Reactions to the List: 100-51

[bestintheworld3589]

Here are the people from my list that dropped today

Hulk Hogan (65)

Brian Pillman (61)

Chris Jericho (40)

Rick Rude (36)

[TheU_2001]

I had Tito at 97

Hogan at 7

Jericho at 24

Gordy at 88

Ron Garvin at 87

Rude at 32

Dynamite Kid at 43

Pillman at 54

Nakamura at 75

Destroyer at 77

Backlund at 82

Kerry Von Erich at 95

Zayn at 90

Undertaker at 22

Tanahashi at 49

Piper at 52

Dusty at 45

 

All are now out before getting to the top 50. Granted I had some ranked lower than that, but I would've liked to see Hogan and Rude finish a little higher because they are two of my favorites for sure. I also had Undertaker and Jericho ranked much higher than their places. I'll have to read Jericho's thread to get all the hate on him. Many are not high on Undertaker's "good" stuff, and seem quick to point out all the crappy angles/matches he's been in. He's not one of my favorites by any means, for the record. I have just enjoyed a good number of his matches (provided he had the right opponent), many of which I pointed out in an earlier post.

 

Although he (Jericho) did rank and many others who I thought would rank after listening to various podcasts on the subject, have fallen (lots of Joshi and Lucha, which are big blind spots for me personally).

 

Still, this has been a ton of fun and I'm loving the reveals, although Hogan and Rude falling out this early was a little sad. 😢

[Frankensteiner]

 

Wanted to jump back to say a quick word on Atlantis. He was my highest ranked luchador and I don't really get why others don't see him on the same tier with Santo, Dandy, and Casas. He's got the footage and the longevity to make a case. His matches with Panther are amongst the best in lucha history, and the Emilio and Villano feuds are just a level below. Also a good selection of post-prime matches that only add to his case. Although outside of the Villano III match, he doesn't have the volume of bloody, violent apuesta matches of someone like Dandy or Santo. That probably hurts him relative to them and admittedly the mask matches against Mano Negra and Kung Fu weren't very memorable. But on the other hand I think it's a pretty difficult thing to pull off being a classic, masked technico for most of the prime of one's career and Atlantis achieved that probably better than anyone else.

Why did you put him above Hijo del Santo? That seems like the easiest comparison and I don't see how you get Atlantis there. Not being dismissive (although I do disagree), I genuinely would like to hear why.

 

The only point in your post I disagree with actually is about the matches with Blue Panther. I'd have them closer to ****, not up there with the best in history. The last time I watched the 1991 match I was surprised by how shoddy some of the third fall work was.

 

For Santo, there's a couple of points regarding his prime. First, we don't really have a lot of footage of him prior to '92 outside of a few main matches. Then the AAA period is kinda disappointing where he's paired with Heavy Metal and Psicosis for what should be his absolute peak. Once he returns to CMLL, his best work was as a rudo against Casas. Footage is pretty extensive after that, but since he shows up in multiple places, sometimes his work tends to feel like Santo on tour or a greatest hits version. Mind you I voted Santo fairly high in my Top 20 so this is very much nitpicking between someone who I consider top 10 and top 20.

[TheU_2001]

 

 

 

 

Come on El P, you can badmouth him for a lot of things, but saying Hogan was a "terrible babyface" is like saying Charlie Chaplin was a terrible comedian.

No. it's been well established that Hogan kayfabe character was an asshole mistreating his friends and a whiny egomaniac bitch. There's a whole thread about this. Plus he was cheating his ass off and using shitty heel tactics (like scratching his opponent's back) despite being a colossus. It was so easy to agree with Jesse Ventura on color when he was pointing out how awful Hogan really was.

That was a fucking great thread.

Even as a huge Hogan fan, I need to find this thread. Sounds like a good read.

[Jimmy Redman]

 

 

 

Come on El P, you can badmouth him for a lot of things, but saying Hogan was a "terrible babyface" is like saying Charlie Chaplin was a terrible comedian.

No. it's been well established that Hogan kayfabe character was an asshole mistreating his friends and a whiny egomaniac bitch. There's a whole thread about this. Plus he was cheating his ass off and using shitty heel tactics (like scratching his opponent's back) despite being a colossus. It was so easy to agree with Jesse Ventura on color when he was pointing out how awful Hogan really was.

That was a fucking great thread.

Even as a huge Hogan fan, I need to find this thread. Sounds like a good read.

 

 

I think it's this one:

 

The Poor Sportsmanship of Hulk Hogan

[jaedmc]

You know for all the sadness I had watching the honorable mention rollout, I'm feeling pretty good so far with the Top 100. There's some skidmarks, sure, but Tajiri is 81 and Togo is 71. I'm feeling great.

[InYourCase]

Super glad Togo did as well as he did. Alan's summary is perfect for him. Well deserved.

[Quentin Skinner]

Togo was in the bottom 20 initially for me, but going back and watching his 2010/2011 run in DDT facing Honda, Sato, HARASHIMA, and Ibushi really shot him up.

[Cross Face Chicken Wing]

To be fair, Nash didn't have the chances that Kamala had. What if Nash was in early 1980s Memphis or able to wrestle Andre in a cage? What if he wrestled Magnum TA in a big outdoor stadium? We really have to factor in opportunity.

No we don't. Those rules don't apply when we're marveling at the greatness of Kamala.

[Death From Above]

 

 

The October 1993 match with Misawa is disappointing and outright bad, though it's hard to put a finger on why it's outright bad.

 

 

I honestly don't think there's a single "great" Hansen/Misawa match, which is one of the biggest goddamn mysteries of all time. Two incredible workers that simply do not mesh.

[PeteF3]

Hansen/Jumbo had their issues together as well. I wonder if that was a case of two guys being *too* similar, sort of like Shawn-Perfect but in reverse, if that makes any sense.

[Loss]

When two guys are accustomed to always being the driver, starting the car can be tough.

[Childs]

 

 

 

The October 1993 match with Misawa is disappointing and outright bad, though it's hard to put a finger on why it's outright bad.

 

 

I honestly don't think there's a single "great" Hansen/Misawa match, which is one of the biggest goddamn mysteries of all time. Two incredible workers that simply do not mesh.

 

This is a tired old saw. They meshed fine, and Hansen played a huge role in getting Misawa over as the new ace. Hansen hit higher peaks against Kobashi and Kawada, but those were some of the greatest matches of all time.

[Death From Above]

Sure, but I'm not saying their matches were bad, merely that none of them reached the heights one might expect.

[Danish Dynamite]

Pillman seems really well placed. Skills and peaks should place him quite a bit higher. The sadly incomplete career (due to many different reasons) makes a case for those not ranking him at all. This place seems right. Didn't like him as a kid, but have really come around on him.

 

Did not have Togo. Have seen some and found him quite good, but not top 100. Very much looking forward to seeing the match recommendations and more on him. He'll get a second chance from me.

 

PS: Kamala more fun than Nash? Agree! Kamala better than Nash? Don't know if I'd go there. To me you would have to set some pretty specific criteria to make that case. Gotta love the guy though.

[DR Ackermann]

Sure, but I'm not saying their matches were bad, merely that none of them reached the heights one might expect.

I remember them being too long and boring. There's nothing worse than a long, boring match.

[DR Ackermann]

Pillman seems really well placed. Skills and peaks should place him quite a bit higher. The sadly incomplete career (due to many different reasons) makes a case for those not ranking him at all. This place seems right. Didn't like him as a kid, but have really come around on him.

 

Did not have Togo. Have seen some and found him quite good, but not top 100. Very much looking forward to seeing the match recommendations and more on him. He'll get a second chance from me.

 

PS: Kamala more fun than Nash? Agree! Kamala better than Nash? Don't know if I'd go there. To me you would have to set some pretty specific criteria to make that case. Gotta love the guy though.

Kamala was definitely better! Wrestling is supposed to be fun.

[Timbo Slice]

Togo being in the Top 75 is awesome. He was probably the first guy I dove into when I started getting back into wrestling a few years back, and it started with that Honda match. Truly one of the best overall wrestlers I've ever seen, and I think it's pretty sad that he didn't get a better run with the bigger Japanese promotions. That being said, it allowed him to do basically whatever he wanted and he wrestled all over the world, so it wasn't all bad.

 

I'm now 63 left for the Top 70. Still waiting on Benoit, Michaels, Angle, Christian (Who I now want to get to the Top 50) and three others that are escaping me right now.

[DR Ackermann]

Togo being in the Top 75 is awesome. He was probably the first guy I dove into when I started getting back into wrestling a few years back, and it started with that Honda match. Truly one of the best overall wrestlers I've ever seen, and I think it's pretty sad that he didn't get a better run with the bigger Japanese promotions. That being said, it allowed him to do basically whatever he wanted and he wrestled all over the world, so it wasn't all bad.

 

I'm now 63 left for the Top 70. Still waiting on Benoit, Michaels, Angle, Christian (Who I now want to get to the Top 50) and three others that are escaping me right now.

Sorry, man, you must have missed him. Christian was 102.

[Timbo Slice]

Man alive. I guess my record keeping hasn't been as good as I thought. Or my memory.

[Danish Dynamite]

 

Pillman seems really well placed. Skills and peaks should place him quite a bit higher. The sadly incomplete career (due to many different reasons) makes a case for those not ranking him at all. This place seems right. Didn't like him as a kid, but have really come around on him.

 

Did not have Togo. Have seen some and found him quite good, but not top 100. Very much looking forward to seeing the match recommendations and more on him. He'll get a second chance from me.

 

PS: Kamala more fun than Nash? Agree! Kamala better than Nash? Don't know if I'd go there. To me you would have to set some pretty specific criteria to make that case. Gotta love the guy though.

Kamala was definitely better! Wrestling is supposed to be fun.

 

 

You had me at "Wrestling is supposed to be fun" Kamala IS better than...

[Danish Dynamite]

 

Togo being in the Top 75 is awesome. He was probably the first guy I dove into when I started getting back into wrestling a few years back, and it started with that Honda match. Truly one of the best overall wrestlers I've ever seen, and I think it's pretty sad that he didn't get a better run with the bigger Japanese promotions. That being said, it allowed him to do basically whatever he wanted and he wrestled all over the world, so it wasn't all bad.

 

I'm now 63 left for the Top 70. Still waiting on Benoit, Michaels, Angle, Christian (Who I now want to get to the Top 50) and three others that are escaping me right now.

Sorry, man, you must have missed him. Christian was 102.

 

 

39 down for me, 61 left for the last 70. Haven't got a clear picture of who the nine I don't have are, but Benoit and Angle are two.

 

Rick Rude is still my highest drop at #42, and I freely admit that I have him a bit high (think we've done the subjective vs. objective debate, but that's why ).

[El-P]

I really have't seen/watched any Dick Togo since my last MPro tape in early 00 or something. That's the only reason he doesn't get rated. Togo was a great worker. The WWF did its best to ruin him. Just picture Togo in 1998 against Rey in WCW. Damn.

[El-P]

 

75. Hulk Hogan

 

A few years back I got into watching old Hogan matches. I enjoyed a great many of them especially the blood feuds and the hot sprints. But honest to God, watching Hogan is like staying home from work sick and getting into the daytime soaps. If you keep watching them for long enough at least one of the storylines is gonna get you hooked. You'll come back for more all right, and by the end of the week you might even convince yourself that they're really well written, but if you have any sense you'll go back to work the following week and forget the whole thing ever happened. Apologies to Hogan and soap fans.

 

Awesome.

 

Really enjoy you going through the names BTW. Keep doing what you're doing !

[Woof]

Pillman doesn't have Jericho's lows or his flaws, certainly. Jericho might have had the better career but Pillman was the better wrestler.

 

This right here is why I wanted to set fire to my ballot and run screaming into the night. I couldn't for the life of me separate those two elements when trying to determine what I thought "greatness" meant and it killed any hope I had of my rankings making sense.