Woof Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 Harley goes over well with folks like me who 1) like their wrestling to have a more "serious" edge and 2) have an affinity for guys like Harley because we grew up in a small Midwestern town and knew several people who drank too much beer, drove their cars too fast, weren't chiseled muscleheads, but would fight you to the death at the drop of a hat, sometimes for no apparent reason. Ironically, whenever I think of Harley two things immediately spring to mind: 1) the purple "King" get-up from his WWF run; 2) his ridiculous teeter-totter spot, neither of which make me think "serious". Beyond that though, yeah, he comes across as one of those legit badass dudes who would fuck you up for asking him too many questions about his tattoo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Casebolt Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 I had Brisco in or near my top ten. I'm legit stunned not to be the high voter there, but he's neck and neck with Billy Robinson for my favorite wrestler of the 70s. Harley I never even considered. Can't stand his prime work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 He's that friend who sometimes drinks too much and you need to send him home in cab. But you always want that guy at the bar because its never dull. That might be the most brilliant explanation for Angle that I've ever read. Tip 'o the cap to you, sir. Sounds like a great candidate for someone's favorite wrestler. Not quite sure what he's doing here, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 He's that friend who sometimes drinks too much and you need to send him home in cab. But you always want that guy at the bar because its never dull. That might be the most brilliant explanation for Angle that I've ever read. Tip 'o the cap to you, sir. Sounds like a great candidate for someone's favorite wrestler. Not quite sure what he's doing here, though. To be fair that could describe Terry Funk or Dick Murdoch just as easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cross Face Chicken Wing Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 He's that friend who sometimes drinks too much and you need to send him home in cab. But you always want that guy at the bar because its never dull. That might be the most brilliant explanation for Angle that I've ever read. Tip 'o the cap to you, sir. Sounds like a great candidate for someone's favorite wrestler. Not quite sure what he's doing here, though. To be fair that could describe Terry Funk or Dick Murdoch just as easily. Funk or Murdoch ain't going home in a cab. They'd either drive themselves home or get hauled into the local jail to sleep it off following a brawl with the entire town's police force. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Russian Daydream Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 I wish I had time to follow this thread more closely! I log on in the evening and there's just so much to read! It's kind of cool seeing Angle and Jack Brisco coming up next to each other as both built their careers off the back of being notability successful amateurs. I'm sure Angle himself sees himself as a modern day Brisco and he certainly could have been if he'd slowed down and been a bit smarter. I had both on my list. I think Angle deserves to be there, despite what many vocal posters here say. His 'great' matches don't really hold up to much scrutiny these days but he had a lot of memorable performances that greatly stood out at the time. I have to say, from 2000-2006 I found him tremendous fun. I guess he's a bit like a band that came on the radio when you were young and you thought they were so cool, but now look back and just don't really get it any more. What I would also say is that he deserves some credit for being one of the guys who helped bring 'wrestling' as opposed to 'walk about brawling' back to the main event WWF scene. I've maybe soured on him over the years but I can't ignore his influence or forget how much he was appreciated at the time. Brisco I have on my list despite only having seen a relatively small sample of his work. I've just found him to be so good in that sample that he simply must belong here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victory Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 Brisco seems great, just not enough footage to justify making this sort of list for me. I also can't go by live stuff either as he never wrestled in my area that I'm aware of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 He's that friend who sometimes drinks too much and you need to send him home in cab. But you always want that guy at the bar because its never dull. That might be the most brilliant explanation for Angle that I've ever read. Tip 'o the cap to you, sir. Sounds like a great candidate for someone's favorite wrestler. Not quite sure what he's doing here, though. To be fair that could describe Terry Funk or Dick Murdoch just as easily. Funk or Murdoch ain't going home in a cab. They'd either drive themselves home or get hauled into the local jail to sleep it off following a brawl with the entire town's police force. Funk would get out of the jail stay too, because he'd be selling so fucking well that the cops would be completely fooled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timbo Slice Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 I'm seeing a lot of Angle talk with blanket adjectives about him being "impressive" and "memorable" without much deep dives, which is basically the most Kurt Angle description of Kurt Angle ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danish Dynamite Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 69: Blue Panther. My #77. Whoever said somewhere in this thread, that he is someone who is initially impressive, but the more lucha you see, he starts to drop slightly, expressed my thoughts. I'm not a lucha expert at all, but I quickly got into Panther. Now the initial enthusiasm has worn off a little. Still really like him, but he probably dropped ten spots the last months, and I don't quite know if that will continue in the future. 68: Kurt Angle. Oh, well. Really not as down on him as a lot here (not all, he was on 64 ballots after all...), but he's also not close to my list. Liked his first 2-3 years quite a bit. 67: Jack Brisco. My highest drop so far, I had him at #40. I think that's as high as the amount of footage I've had access to can take him. Have a feeling he'll rise with every new match I can get my hands on. Don't know what the limit might be on him, but I could easily see him 10-15 spots higher for me. I'm still really impressed and pleased he ended up as high as 67. 41 of my guys are gone with 59 still to go. So still 8 guys I haven't ranked, that still haven't dropped. Damn this reveal is fun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 Brisco did insanely well. Like how on earth did that happen? People have been saying that they didn't include certain guys because "they couldn't dive into them..." does Brisco even have 20 matches to dive into? Not that I don't like the guy, but he's never blown me away like other 70s workers. This is more than 20 matches: http://mmamania.futoka.jp/jackbrisco.html There are oddball things that are out there, but really haven't been complied, like Brisco's entire 1981 Carny footage from TV: 03/27/81 Abdullah The Butcher vs. Jack Brisco (2:44) 04/10/81 Jack Brisco vs. Jumbo Tsuruta (30:00 tl) 04/17/81 Giant Baba vs Jack Brisco (11:25) 04/23/81 Bruiser Brody vs Jack Brisco (3:50) 04/26/81 Dory Funk Jr. & Terry Funk vs Jack Brisco & Killer Brooks (23:32) 04/27/81 Jumbo Tsuruta & Terry Funk vs Jack Brisco & The Avenger (17:34) Dan has all of that in his Raijin tapes/dvds. Those are match times, so what aired on TV is going to be JIP. The two tag matches were put up by SKK before he got the ban hammer from Youtube. There are roughly 10 JWA/AJPW/NJPW matches from 1971-79. If the 04/27/79 Jack Brisco vs Tatsumi Fujinami and 05/04/79 Jack Brisco & Stan Hansen vs Antonio Inoki & Seiji Sakaguchi were JIP, it would have been very little as they don't stand out in my mind as being butchered massively. The others are all complete if I recall correctly. There are singles with Muraco, Piper, Flair and Lawler. There's a little WWF stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timbo Slice Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 Thought Mutoh might have been lower on the Top 100, but as I said in that quote, he's incredibly polarizing. If you are a big fan of his highs, you'll rate him highly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goodear Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 To make a wild claim based off nothing, Muta benefits greatly from the current a la cart style of watching wrestling where people only watch hyped stuff and skip the garbage. The wildly inconsistent do well in today's climate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 To make a wild claim based off nothing, Muta benefits greatly from the current a la cart style of watching wrestling where people only watch hyped stuff and skip the garbage. The wildly inconsistent do well in today's climate. I think that's part of it, but Muto also had the American run that is remembered pretty well. I wouldn't be surprised if we got some ballots with him as the only Japanese guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woof Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 I'm seeing a lot of Angle talk with blanket adjectives about him being "impressive" and "memorable" without much deep dives, which is basically the most Kurt Angle description of Kurt Angle ever. Here's your deep dive on notable Kurt Angle matches. 2000.02.27 WWF Chris Jericho vs Kurt Angle 2000.09.24 WWF Kurt Angle vs Triple H 2000.10.22 WWF Kurt Angle vs The Rock 2000.12.10 WWF Kurt Angle vs Rikishi vs The Rock vs Steve Austin vs Triple H vs The Undertaker [Hell In A Cell] 2001.01.21 WWF Kurt Angle vs Triple H 2001.02.25 WWF Kurt Angle vs The Rock 2001.04.01 WWF Chris Benoit vs Kurt Angle 2001.04.29 WWF Chris Benoit vs Kurt Angle [ultimate Submission Match] 2001.05.05 WWF Chris Benoit vs Kurt Angle [best of 3 Falls] 2001.05.20 WWF Chris Benoit vs Kurt Angle [best of 3 Falls/Multi Stipulation] 2001.06.11 WWF Chris Benoit vs Kurt Angle [steel Cage] 2001.06.24 WWF Kurt Angle vs Shane McMahon [street Fight] 2001.08.19 WWF Kurt Angle vs Steve Austin 2001.09.23 WWF Kurt Angle vs Steve Austin 2001.10.21 WWF Kurt Angle vs Rob Van Dam vs Steve Austin 2002.04.21 WWF Edge vs Kurt Angle 2002.05.19 WWE Edge vs Kurt Angle [Hair vs Hair] 2002.05.28 WWE Edge vs Kurt Angle [steel Cage] 2002.07.21 WWE Kurt Angle vs The Rock vs The Undertaker 2002.08.25 WWE Kurt Angle vs Rey Mysterio 2002.09.22 WWE Chris Benoit vs Kurt Angle 2002.09.24 WWE Chris Benoit vs Kurt Angle vs Rey Mysterio 2002.10.01 WWE Edge vs Kurt Angle 2002.10.15 WWE Chris Benoit/Kurt Angle vs Edge/Rey Mysterio 2002.10.20 WWE Chris Benoit/Kurt Angle vs Edge/Rey Mysterio 2002.10.26 WWE Chavo Guerrero Jr./Eddie Guerrero vs Chris Benoit/Kurt Angle 2002.11.05 WWE Chris Benoit/Kurt Angle vs Edge/Rey Mysterio [best of 3 Falls] 2002.11.17 WWE Chavo Guerrero Jr./Eddie Guerrero vs Chris Benoit/Kurt Angle vs Edge/Rey Mysterio [Elimination Match] 2002.12.03 WWE Chris Benoit vs Eddie Guerrero vs Edge vs Kurt Angle [Elimination Match] 2003.01.12 WWE Charlie Haas/Kurt Angle/Shelton Benjamin vs Chris Benoit/Edge [Handicap Match] 2003.01.19 WWE Chris Benoit vs Kurt Angle 2003.02.04 WWE Chris Benoit vs Kurt Angle 2003.02.23 WWE Brock Lesnar/Chris Benoit vs Charlie Haas/Kurt Angle/Shelton Benjamin [Handicap Match] 2003.03.30 WWE Brock Lesnar vs Kurt Angle 2003.07.27 WWE Big Show vs Brock Lesnar vs Kurt Angle 2003.08.24 WWE Brock Lesnar vs Kurt Angle 2003.09.02 WWE Kurt Angle vs The Undertaker 2003.09.16 WWE Brock Lesnar vs Kurt Angle [iron Man Match] 2003.10.19 WWE John Cena vs Kurt Angle 2004.03.14 WWE Eddie Guerrero vs Kurt Angle 2004.08.15 WWE Eddie Guerrero vs Kurt Angle 2005.04.03 WWE Kurt Angle vs Shawn Michaels 2005.04.12 WWE Eddie Guerrero vs Kurt Angle 2005.06.26 WWE Kurt Angle vs Shawn Michaels 2006.02.19 WWE Kurt Angle vs The Undertaker 2006.05.30 WWE Kurt Angle vs Rey Mysterio 2006.11.19 TNA Kurt Angle vs Samoa Joe 2006.12.10 TNA Kurt Angle vs Samoa Joe 2007.06.17 TNA AJ Styles vs Chris Harris vs Christian Cage vs Kurt Angle vs Samoa Joe [King Of The Mountain] 2008.01.04 NJPW Kurt Angle vs Yuji Nagata 2008.01.06 TNA Christian Cage vs Kurt Angle 2008.02.10 TNA Christian Cage vs Kurt Angle 2008.04.13 TNA Kurt Angle vs Samoa Joe [six Sides Of Steel] 2008.06.08 TNA AJ Styles vs Kurt Angle 2008.08.10 TNA AJ Styles vs Kurt Angle [Last Man Standing] 2008.10.12 TNA Jeff Jarrett vs Kurt Angle 2008.11.09 TNA Abyss vs Kurt Angle [Falls Count Anywhere] 2009.01.11 TNA Jeff Jarrett vs Kurt Angle [No DQ] 2009.06.21 TNA AJ Styles vs Jeff Jarrett vs Kurt Angle vs Mick Foley vs Samoa Joe [King Of The Mountain] 2009.09.20 TNA AJ Styles vs Hernandez vs Kurt Angle vs Matt Morgan vs Sting 2009.10.06 TNA AJ Styles vs Kurt Angle 2009.10.18 TNA Kurt Angle vs Matt Morgan 2009.11.15 TNA Desmond Wolfe vs Kurt Angle 2009.12.20 TNA Desmond Wolfe vs Kurt Angle [Three Degrees Of Pain] 2010.01.04 TNA AJ Styles vs Kurt Angle 2010.01.17 TNA AJ Styles vs Kurt Angle 2010.04.18 TNA Kurt Angle vs Mr. Anderson [steel Cage] 2010.06.13 TNA Kaz vs Kurt Angle 2010.09.05 TNA Jeff Hardy vs Kurt Angle 2010.10.10 TNA Jeff Hardy vs Kurt Angle vs Mr. Anderson 2011.02.13 TNA Jeff Jarrett vs Kurt Angle 2011.04.17 TNA Jeff Jarrett vs Kurt Angle [best of 3 Falls Ultra-Male Rules] 2012.05.13 TNA AJ Styles vs Kurt Angle 2012.06.10 TNA AJ Styles/Kurt Angle vs Christopher Daniels/Kazarian 2012.07.08 TNA Kurt Angle vs Samoa Joe 2012.09.09 TNA AJ Styles/Kurt Angle vs Christopher Daniels/Kazarian 2012.10.14 TNA AJ Styles/Kurt Angle vs Chavo Guerrero/Hernandez vs Christopher Daniels/Kazarian 2013.06.02 TNA AJ Styles vs Kurt Angle 2013.10.24 TNA Bobby Roode vs Kurt Angle 2015.03.20 TNA Kurt Angle vs Lashley You guys can pick 'em apart all you want, but the dude has had more than his fair share of excellent matches. The fact that your mileage may vary in regards to his style/structure doesn't change the fact that for those of us who enjoy his work he has a lengthy and impressive resume. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 To make a wild claim based off nothing, Muta benefits greatly from the current a la cart style of watching wrestling where people only watch hyped stuff and skip the garbage. The wildly inconsistent do well in today's climate. I think that's part of it, but Muto also had the American run that is remembered pretty well. I wouldn't be surprised if we got some ballots with him as the only Japanese guy. I can't imagine something like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert S Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 To make a wild claim based off nothing, Muta benefits greatly from the current a la cart style of watching wrestling where people only watch hyped stuff and skip the garbage. The wildly inconsistent do well in today's climate. I think that's part of it, but Muto also had the American run that is remembered pretty well. I wouldn't be surprised if we got some ballots with him as the only Japanese guy. I would believe that being true in 2002 or maybe 2006 but in 2016? I mean on the one hand his big American run is more than 25 years ago and on the other hand Japanese stuff is so much easier to get (i.e. less "elite") than it used to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted April 21, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 Woof, I think a LOT of those matches are just beyound awful. For example, I really really hate that RR03 match with Benoit. Just a horrible match. I don't need to deep dive into Angle, I watched it live. I really liked him from 2000-2002ish. At some point it just all fell apart for him. Probably around the time he wasn't being lead through matches anymore and he was gaining enough cred to captain matches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 That Kennedy steel cage match is so tremendously bad too. Tremendously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danish Dynamite Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 I really considered Muta. Had primarily seen the highly recommended matches and major parts of his 80's US run. Liked that a good bit. Then I heard many argue he was inconsistent, so over the last 18 months I've tried to broaden my viewing of him. Too much didn't hold the same high level sadly. He just missed the list for me. I do think there's something to the point that "scratch the surface and watch the best stuff from a guy only" helps Muta more than the average guy, and doing the deep dive on him has a tendency to do the opposite. Sadly. But I'd actually forgotten that he hadn't dropped yet, so my main feeling at seeing him pop up now, is that I actually want to go back and watch his good stuff :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woof Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 Woof, I think a LOT of those matches are just beyound awful. For example, I really really hate that RR03 match with Benoit. Just a horrible match. I don't need to deep dive into Angle, I watched it live. I really liked him from 2000-2002ish. At some point it just all fell apart for him. Probably around the time he wasn't being lead through matches anymore and he was gaining enough cred to captain matches. No, the Steiner-HHH match that preceded Angle-Benoit RR03 was a horrible match. I love the Benoit-Angle match. One of my all-time faves. I didn't post that list to try and convince people who hate Angle to change their mind. I posted it to answer the call from those who seem to think those of us who like him are pulling his career out of thin air. You don't have to agree that they're good matches. I'm not trying to change your minds. I'm just trying to get some acknowledgement that even though we may have a different take on the guy mine isn't built out of nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danish Dynamite Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 Woof, I think a LOT of those matches are just beyound awful. For example, I really really hate that RR03 match with Benoit. Just a horrible match. I don't need to deep dive into Angle, I watched it live. I really liked him from 2000-2002ish. At some point it just all fell apart for him. Probably around the time he wasn't being lead through matches anymore and he was gaining enough cred to captain matches. No, the Steiner-HHH match that preceded Angle-Benoit RR03 was a horrible match. I love the Benoit-Angle match. One of my all-time faves. I didn't post that list to try and convince people who hate Angle to change their mind. I posted it to answer the call from those who seem to think those of us who like him are pulling his career out of thin air. You don't have to agree that they're good matches. I'm not trying to change your minds. I'm just trying to get some acknowledgement that even though we may have a different take on the guy mine isn't built out of nothing. Your case definitely isn't built on nothing. I'm probably somewhere in between most of the board on Angle. Not as down on him as many. Not as high as many. But he definitely has a case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danish Dynamite Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 Ohtani was close for me. Not close enough though. My best argument for that is the short period I found him really great. But he was so good at that time... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 Woof, I think a LOT of those matches are just beyound awful. For example, I really really hate that RR03 match with Benoit. Just a horrible match. I don't need to deep dive into Angle, I watched it live. I really liked him from 2000-2002ish. At some point it just all fell apart for him. Probably around the time he wasn't being lead through matches anymore and he was gaining enough cred to captain matches. No, the Steiner-HHH match that preceded Angle-Benoit RR03 was a horrible match. I love the Benoit-Angle match. One of my all-time faves. I didn't post that list to try and convince people who hate Angle to change their mind. I posted it to answer the call from those who seem to think those of us who like him are pulling his career out of thin air. You don't have to agree that they're good matches. I'm not trying to change your minds. I'm just trying to get some acknowledgement that even though we may have a different take on the guy mine isn't built out of nothing. Exactly. I completely see what the issues with him are and understand why he may not rank for people because of them, but would think even his biggest detractors can acknowledge it may not have been an issue every single time he stepped into the ring. Mileage will vary based on your preferences, but his flaws are not such that they render him trash. Too many things he did well, even and especially on nights when his limitations got the best of them. Almost the antithesis of a worker prone to laziness. He couldn't help but offer something interesting even in a trainwreck scenario. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTNW Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 Smarkshoice: 27. Shinjiro Ohtani – 2,409 points - 39 votes - VHB This Is Workrate #12 65 - Shinjiro Ohtani Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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