Reactions to the Honorable Mention List, Part 3

[Danish Dynamite]

 

 

 

 

Can somebody justify Rock over Maeda? I know Maeda vs. Cena at Wrestlemania would have been so much better.

Everyone here has watched a Rock match, and most people here haven't seen many Maeda matches. That is probably the real reason. One guy was on TV and having big matches at the peak of wrestling's popularity. The other guy is a shoot style worker that you'd have to scour the internet to watch. It makes perfect sense to me.

And this is why the WKO 100 is superior, as we just ban people who don't recognize shootstyle is badass.

Haha :-) you have a good sense of humor. Especially since you know full well the excact opposite is the truth ;-)

[GOTNW]

 

One other factor for me (and I feel like a minority when it comes to this): professionalism. Maeda's incidents with Choshu and (especially) Andre played a non-negligible role in keeping him off my list as well.

Maeda being a professional is the only thing that kept him froom shoot KOing Andre's drunk ass. The Choshu shoot kick was an accident. If you watch the footage Maeda pats Choshu on the back to warn him he's going to kick him.

[Cross Face Chicken Wing]

 

I'm bummed about Kerry making the top 100. I know some people whose opinions I really respect are advocates. But he had a short peak and I don't know that I've ever felt he was the better guy in a great match. I don't hate him or anything. I just see him in a similar class to Luger or Sting, and when I look at the list of those already eliminated, I see dozens of more skilled workers.

I am a huge Kerry advocate... about 1/3 great match theory; 1/3 charisma and 1/3 Texas.

 

 

And he was a decent worker when he only had one foot. That has to count for something.

[Danish Dynamite]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Can somebody justify Rock over Maeda? I know Maeda vs. Cena at Wrestlemania would have been so much better.

Everyone here has watched a Rock match, and most people here haven't seen many Maeda matches. That is probably the real reason. One guy was on TV and having big matches at the peak of wrestling's popularity. The other guy is a shoot style worker that you'd have to scour the internet to watch. It makes perfect sense to me.

Although the counterpoint here is that because The Rock is so prominent, most people have seen all of his worst work from watching him week in week out, which can count against him. Whereas people who have seen Maeda are more likely to have focused mainly on the pimped stuff and not seen him at his worst.

I'd say it's much more likely the opposite is true. Those who considered Maeda are the most obsessive of the insanely obsessive wrestling nerds, so it's much more likely they dove deep into a lot of styles and revisited stuff specifically for this project. Rock voters probably forgot half of his disappointing stuff and I seriously doubt an average Rock considered as many styles and workers as an average Maeda voter. Grimas could provide statistics for this so we can see who's right.

For me I watched one Rock match the past year and it lasted six seconds. I watched maybe 15-20 Maeda matches. Didn't vote for either guy, but based on the footage I saw, The Rock was way closer to getting my vote.

[victory]

Victory, were you around when we had the big Andre debate on the board?

Not sure. I've read snippets here and there of some of you talking him up. Just not my cup of tea I guess. Who knows maybe I can be swayed by the time 2026 comes around 😀.

[Danish Dynamite]

Master list is updated through 101, for those who care.

 

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/33853-greatest-wrestler-ever-master-rankings-list-do-not-post-in-this-thread/

Perfect! Thanks :-)

[Loss]

I said this on WWTP, but watching young Andre really puts in perspective how awful Kevin Nash was. It's not that Nash wasn't a great athlete or anything like that. It's that he was a 7-foot-tall dude who could just suck the life out of a match because everything he did felt so small. The guy had a certain charisma when walking to the ring with his friends or doing shoot interviews, but in the ring, it just completely vanished. Andre was a great athlete, but Andre's athleticism was incidental to him being a great worker. His calling card for me was that there was no wasted movement -- everything he did just seemed so consequential and "big". He had so much presence, and not just because of his size. Thinking about big men, I realized when making that comparison that even though Nash is probably more fundamentally competent, I'd still put Sid higher on a list like this. Sid's charisma at least didn't disappear into thin air when the bell rang.

[JerryvonKramer]

 

Victory, were you around when we had the big Andre debate on the board?

Not sure. I've read snippets here and there of some of you talking him up. Just not my cup of tea I guess. Who knows maybe I can be swayed by the time 2026 comes around .

 

Just to give you the cliffs:

 

Some of us felt that the idea that Andre was great in his peak is a little over-stated because almost all his best performances come away from New York. He consistently dogs it at MSG or in Philly. And yet has ****+ matches in Houston and Japan, and sprited performances elsewhere (one in Detroit springs to mind).

 

I still ranked Andre because he was unique, played his role to perfection, and because when he was on, he was really on, but it's not a ranking that is blind to some of Andre's flaws. I don't believe people who claim to really value consistency -- for example -- should be ranking him.

[Matt D]

I said this on WWTP, but watching young Andre really puts in perspective how awful Kevin Nash was. It's not that Nash wasn't a great athlete or anything like that. It's that he was a 7-foot-tall dude who could just suck the life out of a match because everything he did felt so small. The guy had a certain charisma when walking to the ring with his friends or doing shoot interviews, but in the ring, it just completely vanished. Andre was a great athlete, but Andre's athleticism was incidental to him being a great worker. His calling card for me was that there was no wasted movement -- everything he did just seemed so consequential and "big". He had so much presence, and not just because of his size. Thinking about big men, I realized when making that comparison that even though Nash is probably more fundamentally competent, I'd still put Sid higher on a list like this. Sid's charisma at least didn't disappear into thin air when the bell rang.

Everything has been worth it.

[Danish Dynamite]

I said this on WWTP, but watching young Andre really puts in perspective how awful Kevin Nash was. It's not that Nash wasn't a great athlete or anything like that. It's that he was a 7-foot-tall dude who could just suck the life out of a match because everything he did felt so small. The guy had a certain charisma when walking to the ring with his friends or doing shoot interviews, but in the ring, it just completely vanished. Andre was a great athlete, but Andre's athleticism was incidental to him being a great worker. His calling card for me was that there was no wasted movement -- everything he did just seemed so consequential and "big". He had so much presence, and not just because of his size. Thinking about big men, I realized when making that comparison that even though Nash is probably more fundamentally competent, I'd still put Sid higher on a list like this. Sid's charisma at least didn't disappear into thin air when the bell rang.

100% agree

[Danish Dynamite]

 

 

Victory, were you around when we had the big Andre debate on the board?

Not sure. I've read snippets here and there of some of you talking him up. Just not my cup of tea I guess. Who knows maybe I can be swayed by the time 2026 comes around 😀.

Just to give you the cliffs:

 

Some of us felt that the idea that Andre was great in his peak is a little over-statet because almost all his best performances come away from New York. He consistently dogs it at MSG or in Philly. And yet has ****+ matches in Houston and Japan, and sprited performances elsewhere (one in Detroit springs to mind).

 

I still ranked Andre because he was unique, played his role to perfection, and because when he was on, he was really on, but it's not a ranking that is blind to some of Andre's flaws. I don't believe people who claim to really value consistency -- for example -- should be ranking him.

Agree. I'm probably higher on him than you (I am in the ranking, and probably just in general). But if consistency and the flaws you mention were non-factors he'd be close to the very top for me.

[anarchistxx]

If you hate the no sell comeback, which is pretty much the standard of all big time US babyfaces, do you also hate the stupid 'lets willingly stand here and exchange chops/forearms' fighting spirit wankfests? I saw some Kobashi match in NOAH where he did like a 5 minute chop exchange with someone and its maybe the dumbest thing I have ever seen.

 

You must not have watched much wrestling if the Kobashi/Sasaki chop exchange was the dumbest thing you have seen. In the context of the match it made sense - two aces staring each other out, seeing who would back down first, defiant, angry, showing guts and bravery, daring the other one to be the first to give in. The crowd went fucking mental for it.

 

Sure, the spot was overkill, but in between the amount of convoluted, fake looking, clearly phony spots and sequences you see in matches, that wasn't anywhere close to being dumb. Not to mention the fact that it makes zero sense being brought up during the argument that Kobashi used too many moves and not enough punch exchanges and more minimal stuff.

[Jingus]

 

At least we can finally stop asking "what about Maeda?" now. His placement does seem oddly high to me, for the reason that I don't remember ever hearing anyone really go to bat for him as being a great worker or having any number of matches worth visiting.

Did you read his thread?

 

I think so, but I honestly don't remember. I guess nothing written in there left much of an impression on me. After reading seven hundred of these damn threads, not all of it is gonna stay with you. (I assume someone had things to say about Mark Rocco or Kamala or Kyoko Inoue too, but I can't recall those discussions either.) I don't remember tangential discussion about Maeda creeping into any other threads, which tended to happen with most other guys who were popular enough to be ranked at this level.

 

If it's a great punch what difference does it make?

If it's a great punch, why would they need to throw a gazillion of them? It waters down the move's impact if you hit it a hundred times in a row and still never pin anyone with it anyway. I like to have at least a little bit of variety in my movez, doing the exact same offense over and over gets boring after a while, so I've never been terribly fond of most guys who just punch punch punch punch punch punch punch punch punch punch all the live-long day. There's ways to do that well and make a compelling match out of it, Lawler vs Funk comes to mind, but with most compulsive punchers it usually comes off as laziness or an inability to think of anything else to fill time with. And while I like The Rock quite a bit, I do think his worst in-ring flaw is how tiresomely reliant he is on filling time by endlessly "punching" when none of said punches are ever sold for more than couple of seconds.

 

And this is why the WKO 100 is superior, as we just ban people

Don't even get me started.

 

I voted against people for Texas, so that's sort of countered.

I don't think any of the Von Erichs would make my Top 20 Workers From Texas list. Heck, only David and Kerry would have a shot at Top 50.

 

 

I said this on WWTP, but watching young Andre really puts in perspective how awful Kevin Nash was. It's not that Nash wasn't a great athlete or anything like that. It's that he was a 7-foot-tall dude who could just suck the life out of a match because everything he did felt so small. The guy had a certain charisma when walking to the ring with his friends or doing shoot interviews, but in the ring, it just completely vanished. Andre was a great athlete, but Andre's athleticism was incidental to him being a great worker. His calling card for me was that there was no wasted movement -- everything he did just seemed so consequential and "big". He had so much presence, and not just because of his size. Thinking about big men, I realized when making that comparison that even though Nash is probably more fundamentally competent, I'd still put Sid higher on a list like this. Sid's charisma at least didn't disappear into thin air when the bell rang.

100% agree

 

Ditto. Nash always looked like a completely average guy who just so happened to be stretched out to an extra foot of height. Sid and especially Andre looked like huge unique monsters, completely different from everyone else who'd ever walked the earth. And most of Nash's offense always felt so damn inconsequential and oversold; it was embarrassing to watch guys sit there for a minute straight to sell the devastating impact of two or three back elbows in the corner.

[anarchistxx]

Kerry made my list almost entirely based on the fact that he was involved in two of my absolute favorite matches of all time.

[goc]

Crowds went mental for Lawler dropping his strap and Hogan doing his Hulk Up but that doesn't stop some people from bashing it. And if trading 100 plus chops for like 5 minutes isn't dumb it's at least uncreative and lazy.

[DR Ackermann]

Despite my disappointment on a few workers not making the top 100, I'm excited to see that guys like Pillman, Scorpio, Santana, Garvin, Chicana, Virus and Ikeda are going to make it.

[Death From Above]

I'll take 1970's Andre over a whole hell of a lot of things without even giving it a second thought. Loss' summary on the last page is excellent.

[Danish Dynamite]

Despite my disappointment on a few workers not making the top 100, I'm excited to see that guys like Pillman, Scorpio, Santana, Garvin, Chicana, Virus and Ikeda are going to make it.

Ditto to them all :-) ... Didn't vote for Virus or Ikeda, but am still strangely pleased they're still there.

[Childs]

Yeah, I didn't vote for Virus but am pleasantly surprised he made it.

[anarchistxx]

Crowds went mental for Lawler dropping his strap and Hogan doing his Hulk Up but that doesn't stop some people from bashing it. And if trading 100 plus chops for like 5 minutes isn't dumb it's at least uncreative and lazy.

 

The spot clearly wasn't there because they were lazy or lacking in ideas. It was for escalation, to give the match something different and special, to try and outdo previous memorable NOAH and AJPW title matches when it seemed impossible to top them. It wasn't Steve Austin and Chris Jericho walking up and down the ramp trading chops for twenty minutes at No Way Out 2002 waiting for the run in, because at that point they had nothing else to bring to the table. It was a unique, stunning exchange that had people talking and got over how defiant both men were and how epic the battle was. It hadn't been done to that extent before.

 

That was the point, not because they were sat backstage thinking about how to fill the time and decided "fuck it, we will just spend five minutes chopping each other". In the internal logic of the match/promotion it worked - they were springing up from head drops, so reacting with gutsy stoicism to dozens chops really wasn't too ridiculous.

 

The merits of it can be debated, and indeed were talked about massively at the time. It could even be called a major turning point for people getting disillusioned with that style of wrestling and how far the likes of Kobashi had taken it. But saying it was lazy in the same way a match based around endless punches is lazy is missing the point, especially since the rest of the match is filled with cool stuff.

[Danish Dynamite]

I'll take 1970's Andre over a whole hell of a lot of things without even giving it a second thought.

Yup. And I'd even include a lot of 80-84 Andre. ... From a storytelling perspective he also maximized his potential and physique in the last years of his career. All hail the 8th wonder :-)

[DR Ackermann]

Looking at the 2006 list there are actually a lot of guys that didn't make that one that will be there this time around. A lot of guys are finally getting their due. The future looks bright...

[Danish Dynamite]

Agree with the doctor! The future looks bright :-) The best of the past will live on!

[MasterJonBurr]

I can definitely say that filling out the tag list simultaneously led to me slighting some tag workers and leaving others off. In hindsight, this may have been a mistake. Yatsu and Tommy Rogers probably the largest gaffes.

 

Yours,

JHHBjr

[Phil Schneider]

Who were the dropoffs from the 2006 list?