Reactions to the List: 100-51

[Loss]

It's worth noting that by 1995 (maybe even 1994 -- but that may just be booking), Pillman was already showing signs of decline. The Badd match was a shocker, because it's not like Pillman had done anything to stand out for a long, long time before that.

[Danish Dynamite]

 

 

Pillman doesn't have Jericho's lows or his flaws, certainly. Jericho might have had the better career but Pillman was the better wrestler.

This right here is why I wanted to set fire to my ballot and run screaming into the night. I couldn't for the life of me separate those two elements when trying to determine what I thought "greatness" meant and it killed any hope I had of my rankings making sense.

Agree. Peak, career, ability, matches, longevity, impact, consistency, storytelling and other factors. Whenever I decided one mattered more or less it changed my rankings...

[El-P]

It's worth noting that by 1995 (maybe even 1994 -- but that may just be booking), Pillman was already showing signs of decline. The Badd match was a shocker, because it's not like Pillman had done anything to stand out for a long, long time before that.

 

I believe Pillman had been injured early in 95, but I may be wrong. Or he was just getting too frustrated by the booking which made him no favors for the last year. But yeah, he wasn't as great as he was from 89 to 93.

[Yo-Yo's Roomie]

I think the criteria changes from wrestler to wrestler. At least to me. It's impossible to be consistent in something like this.

[Jimmy Redman]

Definitely true for me.

[Grimmas]

I think the criteria changes from wrestler to wrestler. At least to me. It's impossible to be consistent in something like this.

Exactly. My process was make the best argument for each guy and then compare them. Whoever had the better argument went higher.

[jamesie_2015]

 

82. Steve Williams

 

Williams isn't the first guy I'd think of if I were compiling a list, but he definitely had an interesting career. You've got his early territory work that's being reevaluated with the Houston footage, the MVC years that people seem torn on and the run of great All Japan matches. I personally think his 7/94 match with Misawa is one of Misawa's masterpieces and the 1994 Champion Carnival final is one of Kawada's best as well. He also had the run with Johnny Ace and pretty much supplanted Stan Hansen as the company's top gaijin ace. I remember really enjoying the MVC's WCW run during the WCW Smarkschoice poll but haven't had the time or inclination to revisit it. I didn't like their All Japan stuff the last time I ran through it. He's a guy I'm predisposed toward liking because of his look and his amateur background. I get a bit disappointed when he's not the wrestling machine I want him to be, so I don't think his territory work would do much for me assuming that he most brawls. Not a bad pick.

 

 

 

81. Yoshihiro Tajiri

 

Don't understand the groundswell of support this guy gets. Maybe I need to watch his ECW stuff. For some reason I can never separate him and Dick Togo in my mind and I always end thinking Togo is better. Watched a bunch of his matches against Mysterio during this project and they topped out at *** maximum. Just seems like more of a decent hand than top 100 all-time, but I could change my tune if I watched more.

 

 

 

80. Tito Santana

 

I love Tito Santana. I mean I really love me some Tito Santana. Steamboat, Martel, Hennig, whomever you wanna name, it's Tito Santana all day long. But I still maintain that he doesn't have as many good matches as a worker that talented should have. And not because he worked in New York instead of drifting around the territories. In an ideal world, you'd have an early 80s WWF card where you had a strong Backlund match on top and an excellent Tito Santana match on the undercard on every single billing, but it just didn't happen.

 

 

 

79. Terry Gordy

 

Never really got into Gordy in any way, shape or form. He's in plenty of tag matches I dug, but I'd have to go back and watch the Killer Khan match to see whether this placing is anything more than "okay, Gordy."

 

 

 

78. Dynamite Kid

 

So maligned it's become ridiculous. One of the best teenage talents I've ever seen. If he'd stayed in England he would have been on par with Marty Jones. His match against Jones in '83 is one of my all-time favourite WoS bouts. I love early Finlay but even early Finlay is a watered down version of DK at that time. It was mostly about attitude w/ DK. He looked like an asshole and wrestled like one. Whether that was because he had a chip on his shoulder, a Napoleon complex or he just a shit is fun to speculate, but his football hooligan look and his viciousness in the ring was compelling stuff. And his execution... I think you could justify him at 78 simply based on his execution. Of course it all went downhill quickly as his body crumbled, but he put out some memorable albums. Go Kid! Kick those detractors in the teeth.

 

 

 

77. Ravishing Rick Rude

 

Finished too high. Dig the Manny stuff against the Rock 'n' Roll Express, think his WWF work is a blackhole and am slightly amused by how overrated his 1992 has become. Make no bones about it, Rude was a good worker, but those rest holds.... He has to be a candidate for best worker who was absolute shit on the mat.

 

 

 

76. Hiroshi Hase

 

Versatile worker. Could work a number of different styles. Wasn't really a master at any of them but I think people refer to his accessibility its in large part due to his versatility. Underrated bleeder. Possibly his biggest strength since he sold better when he bladed. Quite an erratic seller actually. Could be really good when the match called for it and at other times lousy. Disappointing on the mat. That remains his biggest sin for me. Had a couple of really great matches but not as many as quite a few folks who fell outside the top 100. His part-time All Japan gig was boring.

 

 

 

75. Hulk Hogan

 

A few years back I got into watching old Hogan matches. I enjoyed a great many of them especially the blood feuds and the hot sprints. But honest to God, watching Hogan is like staying home from work sick and getting into the daytime soaps. If you keep watching them for long enough at least one of the storylines is gonna get you hooked. You'll come back for more all right, and by the end of the week you might even convince yourself that they're really well written, but if you have any sense you'll go back to work the following week and forget the whole thing ever happened. Apologies to Hogan and soap fans.

 

 

 

74. Atlantis

 

Went higher than I was expecting, I guess because of the Anniversary show stuff from recent years. I only really care for a slither of his long career (from '88-00 or so) and mostly disregard the rest. Matt probably has a better picture of him than I do (at least from 2000 onward, I'm not sure how much prime Atlantis he's seen.) Great trios worker, especially in the difficult and often quite demanding position of being the glue that holds the tecnico side together. Underrated mat worker. Panther's best opponent. The 8/91 match is still the most pure lucha match I've seen and a thing of impeccable beauty. Love the '97 bout as well. Overrated apuesta match worker and not as good at brawling trios as regular ones. Highly disappointing during the dark yeas when everyone jumped to AAA. Casas and Dandy pretty much ruled the roost during that period and Atlantis pottered about doing jack shit. The Mano Negra feud still makes me forlorn. I love Mano Negra, why couldn't that have been better? If I'd been booking CMLL in those years, you would have seen shit like Brazo de Oro vs. Atlantis in a class title match and a host of other fantasy booking. Love watching him work with Emilio even if only one of their singles matches knocked my socks off. Their trios work together is lucha heaven. Still can't figure out why he leaves Dylan so cold.

 

 

 

73. Chris Jericho

 

Worst pick so far. I'm prepared to believe that his 2008-09 run is the peak of his career because his 90s stuff holds up about as well as his look from that era. Easily the worst of the workrate heroes. Somehow he managed to ride on Benoit, Guerrero and Malenko's coattails and we ate it up because WCW was on a roll. Like most folks I dug his shtick in '98, which was similar to what Foley was doing at the time, and rallied behind him during the era where everyone wanted him freed from his WCW contract. Jericho should be working against Goldberg on PPV! Vince would know what to do with him! WWF would make him a star! How naive we were. Like everyone else, I was super excited when he made his debut on RAW and had that promo duel with The Rock. That was fresh at the time. Then he started having matches and it was obvious that this guy couldn't really work. At least not the WWF house style. His fans will fill in the rest because I gave up watching WWF after the shitty, shitty Jericho vs. Benoit feud. God that was atrocious.

 

I love your analogies. The Hogan soap opera one is amazing!

[soup23]

Really happy with the 100+ jump for Yuki, a brilliant technician.

[GOTNW]

Wrestlers like Ishikawa are a big reason why I'd like to see breakdowns, can't imagine he isn't at least top 50 among people who considered Bati-Bati. A brilliant talent.

[KB8]

Had Ishikawa top 20, right next to Ikeda. Jumping a hundred spots up the list is pretty damn good going.

 

Tajiri, Santana, Rude, Atlantis and Togo were all on my list as well. I watched the Tito/Valentine feud again to see where I'd rank Greg and I wound up binging a ton of Tito and eventually ranking him higher than Valentine (though not by much). Rude obviously isn't a longevity candidate and is probably too high, but I still think his run in '92 is outstanding. Greatest sell of an atomic drop in history, and I always love the spots where he'll do his gyrating hips bit while selling his tailbone or ribs or back, or in some cases his arm by only putting one hand on his head. He may be hurt, but he WILL gyrate. The Beach Blast match with Steamboat is also an absolute all-timer.

[Childs]

Look at Ishikawa's average ranking--very telling as to how highly regarded he is among people who've spent time with the style. Would that he could find Kurt Angle somewhere and drill him in the chin with a straight right.

[El-P]

Ishikawa is like Ikeda, a victim of me never diving deep into Battlarts. I had other priorities at that time, and I never got back into it later on. It's pretty much a given I would have rated both of them.

[Danish Dynamite]

Look at Ishikawa's average ranking--very telling as to how highly regarded he is among people who've spent time with the style. Would that he could find Kurt Angle somewhere and drill him in the chin with a straight right.

 

Very good point about Ishikawa and the style. I have not seen anywhere near enough of him to fairly rank him, and the style is not really my cup of mocca. But I think I could get into it in time, and I totally see that he should rank very high, if you get the style and have seen a lot of him. Spot on about his average ranking.

[goodhelmet]

My 31-40 list is dropping like flies.

 

31. Yuki Ishikawa

32. Daisuke Ikeda

36. Dick Togo

37. Blue Panther

38. Villano III

39. Atlantis

40. Pirata Morgan

Farewell Japanese and Lucha dudes.

[Grimmas]

 

My 31-40 list is dropping like flies.

 

31. Yuki Ishikawa

32. Daisuke Ikeda

36. Dick Togo

37. Blue Panther

38. Villano III

39. Atlantis

40. Pirata Morgan

Farewell Japanese and Lucha dudes.

 

I just revealed the next name. Probably another guy off your list.

[goodhelmet]

You clearly have me confused with someone else.

[Grimmas]

You clearly have me confused with someone else.

Shocked to see you not have the high vote on Angle. Shocked.

[Matt D]

Better than Blue Panther, folks. The unruly horde has spoken.

[stunning_grover]

I had Brian Pillman at #59. I'm happy with his ranking. If this was a favourite wrestlers list, he would be even higher on my list.

 

I had Dick Togo at #12 (high vote). He's someone who's work I've learned to appreciate more and more over the years.

 

 

Random thought... I wonder if Shinjiro Ohtani will rank anywhere near his 2006 final ranking of #27 this time around...

[Bierschwale]

Look at Ishikawa's average ranking--very telling as to how highly regarded he is among people who've spent time with the style. Would that he could find Kurt Angle somewhere and drill him in the chin with a straight right.

 

Just thought again of Dylan's "Otsuka's like Kurt Angle but actually good". Angle-Ishikawa probably would have been the former's best match ever, right?

[jackwebb]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmsqmvfAYVU

[jaedmc]

My favorite work from Kurt Angle's later years is when he was the Hot Tag. AJ Styles or whoever would do all the selling and then they'd tag in Angle who'd just wrecking ball everyone. It was a lot of fun and kept Angle from his more frustrating tendencies. I could watch him be Jim Neidhart all day.

[Woof]

Angle finaly dropped. Is it safe to come back to the thread now? Asking for a friend.

[Bierschwale]

Said this on Twitter, but Panther's drop is mystifying. Doesn't he have a better case now than in '06? Footage explosion and all for others but he still had his signature career MOTDC after 2006.

[goc]

Angle finaly dropped. Is it safe to come back to the thread now? Asking for a friend.

If your friend is going to wax poetic about the "greatness" of Kurt Angle then tell him no.

 

I'm at least glad Angle didn't make the top 50.

 

Said this on Twitter, but Panther's drop is mystifying. Doesn't he have a better case now than in '06? Footage explosion and all for others but he still had his signature career MOTDC after 2006.

More voters seems to have meant a lesser percentage of the overall voters voting for lucha guys.