Reactions to the List: 100-51

[Matt D]

Angle down, let's move on to Michaels?

[goodhelmet]

Better than Blue Panther, folks. The unruly horde has spoken.

 

Not better... just different.

[Yo-Yo's Roomie]

Said this on Twitter, but Panther's drop is mystifying. Doesn't he have a better case now than in '06? Footage explosion and all for others but he still had his signature career MOTDC after 2006.

 

Whereas Angle moved up. Different group of voters, I suppose, is the obvious explanation.

[ElHijodeGorgeousGeorge]

It is definitely crazy that Panther was lower than Angle. Just shows a bizarre mixture of voters.

[Matt D]

Just spoke about this on the next two hours we did, but I think the traditional iconic image of Blue Panther doesn't quite hold up. On the other hand, I think what we have had since 06 (and OTHER things we see before that in new or relooked at footage) is actually superior in a lot of ways to the traditional iconic image of Blue Panther. That's what people were voting for back in 06 though, I think, an"idea" of Blue Panther.

[Grimmas]

1 more ballot for Panther, Angle had 1 more point overall.

 

The average vote was within 0.41 of each other.

 

The big difference is the two three place votes for Angle.

[MoS]

It's crazy that Angle has actually climbed spots from 2006. I would have thought his fandom would have been at its peak ten years ago.

 

Now, hopefully Shawn falls soon as well.

[Bierschwale]

Yeah but Angle theoretically added to his career, just not to the same extent unless you are Meltzer-level crazy for his TNA tenure. It really is the different voters, of course.

[Jetlag]

 

Look at Ishikawa's average ranking--very telling as to how highly regarded he is among people who've spent time with the style. Would that he could find Kurt Angle somewhere and drill him in the chin with a straight right.

 

Just thought again of Dylan's "Otsuka's like Kurt Angle but actually good". Angle-Ishikawa probably would have been the former's best match ever, right?

 

Please stop that. Otsuka and Angle have nothing to do with eachother aside from being bald guys in singlets. They even suplex people in different ways. I imagine Ishikawa vs. Angle would've been like Ishikawa vs. Sekimoto.

 

 

Just spoke about this on the next two hours we did, but I think the traditional iconic image of Blue Panther doesn't quite hold up. On the other hand, I think what we have had since 06 (and OTHER things we see before that in new or relooked at footage) is actually superior in a lot of ways to the traditional iconic image of Blue Panther. That's what people were voting for back in 06 though, I think, an"idea" of Blue Panther.

 

Do you have anything to back that up because all pre-2008 Panther is exactly what I want from him.

[Jimmy Redman]

 

Said this on Twitter, but Panther's drop is mystifying. Doesn't he have a better case now than in '06? Footage explosion and all for others but he still had his signature career MOTDC after 2006.

 

Whereas Angle moved up. Different group of voters, I suppose, is the obvious explanation.

 

 

Also I think Panther was a known quantity in lucha already in 2006, whereas we've discovered different guys with new footage and a lot more luchadors are getting pimped. The competition for the lucha vote is much tougher.

[Dylan Waco]

I think Panther is someone who's stock has dropped.

 

When I first go into lucha I was drawn to him because he had a couple of big dramatic performances that I could and did rally behind, and he was a guy who was sharper on the mat than most.

 

The more lucha I watched, the less he stood out among his peers. I still rated him in the upper half, but he's a guy I probably would have put top 25 3 or 4 years ago, and I didn't even think about him on that level this go around.

 

Since OJ mentioned it, I have to say that I really don't know what I'm missing with Atlantis. Of all the people I left off of my ballot he's probably the one I feel the most badly about NOT because it was an oversight, or because I rejected him for bad reasons, but because I want to see what others do and don't. At the very tail end of the process I stumbled onto a few matches/performances of his that I thought showed flashes of brilliance which actually really rocked me because I'd never seen that before. To me he's basically a Mexican Brad Armstrong, a guy who does a lot of things well, serves his role on the card, but whom has an aura of flatness that makes it impossible to really get into most of his matches. Even still he has had a long and consistent career on tape and for that reason not including him is probably the worst example of a guy fitting the things I often look for who didn't make my list.

 

Jericho and Angle are overrated, but both stayed in the bottom third of the 100 so I can live with it. I think people know my criticisms of them, but Jericho in particular is a guy who ages very poorly. If you are going purely off memories of him and ignore his last few runs I could see him as a bottom five type guy maybe, but he doesn't hold up to any scrutiny. Angle has had more years as a bad (or at least frustrating) worker than a good one.

 

I consider guys like Tajiri, Togo and Ishikawa doing as well as they did a huge success. I'm also so far behind in this thread that I have forgotten most of the outlandish things I wanted to respond to, though I would note that I really do wish El-P had put Kevin Nash on his ballot

[Bierschwale]

Just spoke about this on the next two hours we did, but I think the traditional iconic image of Blue Panther doesn't quite hold up. On the other hand, I think what we have had since 06 (and OTHER things we see before that in new or relooked at footage) is actually superior in a lot of ways to the traditional iconic image of Blue Panther. That's what people were voting for back in 06 though, I think, an"idea" of Blue Panther.

 

I like this point a lot. I've been a huge fan of Papa Panther in the last couple of years and that would have been unfathomable to the voter base ten years ago,

[Woof]

 

Angle finaly dropped. Is it safe to come back to the thread now? Asking for a friend.

If your friend is going to wax poetic about the "greatness" of Kurt Angle then tell him no.

 

I'm at least glad Angle didn't make the top 50.

 

Angle down, let's move on to Michaels?

 

So it looks like the answer is "no, it's not safe". Got it. Back to my WWE-loving hole in the ground.

[Yo-Yo's Roomie]

Shawn will be top 20.

 

EDIT: Hope I'm wrong, but don't think I am.

[Matt D]

 

 

Angle finaly dropped. Is it safe to come back to the thread now? Asking for a friend.

If your friend is going to wax poetic about the "greatness" of Kurt Angle then tell him no.

 

I'm at least glad Angle didn't make the top 50.

 

 

Angle down, let's move on to Michaels?

 

So it looks like the answer is "no, it's not safe". Got it. Back to my WWE loving hole in the ground.

 

Can I interest you in my pamphlet about Mark Henry?

[goc]

So it looks like the answer is "no, it's not safe". Got it. Back to my WWE-loving hole in the ground.

My Angle criticisms are mostly about the very end of his WWE run and pretty much the entirety of his TNA run. I'm definitely not a "WWE hater" considering I have Cena just outside my top 10, Hogan in my top 25 and only just missed being the high vote on Matt Hardy by 2 spots.

 

Just because I loved the first 3 years of Angle's career doesn't mean I am going to forget everything that came afterward when the only idea he seemed to have for making an "epic" match was to have a bunch of finishers & counters of finishers.

[WingedEagle]

I completely understand the criticisms of Angle, but the guy still impresses me more times than not. Yeah, he does too much and for the most part has one gear. But man he just does so much with it. At the end of the day I'd rather go to bed overstuffed and perhaps a little sick than starving.

[goc]

I completely understand the criticisms of Angle, but the guy still impresses me more times than not. Yeah, he does too much and for the most part has one gear. But man he just does so much with it. At the end of the day I'd rather go to bed overstuffed and perhaps a little sick than starving.

I'd rather not have to worry about whether my next burp is going to turn into vomit.

[RIPPA]

My punishment for putting Angle on the backend of my ballot is him finishing one spot ahead of Blue Panther

 

I have no one to blame but myself

[Cap]

Those Angle rankings are mystifying to me. Top three blows my mind. To each their own I guess, but even when I generally liked Angle and he was sort of unique in his context he was just never the best wrestler in the world (in my eyes). I really don't dislike him and part of this might be just the ebbs and flows of my own interests, but he just doesn't hold up that well for me on recent and relatively recent watches. I love his intensity and the urgency of his matches, but just don't like the way many of them progress.

 

I recently rewatched his series with Guerrero and didn't like it nearly as much as I once did. His dogged determination to spend half the match in the ankle lock was soul sucking. That is coming from a full blown Eddie Guerrero mark who thinks he is truly elite watching what I count as prime Eddie work getting swallowed up by the wet blanket that is Kurt Angle.

[Dylan Waco]

Oh yea. Pillman.

 

He's one of my five favorite wrestlers ever, possibly as high as number 3. I had him in the 90s. I don't really have a problem with where he ranked because guys who's candidacy I find as problematic as his or worse have popped up around him. Parv said Jericho had a better career than him, which I agree with, but I didn't cast my ballot based on that. I cast my ballot on who was the better wrestler. To my eyes Pillman was one of the best underdog babyfaces I've ever seen from 89-92. I don't think I could honestly call Jericho "one of the best of..." anything and believe it or not I'm not saying that as a blanket dismissal of him. I just don't think he showed himself to be top class at a role or style the way Pillman did.

 

People can say that Pillman's run as a top talent was short and I'd agree. But guys with similar or shorter runs have done around as well or will do better, and keep in mind that I kept Pillman in my 90s in part because of that. You could also argue that his list of truly great matches is short and I'd probably agree with that, but I have great memories of being dazzled by him live as a kid, and I think as a consistent week-to-week performer during the era in question he produced as much good as anyone, while also having things like the Liger matches that I regard as true classics that hold up and have historical significance at least on a micro level.

 

I said this elsewhere, but in terms of length and perfectly playing the role(s) assigned to him, Pillman's peak is about as long as Bret Hart's. Bret had more great matches, and the setting/booking/culture around him was much stronger which doesn't hurt either. Pillman was more consistent at least in my view during their peak years. I have Pillman below Bret, but I think it's an interesting comparison to think about.

[Dylan Waco]

I completely understand the criticisms of Angle, but the guy still impresses me more times than not. Yeah, he does too much and for the most part has one gear. But man he just does so much with it. At the end of the day I'd rather go to bed overstuffed and perhaps a little sick than starving.

 

How do you view his TNA work?

 

To me he really dragged down talented guys like Nigel, Styles, and even Joe into the sewer with him, but as someone who may be a fan of some of the stuff I dislike, I'm curious to know how you look at the last ten years of his career.

[El-P]

I'm also so far behind in this thread that I have forgotten most of the outlandish things I wanted to respond to, though I would note that I really do wish El-P had put Kevin Nash on his ballot

 

Me too at this point. Especially since Raven deserved a much higher spot from me. I should have had Nash at 100. Hey, maybe his TNA years will convince me to do it for 2026… probably not.

 

Now I'm just sitting back and enjoying people getting mad a Kurt Angle making it this far. I didn't even vote for the guy, but I feel kinda vindicated. Now you know how I feel about Hogan/Piper/Dusty making the top 100 people.

[Matt D]

My punishment for putting Angle on the backend of my ballot is him finishing one spot ahead of Blue Panther

 

I have no one to blame but myself

 

I sure as hell blame you.

 

 

I'm also so far behind in this thread that I have forgotten most of the outlandish things I wanted to respond to, though I would note that I really do wish El-P had put Kevin Nash on his ballot

 

Me too at this point. Especially since Raven deserved a much higher spot from me. I should have had Nash at 100. Hey, maybe his TNA years will convince me to do it for 2026… probably not.

 

Now I'm just sitting back and enjoying people getting mad a Kurt Angle making it this far. I didn't even vote for the guy, but I feel kinda vindicated. Now you know how I feel about Hogan/Piper/Dusty making the top 100 people.

 

Except for the things that got Dusty/Piper/Hogan on the list are the very things that Angle lacks.

[Dylan Waco]

My punishment for putting Angle on the backend of my ballot is him finishing one spot ahead of Blue Panther

 

I have no one to blame but myself

 

This is like when my last second omission of The Andersons from my WON HOF ballot knocked them off the ballot forever.