a very clear dividing line between what the native and foreign fans think.

 

I always find that pretty suspect. Unless Japanese journalists are just voting for everyone.

 

 

It made sense with Funaki (given that he's in largely based on being a shootfighting innovator, which a lot of non-native voters wouldn't consider as pro wrestling).

 

I understand Bix's point of view, but there's also the counter argument that knowledgeable foreign voters can better compare candidates across regions.

[jdw]

Funaki is one that I would agree, though much of that had to do with the death of the WON MMA HOF. If one wanted to argue he is worthy of being in an MMA HOF, I don't care. As a "pro wrestler", it remains a joke. But there wasn't really a place for his supporters to toss him after Dave dumped the WON MMA HOF.

[Loss]

Has anyone from the world of roller derby ever been proposed for the WON HOF?

[jdw]

[Robert S]

I think another guy besides Funaki who I remember Dave saying that he got huge support from Japanese which put him in was Masa Saito.

[jdw]

I think another guy besides Funaki who I remember Dave saying that he got huge support from Japanese which put him in was Masa Saito.

 

"Dave tells me that every wrestler & writer in Japan voted for Masa Saito. So there you go." -Yohe, 09-26-2009 02:02 AM on WrestlingClassics.com

 

Saito got 62 votes, which accounted for 63% of the 98 voters counted as "Japanese Region Voters".

 

"Unless Japanese journalists are just voting for everyone." -jdw

 

One does wish Dave would make his data more transparent rather than obtuse. Not by "naming names", but by putting real numbers and labels to the data. He loves to break the data down into really useless groups that offer next to no insight.

[Loss]

Is there a place for comments on the ballot? Are there times you would have liked to have elaborated next to your picks?

[jdw]

Is there a place for comments on the ballot? Are there times you would have liked to have elaborated next to your picks?

 

It's sent out by e-mail, so responses/voting is done by e-mail. If one wants to send Dave a War & Peace response, they could. I try to keep mine clean.

 

I use to elaborate online at length on some candidates, so there never was a huge desire to send it with the ballot.

[goc]

If I had a ballot I would vote:

 

JYD

Ivan Koloff

 

Big Daddy

Jim Breaks

 

Jerry Jarrett