Roman / Brock vs. Sasha / Bayley

[JerryvonKramer]

Was just listening to Grimmas's thanksgiving show and there was a consensus between he and Tim L that Sasha and Bayley was the clear MotY. Grimmas also said it was almost certainly a lock for his top 100 all time matches.

 

Earlier this year, I did my top 100 all time matches and the most recent match on that list was Roman vs. Brock, which I think is easily one of the best WM matches ever. For me, Sasha vs. Bayley was not even in the same ball park and this contest is a no brainer. For Grimmas and Tim, it seems like Brock vs. Roman was not even in consideration for MOTY.

 

I am interested to know where people fall on this.

[NotJayTabb]

I loved Sasha/Bayley, but Brock/Roman is my MOTY. Was watching it live at 4am, out of coffee and beginning to flag, and it gripped me from start to finish. I loved how Roman's game plan got thrown out of the window early on, and became just a case of surviving and slowly (but surely) exposing little chinks in Brock's armour, until he's able to start throwing big bombs and have him on the verge of defeat. I hated the ending at the time, but I understand why they did it, the toxic reactions to Reigns winning could have been a disaster for his career. I've rewatched it countless times since, and still love it.

 

Sasha/Bayley is also great, probably top 3 of the year for me, but there's one or two nitpicky reasons I've not got it top - I didn't get why Sasha, who is in control, would hurl herself over the top rope to inflict more damage to Bayley's arm, felt like a risk that she didn't need to take. It's only little details like that, but I just loved Roman/Brock more.

[WingedEagle]

Entirely in Camp Parv here. Sasha/Bayley is easily the best US women's match I've ever seen at ****1/4, but there are quite a number of Joshi matches that would rank much higher.

 

Brock/Roman is at worst my #2 MOTY, one of, if not the all-time Mania match and an absolutely epic clash of the titans spectacle.

 

Hats off to the ladies, but there's no shame in coming up short against a classic.

[Badlittlekitten]

Roman/Brock is one of the greatest matches of all time. Sasha/Bayley will be forgotten by the time the next Critically Acclaimed NXT Womens Match is being fawned over.

[conker8]

I have Sasha / Becky over the two Bayley matches.

[JaymeFuture]

I'll go Roman/Brock personally as well, but I can understand that the cash-in finish, in combination with the stage its on (a whacky finish like that at a Mania is always a gamble because the nature of the show is supposed to deliver the opposite), may stop some people from instantly thinking it's better, because that weakness, if you deem it to be one, is where the Bayley/Sasha match is strong - the pre-show package, the environment, the match, the finish, who won, the post-match, it's all so complete, the story is full told, satisfying, and leaves you with that feeling of finality.

 

As for the work in the match, Roman/Brock all the way, not to discredit the women by any stretch.

[grapplin' apple]

I'm going for Sasha/Bayley, but mainly because it's the match that made my daughter a wrestling fan. So, emotionally, it's a pretty special match for me.

[Mad Dog]

Bayley/Sasha was one of those moments that reminded me of why I was a wrestling fan. Lesnar/Reigns might have been technically better but Bayley beating Sasha was a far better moment.

[Jingus]

For purposes of this discussion does Roman/Brock include the Rollins MitB angle? Or are we pretending it's a match without a finish?

[Slasher]

Easily Lesnar/Reigns. It is a match that I can see becoming part of WWE lore like Austin/Hart, Razor/HBK, etc. Until the WWE proves they can sustain the womens wrestling movement long term, I can't place that kind of importance on Sasha/Bayley...and that seems to be what the match is being sold as, some kind of cultural relevance and shift in thinking for women's wrestling in WWE. I just have more faith that Lesnar/Reigns will be sold as important 10 years later, and that really is how I judge MOTYs.

[Coffey]

I have Sasha / Becky over the two Bayley matches.

 

Agreed. I also have Sasha / Becky over Brock / Reigns, which apparently I'm going to have to watch again as I don't even remember it being anything special.

[Fando]

Easily Lesnar/Reigns. It is a match that I can see becoming part of WWE lore like Austin/Hart, Razor/HBK, etc...I just have more faith that Lesnar/Reigns will be sold as important 10 years later

 

What matches at that level in the history of the company weren't pushed immediately after as revolutionary or iconic though?

[Loss]

WWE hasn't pushed a match as revolutionary or iconic after the fact in a long time, with the brief exception of HHH-Undertaker after Wrestlemania 28. For the most part, nothing post-Monday Night Wars has been deemed deserving of canonization.

[goodhelmet]

For purposes of this discussion does Roman/Brock include the Rollins MitB angle? Or are we pretending it's a match without a finish?

 

You can't disregard the finish. It doesn't mean you have to throw away the great stuff that happened before but the finish is what it is.

[Bierschwale]

Brock Lesnar vs. Roman Reigns is not a match that has ever officially happened.

 

Brock Lesnar vs. Roman Reigns vs. Seth Rollins is, however. It's as simple as that. Calling Lesnar-Reigns the MOTY is like calling the best brawl within an angle the MOTY.

[Slasher]

It will be pushed if Roman Reigns becomes the guy. I think the reason Cena/JBL wasn't is because its JBL. But Batista/HHH on the same card was pushed as important to WWE canon.

[JerryvonKramer]

Brock Lesnar vs. Roman Reigns is not a match that has ever officially happened.

 

Brock Lesnar vs. Roman Reigns vs. Seth Rollins is, however. It's as simple as that. Calling Lesnar-Reigns the MOTY is like calling the best brawl within an angle the MOTY.

I'm not sure I get this.

[Slasher]

 

Brock Lesnar vs. Roman Reigns is not a match that has ever officially happened.

 

Brock Lesnar vs. Roman Reigns vs. Seth Rollins is, however. It's as simple as that. Calling Lesnar-Reigns the MOTY is like calling the best brawl within an angle the MOTY.

I'm not sure I get this.

Yeah me neither. The match was sold as Brock Lesnar defending his championship against Royal Rumble winner Roman Reigns. Never was Seth Rollins used in the marketing of the match beyond the wink wink manner of "But this guy could cash in...". The bell rang to indicate match started when it was Roman Reigns and Brock Lesnar standing in the ring. It was an official match and sold as such. However, it never got a "proper" conclusion as obviously the match got altered in the end to include Seth Rollins. That match got the conclusion, but Lesnar/Reigns was officially started as a match so it was a match, period.

[Bierschwale]

It's a triple threat by the history books even if it was ad hoc by kayfabe. There's not two separate matches, just one match won by Rollins.

[Parties]

First of all: watching these two side by side is a great use of an hour on Thanksgiving morning. Still the two best matches of the year anywhere, from what I've seen.

Reigns-Lesnar is a victim of bad booking. I’m not someone who can dismiss lousy booking and view match performance in a bubble: to me, a match’s quality is inexorably linked to what it means, where it leads to, what’s at stake, who benefits, and if it moves your storytelling down the proverbial field. The Rollins turn was somewhat entertaining in the moment, but in hindsight, Reigns should have won. It was his finest hour: took a brutal beating from Lesnar, got really tough crowd behind him, and for one night was the genuine badass conquering hero that achieves a happy medium between what fans want him to be and what WWE wants him to be.

Lesnar’s initial onslaught is really well-executed. The strikes from both guys are excellent and it’s worked like a true main event title fight. Reigns initially smiling his way through the suplexes before finally starting to sell them as knockout blows was the best character work of his career. That is who people want to cheer, and it made stuff like Brock’s big lariat off the apron to the floor mean so much more. One knock on this match is that the crowd pretty much dies after a few minutes of slowed-down Brock dominance. You can dismiss this as the nature of modern crowds who’ve been taught to zone out during any and all control segments, but it does feel like the air comes out of the stadium while Reigns sells on the floor and Brock catches his breath.

The moment of Reigns’ big comeback - with the three Superman punches and a spear - is everything you want in wrestling. The crowd initially wants Brock to overpower him, but with just a few well-timed strikes and some genuinely fantastic selling from Lesnar, suddenly the crowd is really swept up in Reigns favor.

And then comes that finish. Which, while well-executed by all three parties and still genuinely suspenseful even when you know what’s happening, is still not as satisfying or productive as a Reigns win, or even Brock retaining. And while I’m someone who actually likes shorter “big fights” and thinks that stuff like New Japan main events actually suffer for being 30 mins, this one feels a little too short: under 15 mins total even with the Rollins junk. It feels like it’s missing something partially because of the screwjob, but also because I wish there had been even just one more segment of Reigns and Lesnar throwing bombs or hitting each with some plunder. It could have used just a little more apocalypse to put it over the top.

Best Mania main event of all time. Probably the best Mania match of all time, coming at a point in history when everyone (no one louder than me) is criticizing the company for missed opportunities and failures to create stars/moments/drama. There’s no denying that this is the second best match of 2015, and superior to anything from 2014 as well.

So here’s why Sasha-Bailey is better.

Sasha-Bailey is a triumph of good booking. From the moment Bailey’s music hits, you’re watching a triumphant spectacle. The match hasn’t even started yet and it’s already the most fun, jubilant, entertaining moment WWE’s put on in ages. The crowd is elated just to see her.

And then you get an even more fantastic entrance from Banks where the fans go insane. With these two contrasts, you’re perfectly the tale of two cities in modern WWE fandom. You have their best babyface since Bryan going against the cool heel who fans both love to hate and cheer. I’ve talked about this elsewhere, but the greatness of Sasha is in large part that she’s young enough and booked as such. Her character is a reflection of early 20s self-absorbed celebrity, the very same kind that people both love to hate and cannot stop watching in every magazine, TV show, and album of now. The music, the gear, the guards, and Escalade entrance deliver the greatest moment she’s had yet, and just a perfect presentation of the character at exactly the right time. Getting booed when announced from Boston was tremendous as well. Crowd for this match is much better than that of Mania, partially due to the roof on the sucker. (Full disclosure: I was there - in the nosebleeds - at Bailey-Sasha live. Even if I hadn’t been, I think I would still put it over Reigns-Lesnar.)

As a sidenote: NXT’s announcers are hit or miss, but this was a hit. Graves can sometimes be overbearing and Strikeresque in the way he hits stuff too hard. He still has some bad moments here of getting tongue-tied and underplaying/telegraphing Bailey’s chances, but he’s a pseudo-heel. Saxton as the Bailey Believer was great. Brennan as play-by-play was always focused. They didn’t add a ton to this, but at a time when WWE announcers tend to detract from matches, coming out neutral ain’t half bad.

The fluidity of chain wrestling early is great: both lightning quick and smooth in their counters and pins. Banks going for the Cesaro corner suplex and instead opting to just kick her opponent really hard in the knee to send her smashing to the floor was awesome heeling. Banks’ beatdown work as a heel champ has no wasted motion: it’s all obnoxious, cruel, and aggressive. Screaming “You’re a loser” is a little over the top, but would you put it past DeSean Jackson, David Ortiz, or JR Smith to do the same? During the first big comeback after the heel control, you get some very good selling from Bailey on her arm and Banks checking her nose and teeth for blood. The Eddy Guerrero comparison gets thrown around a lot with Sasha, but you really see shades of it here.

There is some cooperative stuff in the women’s match that in execution makes it arguably worse than Reigns-Lesnar. Hanging someone in the Tree of Woe that then requires them to do a sit up just so that Bailey can hit an elbow drop is silly, even if Del Rio now does an even worse version of the same thing. But I’ll take a superior story over flawless execution.

The working over of Bailey’s hand was tremendous, and to me takes more brains and skill than Lesnar and Reigns hitting each other until they bleed hardway. Banks’ plancha over the ref is my favorite spot of the year, and the reaction live was some overwhelming Gladiator shit.

Bayley’s comeback is better than that of Reigns. Banks’ bumps off the suplex into the corner and getting dumped on her head off the top rope are way more vicious than any in Reigns-Lesnar. Anyone who thinks this is only fierce and violent by “women’s” standards isn’t watching the match. By utilizing submissions so well and playing off the hand storyline, you end up with more genuinely suspenseful nearfalls. Reigns-Lesnar is a match where you know what’s going to be a two-count. With the women, you don’t know how or when or why this match will end. All of the pins make sense, and both look like an attempt to win and a believable finish. The selling from Banks by the end is tremendous.

Then a bizarre, entirely unfathomable thing happens: they give the people what they want. The face wins, with great fortitude. Has the feel-good celebration. Crowd absolutely loves it. You can criticize the 4 Horsewomen thing here, as many did on this board. What can I tell you? For me, it didn’t help, but it didn’t hurt. I’d have been more OK with it if they hadn’t booked a rematch shortly after in which Banks was supposed to go back to being a no respect heel. But as a single moment, I actually think the four of them plays great as genuine and heartfelt. We’ve seen the whole movement get torn to shreds on the main roster, but the unity of the four of them felt right in that building on that night, in what people assumed would be Sasha’s last night in NXT.

Last and most importantly: Sasha-Bailey is telling a feminist story, in a year in which the rights and roles of women were heavily contested worldwide. I’m sure that many of you roll your eyes at that notion, especially in light of what the Divas Revolution has become. So goes the Bro Internet. But what was achieved in this is far rarer and much more impressive than two heavyweight hosses having a slobberknocker - even one as great as Reigns-Lesnar.

[JerryvonKramer]

I thought the booking was smart and don't particularly care about it because match was at ***** before Rollins showed up.

 

Matches can end in a draw or screw finish and still get full five from me. I think fans put too much emphasis on clean pitfalls in general. I guess as evidenced by reactions to Roman vs. Brock.

[KobASHi]

Sasha/Bayley was better for everything it had attached to it. The hype, the build, the story, the crowd, the match structure, the finish, the payoff.

 

Reigns/Lesnar was a superb hoss brawl with an a horrid build and a babyface that while putting in a right tough shift was neglected as the hero and had a cash in, fuck finish swerve. Has this match even been talked up much since on TV?

 

and Sasha/Lynch was better than both for a match story and the workrate the body part hard on column, plus it pushed Becky over to the acceptance of the audience. Young lass deserved that round of applause.

 

All three are MOTY contenders for me personally. Lesnar is something special and I don't think the NXT girls getting more time to rehearse their matches makes it any less of an achievement. Savage and DDP did the same and the only people who complain are old lads stuck in a certain mentality, regardless of their talent.

[JerryvonKramer]

Last and most importantly: Sasha-Bailey is telling a feminist story, in a year in which the rights and roles of women were heavily contested worldwide. I’m sure that many of you roll your eyes at that notion, especially in light of what the Divas Revolution has become. So goes the Bro Internet. But what was achieved in this is far rarer and much more impressive than two heavyweight hosses having a slobberknocker - even one as great as Reigns-Lesnar.

 

I don't want to be trivial, but do you really add a snow-flake for the potential social or political significance of a given match?

 

Should I be marking Iron Sheik vs. Sgt. Slaughter down for its jingoism and xenophobia? Should I be marking the Dudes with Attitude angle up in 1990 for its commitment to equal rights (for black guys, JYD, for both South Americans and Giants, Gigante, for the disabled, Orndorff, and for the mentally challenged, Rick Steiner)?

 

We also don't seem to do this for other historically significant matches ...

 

Do you give Hogan vs. Andre an extra snow flake for the booking behind it?

 

Do you give extra significance to the Ron Simmons title win?

 

I am being serious on this.

[Matt D]

I think the finish makes the match better in some ways because the work had gotten to the point where the crowd was finally behind Reigns.

[Slasher]

The reason why Brock/Reigns hasn't been talked about much on tv is because 1. Reigns and Brock didn't face off again after that match and 2. Rollins took the belt and therefore the focus. But that is what I meant earlier, when Reigns gets the belt finally, the match will be referenced to and inserted into WWE lore. It probably would be like Cena vs Show at WM 20, a year before Cena became the man officially but that is the match that let people know what's coming for Cena. When Reigns becomes the man, they will look to that match and talk about how that was the moment Reigns really showed who he was as a main event singles wrestler. He was the first in a long time to really survive Lesnar's onslaught of suplexes and shit. The longer the divas' revolution goes on where they undo all the good stuff they started, where they stubbornly stick to Charlotte as the ace, when NXT womens wrestling probably disappears after both Bayley and Asura leaves, the less significant Sasha/Bayley becomes. Now since we are talking about MOTY, I won't and can't fault people for preferring Sasha/Bayley, but its not where I choose to measure MOTY qualification. I pick MOTYs on not only the beat match of the year but best chance of long term impact- and in that case, its Lesnar/Reigns for me.