Reactions to the List: 100-51

[cad]

Wanted to jump back to say a quick word on Atlantis. He was my highest ranked luchador and I don't really get why others don't see him on the same tier with Santo, Dandy, and Casas. He's got the footage and the longevity to make a case. His matches with Panther are amongst the best in lucha history, and the Emilio and Villano feuds are just a level below. Also a good selection of post-prime matches that only add to his case. Although outside of the Villano III match, he doesn't have the volume of bloody, violent apuesta matches of someone like Dandy or Santo. That probably hurts him relative to them and admittedly the mask matches against Mano Negra and Kung Fu weren't very memorable. But on the other hand I think it's a pretty difficult thing to pull off being a classic, masked technico for most of the prime of one's career and Atlantis achieved that probably better than anyone else.

Why did you put him above Hijo del Santo? That seems like the easiest comparison and I don't see how you get Atlantis there. Not being dismissive (although I do disagree), I genuinely would like to hear why.

 

The only point in your post I disagree with actually is about the matches with Blue Panther. I'd have them closer to ****, not up there with the best in history. The last time I watched the 1991 match I was surprised by how shoddy some of the third fall work was.

[Cross Face Chicken Wing]

Kamala has more good matches than Nash.

Ding ding ding! Best post of the GWE project!

[Ricky Jackson]

 

Kamala has more good matches than Nash.

Ding ding ding! Best post of the GWE project!

 

 

Let's celebrate the greatness of some of the Greatest Wrestlers Ever! Dec 86 and Jan 87 MSG

 

 

[Ricky Jackson]

Plus one more for good measure, featuring Roddy Piper!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htQA9UvB304

[jdw]

I don't recall ever seeing a Hansen match that would work against him. He had disappointing matches against some good/great workers, though not in the sense that they were disappointing because they were outright bad. In the random AJPW stuff that comes up he always looks good and I don't recall going through any AWA footage where I thought he underwhelmed

 

Edit: I responded, but I'm not ready to say where I rated Hansen yet.

 

The October 1993 match with Misawa is disappointing and outright bad, though it's hard to put a finger on why it's outright bad. It kind of lays there, it doesn't click, the crowd doesn't give two shits about it after they already wrestled 3 times in the year, and... it just doesn't work.

 

Hansen has matches like that from time to time. So do other guys. There are nights when the shit doesn't work.

 

The following series, Hansen was off the charts in the Tag League. So shit happens sometimes.

[goc]

Don't forget Kamala's 2 trios matches from Mexico!

[Matt D]

To be fair, Nash didn't have the chances that Kamala had. What if Nash was in early 1980s Memphis or able to wrestle Andre in a cage? What if he wrestled Magnum TA in a big outdoor stadium? We really have to factor in opportunity.

[ohtani's jacket]

82. Steve Williams

 

Williams isn't the first guy I'd think of if I were compiling a list, but he definitely had an interesting career. You've got his early territory work that's being reevaluated with the Houston footage, the MVC years that people seem torn on and the run of great All Japan matches. I personally think his 7/94 match with Misawa is one of Misawa's masterpieces and the 1994 Champion Carnival final is one of Kawada's best as well. He also had the run with Johnny Ace and pretty much supplanted Stan Hansen as the company's top gaijin ace. I remember really enjoying the MVC's WCW run during the WCW Smarkschoice poll but haven't had the time or inclination to revisit it. I didn't like their All Japan stuff the last time I ran through it. He's a guy I'm predisposed toward liking because of his look and his amateur background. I get a bit disappointed when he's not the wrestling machine I want him to be, so I don't think his territory work would do much for me assuming that he most brawls. Not a bad pick.

 

 

 

81. Yoshihiro Tajiri

 

Don't understand the groundswell of support this guy gets. Maybe I need to watch his ECW stuff. For some reason I can never separate him and Dick Togo in my mind and I always end thinking Togo is better. Watched a bunch of his matches against Mysterio during this project and they topped out at *** maximum. Just seems like more of a decent hand than top 100 all-time, but I could change my tune if I watched more.

 

 

 

80. Tito Santana

 

I love Tito Santana. I mean I really love me some Tito Santana. Steamboat, Martel, Hennig, whomever you wanna name, it's Tito Santana all day long. But I still maintain that he doesn't have as many good matches as a worker that talented should have. And not because he worked in New York instead of drifting around the territories. In an ideal world, you'd have an early 80s WWF card where you had a strong Backlund match on top and an excellent Tito Santana match on the undercard on every single billing, but it just didn't happen.

 

 

 

79. Terry Gordy

 

Never really got into Gordy in any way, shape or form. He's in plenty of tag matches I dug, but I'd have to go back and watch the Killer Khan match to see whether this placing is anything more than "okay, Gordy."

 

 

 

78. Dynamite Kid

 

So maligned it's become ridiculous. One of the best teenage talents I've ever seen. If he'd stayed in England he would have been on par with Marty Jones. His match against Jones in '83 is one of my all-time favourite WoS bouts. I love early Finlay but even early Finlay is a watered down version of DK at that time. It was mostly about attitude w/ DK. He looked like an asshole and wrestled like one. Whether that was because he had a chip on his shoulder, a Napoleon complex or he just a shit is fun to speculate, but his football hooligan look and his viciousness in the ring was compelling stuff. And his execution... I think you could justify him at 78 simply based on his execution. Of course it all went downhill quickly as his body crumbled, but he put out some memorable albums. Go Kid! Kick those detractors in the teeth.

 

 

 

77. Ravishing Rick Rude

 

Finished too high. Dig the Manny stuff against the Rock 'n' Roll Express, think his WWF work is a blackhole and am slightly amused by how overrated his 1992 has become. Make no bones about it, Rude was a good worker, but those rest holds.... He has to be a candidate for best worker who was absolute shit on the mat.

 

 

 

76. Hiroshi Hase

 

Versatile worker. Could work a number of different styles. Wasn't really a master at any of them but I think people refer to his accessibility its in large part due to his versatility. Underrated bleeder. Possibly his biggest strength since he sold better when he bladed. Quite an erratic seller actually. Could be really good when the match called for it and at other times lousy. Disappointing on the mat. That remains his biggest sin for me. Had a couple of really great matches but not as many as quite a few folks who fell outside the top 100. His part-time All Japan gig was boring.

 

 

 

75. Hulk Hogan

 

A few years back I got into watching old Hogan matches. I enjoyed a great many of them especially the blood feuds and the hot sprints. But honest to God, watching Hogan is like staying home from work sick and getting into the daytime soaps. If you keep watching them for long enough at least one of the storylines is gonna get you hooked. You'll come back for more all right, and by the end of the week you might even convince yourself that they're really well written, but if you have any sense you'll go back to work the following week and forget the whole thing ever happened. Apologies to Hogan and soap fans.

 

 

 

74. Atlantis

 

Went higher than I was expecting, I guess because of the Anniversary show stuff from recent years. I only really care for a slither of his long career (from '88-00 or so) and mostly disregard the rest. Matt probably has a better picture of him than I do (at least from 2000 onward, I'm not sure how much prime Atlantis he's seen.) Great trios worker, especially in the difficult and often quite demanding position of being the glue that holds the tecnico side together. Underrated mat worker. Panther's best opponent. The 8/91 match is still the most pure lucha match I've seen and a thing of impeccable beauty. Love the '97 bout as well. Overrated apuesta match worker and not as good at brawling trios as regular ones. Highly disappointing during the dark yeas when everyone jumped to AAA. Casas and Dandy pretty much ruled the roost during that period and Atlantis pottered about doing jack shit. The Mano Negra feud still makes me forlorn. I love Mano Negra, why couldn't that have been better? If I'd been booking CMLL in those years, you would have seen shit like Brazo de Oro vs. Atlantis in a class title match and a host of other fantasy booking. Love watching him work with Emilio even if only one of their singles matches knocked my socks off. Their trios work together is lucha heaven. Still can't figure out why he leaves Dylan so cold.

 

 

 

73. Chris Jericho

 

Worst pick so far. I'm prepared to believe that his 2008-09 run is the peak of his career because his 90s stuff holds up about as well as his look from that era. Easily the worst of the workrate heroes. Somehow he managed to ride on Benoit, Guerrero and Malenko's coattails and we ate it up because WCW was on a roll. Like most folks I dug his shtick in '98, which was similar to what Foley was doing at the time, and rallied behind him during the era where everyone wanted him freed from his WCW contract. Jericho should be working against Goldberg on PPV! Vince would know what to do with him! WWF would make him a star! How naive we were. Like everyone else, I was super excited when he made his debut on RAW and had that promo duel with The Rock. That was fresh at the time. Then he started having matches and it was obvious that this guy couldn't really work. At least not the WWF house style. His fans will fill in the rest because I gave up watching WWF after the shitty, shitty Jericho vs. Benoit feud. God that was atrocious.

[GOTNW]

Glad Dick Togo's placement improved. I imagine he would have done even better if this had been done just after his faux retirement. I couldn't rank him very high because I'm not sure how much substance there is between his two great runs but I'll try to fill those gaps in the next ten years. He was a special talent.

[Matt D]

I'm contractually obligated to watch a lot of matches for anyone SC has done Complete and Accurates for. I'm looking forward to getting to Dick Togo.

[jdw]

 

Hogan was so charismatic in the ring that he redefined what a wrestling star could be.

 

This isn't the 'Most Influential Wrestler Ever' list though. Elvis Presley redefined what a rock star could be but his albums don't stand up next to Revolver or Blue or Blood On The Tracks or Dark Side Of The Moon.

 

 

Elvis was a singles guy, not an album guy. His best singles hold up better *as singles* than the singles off of Revolver, Blue, Blood on the Tracks and Dark Side of the Moon. That's coming from someone who is a Beatlemaniac and will listen to Blue and Blood on the Tracks more in a year than I will listen to all of Elvis' albums combined over the past 30 years.

[Shrike02]

If Brian Pillman has a #3 vote, it also follows he has a top 10 vote.

[Jimmy Redman]

I thought the first couple rollouts would blow my list apart but going into the Top 70, I still have 54 guys in play. Turns out I'm not as wacky as I thought.

 

I have finally lost a guy from my Top 25 though.

[jdw]

 

 

Hogan was so charismatic in the ring that he redefined what a wrestling star could be.

 

This isn't the 'Most Influential Wrestler Ever' list though. Elvis Presley redefined what a rock star could be but his albums don't stand up next to Revolver or Blue or Blood On The Tracks or Dark Side Of The Moon.

 

Hogan is a better wrestler than Elvis was a musician though.

 

 

Elvis' instrument was his voice and his showmanship.

 

One could argue that Hogan was wrestling equiv of Elvis in showmanship. But I'd be hard pressed to see anything in Hogan's "work" that matches Elvis' voice. To go to the "that's coming from" well again, I'm the one who has pimped Hogan as a very effective worker since the last GWE and the WWF/WWE Matches poll, much to people's annoyance.

 

Hogan is Hogan, Elvis is Elvis. Taking a piss on each is a bit of a waste.

[Cap]

 

I am so glad Pillman finished ahead of Jericho.

Looking at it dispassionately, it's hard to see how Pillman had a better career than Jericho.

 

We've seen some very short peaks drop today -- Rude at the extreme end, but Pillman doesn't have that many more years. They both made my list though, Rude at #83 and Pillman at #96.

 

Pillman lacking those signiture 4.75 or 5 star matches. Although he has a lot of quality in WCW.

 

I am not sure Pillman had the better career. Injuries made sure that really isn't that much of a question, but the positioning still makes me somewhat happy. Jericho is a guy that doesn't hold up as well to me. Part of that might be the ebbs and flows of my interests and part of it is certainly his recent run souring me on him a bit, but even going back to some of the higher points I haven't enjoyed him as much in the last year or so. Don't get me wrong, I still like Jericho. I don't think he is shit or anything. His stock is lowering in my estimation as I don't think what he does holds up to the other guys in his various "classes" (the folks he gets lumped in with) quite as well. Pillman on the other hand is a guy I grow to like more over time. One of the things I value a lot is a charicter coming alive in the match itself, in how it is worked and laid out and pillman did that well later in his career, so I even find some of his lesser work to be a lot of fun and really good for what it was supposed to accomplish. I also really value creativity and people who think outside the box, get innovative, and stay ahead of the curve. Another Pillman trait. I am just happy to see the skills he had being noticed.

 

You are right, their careers don't really compare by virtually any measure we might use to objectively parse out "greatest". However, this project is telling us lots of things, "objectively greatest wrestler" clearly isn't one of them. Neither would be on my list probably, I am just happy Pillman beat him out here.

[Microstatistics]

Glad Hase and Atlantis made it comfortably. I underrated Hase on my list, had him at around 60 when it should have been closer to 45. Great skill + great character work and charisma. Jvk is not wrong in raving about him. Atlantis is one of the all time great technicos with ridiculous longevity.

[jpchicago23]

And my boy Angle survives another day.... in other news,Togo was around this spot on my list and I have to seek out that Togo v Hero match. That sounds awesome.

[Grimmas]

If Brian Pillman has a #3 vote, it also follows he has a top 10 vote.

I might have labelled it weird... top 10 vote means (4-10) vote.

[jdw]

 

Come on El P, you can badmouth him for a lot of things, but saying Hogan was a "terrible babyface" is like saying Charlie Chaplin was a terrible comedian.

 

No. it's been well established that Hogan kayfabe character was an asshole mistreating his friends and a whiny egomaniac bitch. There's a whole thread about this. Plus he was cheating his ass off and using shitty heel tactics (like scratching his opponent's back) despite being a colossus. It was so easy to agree with Jesse Ventura on color when he was pointing out how awful Hogan really was.

 

 

That was a fucking great thread.

[jdw]

I love that Hogan represents the Reagen-era 80s but Ric Flair was the true disciple of Reagan.

 

 

The thread got fun over these pages.

[Shrike02]

 

If Brian Pillman has a #3 vote, it also follows he has a top 10 vote.

I might have labelled it weird... top 10 vote means (4-10) vote.

 

 

Ah. Yes, it's misleading. One category is a subset of the other. Something to revise for 2026.

[Goodear]

Pillman doesn't have Jericho's lows or his flaws, certainly. Jericho might have had the better career but Pillman was the better wrestler.

 

Pillman's biggest flaw was that he didn't have the tools to work heel effectively as a single. Obviously he didn't have the chance to show what he could do as he got older and less mobile but I don't see any evidence that he would have been able to adapt to diminished physical condition as his final run on his ankle was lackluster.

[Grimmas]

Dick Togo is someone that I need to watch again. Outside of M-Pro I haven't seen anything.

[Goodear]

 

 

Come on El P, you can badmouth him for a lot of things, but saying Hogan was a "terrible babyface" is like saying Charlie Chaplin was a terrible comedian.

 

No. it's been well established that Hogan kayfabe character was an asshole mistreating his friends and a whiny egomaniac bitch. There's a whole thread about this. Plus he was cheating his ass off and using shitty heel tactics (like scratching his opponent's back) despite being a colossus. It was so easy to agree with Jesse Ventura on color when he was pointing out how awful Hogan really was.

 

 

That was a fucking great thread.

 

 

I think it was worth noting that by the time someone got to Hogan, they had already brutalized Koko B. Ware and Hacksaw Duggan by that point. I think it was part of Hogan's act that his was the retribution for that behavior and he didn't sit back on his haunches waiting to get thumbed in the eye before he would fire back in kind.

[Matt D]

 

Pillman doesn't have Jericho's lows or his flaws, certainly. Jericho might have had the better career but Pillman was the better wrestler.

 

Pillman's biggest flaw was that he didn't have the tools to work heel effectively as a single. Obviously he didn't have the chance to show what he could do as he got older and less mobile but I don't see any evidence that he would have been able to adapt to diminished physical condition as his final run on his ankle was lackluster.

 

It's really hard to see anything in that final run in 97, but I actually think he would have been super effective in 3 minute Raw matches as a heel getting a ton of heat and sort of Eddie Gilberting it up with all the tricks. You can kind of see some of it in something like this.

 

 

Where he gets by with his heat on the way to the ring, a bit of dodging, and flurries of intensity (and a chinlock but you know). I think he would have been the most entertaining guy in the nothing matches of the next two years following. At that point, he, weirdly enough, had the exact skillset needed for the bullshit crash TV matches we were about to get.