Reactions to the List: 50-26

[Dylan Waco]

Jmare, that's a good point. i guess i shouldn't have said "anonymous", more like "non-PWO regulars".

 

people bring up AJ Styles in the top 40 but i think when people look at this list even a couple years from now, the poor ranking of the women will be far and away the most embarrassing part. Brock in the top 50 will also be up there - guys like Hogan & Dusty are more understandable when you realize not everyone was voting just on in-ring work, but Brock doesn't have anywhere near their track record as a draw.

 

i've been pleasantly surprised with the list aside from those issues, mind you!

 

I'm not sure the ranking of Joshi will be embarrassing, unless you are purely looking at this from the perspective of "we should include them to get the style and/or females represented." I watched a shit load of Joshi right before balloting was due, and it's really a bunch of wrestlers who range from shit to very good at a style I find incredibly flawed. My criticism isn't "they scream a lot," it's that the go-go style allows for little sink in, and the style is almost anti-selling at times which is not something that is going to fair well for me. I suppose I could have tried to be more representative and slide on a Dynamite Kansai and Bull Nakano, but it would have been for all the wrong reasons.

 

Of course it's possible that the pendulum will swing again in ten years and I"ll think "fuck I was a dumbass for not loving all this Joshi" but I doubt it.

 

On the other hand I could see someone like a Heidi Lovelace making my top 100 in ten years.

[El McKell]

I don't like the suggestion that everyone who didn't vote for Buddy Rose didn't watch any of him. I initally watched a handful of his matches as I did as a starting point for most of the candidates but I only really went deeper if I really enjoyed the initial smattering which in Rose's case I didn't really. He did kinda get more of a chance from me because when I was looking at other people I deliberately watched matches with Buddy Rose if possible because people we so hype about him.

​The point is I feel like I gave Buddy Rose a fair chance and I thought he just wasn't very good.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Hogan and Dusty were awesome in ring workers is the thing. You just need to open your eyes as to what "work" is.

[Dylan Waco]

I don't like the suggestion that everyone who didn't vote for Buddy Rose didn't watch any of him. I initally watched a handful of his matches as I did as a starting point for most of the candidates but I only really went deeper if I really enjoyed the initial smattering which in Rose's case I didn't really. He did kinda get more of a chance from me because when I was looking at other people I deliberately watched matches with Buddy Rose if possible because people we so hype about him.

 

​The point is I feel like I gave Buddy Rose a fair chance and I thought he just wasn't very good.

 

All we can ask is for people to give him a chance. If he doesn't cut it for you I strongly disagree obviously, and I'd love to know why, but I wouldn't want anyone to rank someone for peer pressure reasons.

 

All of this is another way of saying that if I could do it again Bret doesn't make my list.

[Jetlag]

And Phil Stardom, Ice Ribbon, and Sendai Girls are all getting buzz and starting to show signs of heating up combined with the popularity of American female workers currently I wouldn't be suprised if fans aren't looking back to see what inspired them in 10 years then they are all more popular

 

I sift through the current joshi that gets uploaded once in a while and I have to say 97% of it is so bad I think it would take a miracle for the scene to get back to it's old form.

[KB8]

Yesterday's rundown took a bite out of my top quarter.

 

Dandy (#12), Rose (#10), Fujiwara (#7) and Satanico (#5) all went down.

 

Honestly, I think I would've gone higher on Rose if I'd managed to get to his Portland babyface run (well, I say that as if I never started Will's Buddy comp about six years ago and haven't just been lazy about finishing it). He might be the most versatile wrestler in U.S. history.

 

Five years ago Dandy might've been in my top 5. Still think his absolute peak (around '89-'92, though '89-'90 especially) is as strong as that of just about anybody else that's dropped so far, but he's a step below Satanico and Casas.

[elliott]

I had Satanico at 2 and Dandy at 17. I would understand if people wanted to rank Dandy over Satanico, but I couldn't do it. Dandy at his peak was absolutely insane and I could be swayed his peak was the best ever. He was a vastly superior athlete compared to Satanico which allowed him to do more in the ring in terms of flying. Dandy was certainly a more spectacular offensive wrestler utilizing more dives and suplexes over the course of a few matches than Satanico did over the course of 2 decades. His superior athleticism also made him a smoother mat wrestler than Satanico was. Dandy at his peak reminds me of Tatsumi Fujinami where he can do literally anything in the ring and look like an absolute natural. Both Fujinami and Dandy were able to combine incredible athleticism with an incredible knowledge of how wrestling works.

 

HOWEVER. Satanico's run from 89-90 is also absolutely tremendous and I think Satanico's 9/83-84 run compares really well to Dandy's run in 89-90 even with less footage. Satanico can compete with anyone in terms of versatility and peak matches/performance/runs. Because Satanico was never about athleticism, he aged really well. He was able to have career runs at age 40 & 50. Dandy had some excellent post prime work, and he was a very good pre-prime worker. But to steal Dylan's awesome line replacing longevity, Satanico just swamps Dandy in terms of duration of quality.

 

edit: Also wanted to add that I think it is cool that they ended up so close to each other since they are each other's best opponent/career rival.

[Microstatistics]

I had Satanico at 2 and Dandy at 17. I would understand if people wanted to rank Dandy over Satanico, but I couldn't do it. Dandy at his peak was absolutely insane and I could be swayed his peak was the best ever. He was a vastly superior athlete compared to Satanico which allowed him to do more in the ring in terms of flying. Dandy was certainly a more spectacular offensive wrestler utilizing more dives and suplexes over the course of a few matches than Satanico did over the course of 2 decades. His superior athleticism also made him a smoother mat wrestler than Satanico was. Dandy at his peak reminds me of Tatsumi Fujinami where he can do literally anything in the ring and look like an absolute natural. Both Fujinami and Dandy were able to combine incredible athleticism with an incredible knowledge of how wrestling works.

 

HOWEVER. Satanico's run from 89-90 is also absolutely tremendous and I think Satanico's 9/83-84 run compares really well to Dandy's run in 89-90 even with less footage. Satanico can compete with anyone in terms of versatility and peak matches/performance/runs. Because Satanico was never about athleticism, he aged really well. He was able to have career runs at age 40 & 50. Dandy had some excellent post prime work, and he was a very good pre-prime worker. But to steal Dylan's awesome line replacing longevity, Satanico just swamps Dandy in terms of duration of quality.

 

edit: Also wanted to add that I think it is cool that they ended up so close to each other since they are each other's best opponent/career rival.

Really well put and I agree with basically everything said. I had Satanico at 2 and Dandy at 10.

[Matt D]

 

I don't like the suggestion that everyone who didn't vote for Buddy Rose didn't watch any of him. I initally watched a handful of his matches as I did as a starting point for most of the candidates but I only really went deeper if I really enjoyed the initial smattering which in Rose's case I didn't really. He did kinda get more of a chance from me because when I was looking at other people I deliberately watched matches with Buddy Rose if possible because people we so hype about him.

 

​The point is I feel like I gave Buddy Rose a fair chance and I thought he just wasn't very good.

 

All we can ask is for people to give him a chance. If he doesn't cut it for you I strongly disagree obviously, and I'd love to know why, but I wouldn't want anyone to rank someone for peer pressure reasons.

 

All of this is another way of saying that if I could do it again Bret doesn't make my list.

 

I'm with Dylan on this on both counts. I'd be curious to know why as well. That said, I had a few candidates that almost made it due to peer pressure of one sort of another, some that made earlier drafts of my list only to be removed at the last second and even a few that did make it for that same reason. I'm happy with where certain people (like Hansen) ended up, but less so on others.

 

In general, I wasn't griping at any specific person there, just at generalities in the historiography of wrestling fandom that made a "win" necessary in the first place. So I'll apologize for the tone and certain implications. I was shouting at clouds. I'll try to ride out the rest of the process with a little more grace and just a little less unbridled passion.

[El-P]

To kill time before the Top 30, I made a little research. I counted the US mainstream guys in both lists thus far. I let on the side the guys who made their case more in Japan than the US (Hansen, Gordy, even Ultimo Dragon although his WCW years were important I believe), classic guys (the oldest US mainstream guy would be Race) and territory guys (Lawler, Kerry, Rose).

 

In 2006, I counted roughly 35 names in the top 100 that I would consider being part of "US mainstream" (body of work in NWA, WWF, WCW mostly)

 

We're already at 30 in 2016, and 30 names are still to come.

 

So I think in the end, the difference will be pretty important as I don't think we"ll see much of "niche" candidates anymore at this point. Let's see. Maybe I'm off on this.

[The Thread Killer]

Joshi will probably be a distant third although I will try and watch more.

 

Well let me tell you my friend, if you like Japanese women in one-piece bathing suits screaming, are you in for a treat.

[El-P]

 

Joshi will probably be a distant third although I will try and watch more.

 

Well let me tell you my friend, if you like Japanese women in one-piece bathing suits screaming, are you in for a treat.

 

Ok. Wanna make some snarky comments about guys in their underwear, wearing mask and slapping each others chests now ?

[Jimmy Redman]

Charming.

[Loss]

I find that all women in Joshi are often grouped together and accused of the same sins in a way that doesn't seem fair. When I think of bloated matches, I definitely don't think of the common 10-minute specials in ARSION and JWP. When I think of wrestlers who don't sell well, I don't think of Akira Hokuto. When I think of wrestlers who work too fast a pace to allow everything to have meaning, I don't think of Megumi Kudo. When I think of wrestlers who work a go-go-go style, I don't think of Mariko Yoshida. When I think of veterans who overreach, I don't think of Devil Masami.

 

In other words, it feels like Manami Toyota is being used as the barometer for Joshi, which I understand since she's part of the majority of the classically pimped matches. But I wouldn't call her the best representative of the style by any means. Not everyone worked like her, which is why she got over. Stuff was praised at the time because she was such a phenomenal athlete and it was something very different from the norm. Wrestlers who worked more traditionally didn't get as much love from Westerners because we already had plenty of that stuff for free on WCW TV or wherever.

 

I love Toyota. She was an acquired taste for sure, but I do. Still, I respected her much more -- and enjoyed women's wrestling from Japan way more -- when I began to treat her as the anomaly she was.

[concrete1992]

Ten minute specials? I live for ten minute specials (actually I live for five minute specials but I can manage ten).

 

Are there joshi matches reminiscent of WCW B/C-Show matches? Short, to the point, a real hoot.

[Loss]

Nearly all JWP 1.0 (1986-1991), with a few notable exceptions. ARSION is filled with that stuff until near the end of 1999 too. Tons and tons.

 

JWP is like The Ramones of wrestling. They'd release a full card on commercial release that would be 45 minutes.

[Matt D]

I feel like this is a dangerous statement, probably an ignorant one, so bear with me. I'm trying.

 

One thing I discovered in learning to watch lucha is that my preconceived notions were wrong. Why were they wrong? Part of that was due to my exposure being mainly WCW. Part of it, however, was the tradition of lucha fandom that I had encountered in the past where 90s AAA was the pinnacle and it was the pinnacle very much for the spots and "workrate" and dives. Obviously in circles such as this one, or Segunda Caida, other elements were lionized and valued. Maybe with a deeper read of old Observers starting from a point of knowledge instead of ignorance, I would have seen that as well.

 

In starting to watch joshi earlier in this project (albeit with incomplete results), I came in with similar notions, that it was about workrate and movez and go-go-go or whatever. I think I got that from the same sources, including going through all of Herb's wrestling tidbits, (http://rspw.org/tidbits/) and old Observers and just having this 20 year old understanding.

 

I think some of the shifting about of specific luchadores in the list relative to ten years ago was due to people coming to it in the last five years and valuing storytelling and character work differently than in years past. I know that's a talking point for me in general, but I think things certain specific results bear it out up and down the list. I think that the 90s sets have done some of that reevaluation with joshi, but that it's a relatively early process, and that there will be gains in years to come as people continue to tackle it with different preferences and from a different angle than was done in the 90s into the early 00s.

 

I could be wrong about any part of that, though.

[Badlittlekitten]

That's seven casualties from my top twenty;

 

3 Akira Hokuto
5 El Satanico
10 Buddy Rose
12 El Dandy
13 Jim Breaks
17 Chigusa Nagayo
19 Jaguar Yokota

 

In terms of peak, 92-94 Hokuto is the greatest wrestler that's ever lived for me. Fujinami, Buddy Rose and Dandy are the other blow away peak workers. She had the epic matches, the moments, the drama, blood and guts and the emotion in that period which edges her above Rose, as much as I love him. And, frankly, she's the most charismatic non-US worker there's ever been, which is why she resonates with me more than Dandy/Fujinami.

 

The two remaining luchadores (Santo,Casas) are my numbers 4 and 9. Dandy stood out to me straight away in the 80s lucha footage with his Japanese style kick pads. He really can do it all. By the mid nineties his look and presence reminded me of - of all people - Bret Hart.

[Grimmas]

To kill time before the Top 30, I made a little research. I counted the US mainstream guys in both lists thus far. I let on the side the guys who made their case more in Japan than the US (Hansen, Gordy, even Ultimo Dragon although his WCW years were important I believe), classic guys (the oldest US mainstream guy would be Race) and territory guys (Lawler, Kerry, Rose).

 

In 2006, I counted roughly 35 names in the top 100 that I would consider being part of "US mainstream" (body of work in NWA, WWF, WCW mostly)

 

We're already at 30 in 2016, and 30 names are still to come.

 

So I think in the end, the difference will be pretty important as I don't think we"ll see much of "niche" candidates anymore at this point. Let's see. Maybe I'm off on this.

It's missing a lot though. Yes Buddy is a US guy, but he is also a niche candidate. Lawler getting where he is, is not due to mainstream voting, etc...

[Matt D]

Very big jump for Morton (I had him high, was almost the high vote actually, so no complaints). What's the footage boost here? Mid-South set, some Houston matches, more disseminated SMW, some early Memphis and some late Memphis? A bit more Crockett?

[Loss]

Mid South and Memphis sets, I think. The common wisdom at the time of the last poll was that The Fantastics were the much better team. Frank Jewett of tOA also suggested Morton as FIP was myth and that it was usually Robert Gibson in the role, based on a skewed sampling of matches he watched.

[Yo-Yo's Roomie]

Buddy was my number 4, but I kinda wish I'd have had him at number one now. Not just to give him that extra bump in points ( I don't believe in strategic voting), but just because I feel like I have a fuller view of Buddy's work than I do of the guys I placed above him. For my 1-3 there are parts of their careers that I just haven't seen, or haven't seen all that much of. There's a certain amount of extrapolation at play there. Now, I haven't seen all the Buddy that's out there, or even close to it, but I feel like I have seen Buddy in pretty much every conceivable situation, with the exception being that I haven't seen that much of his face run. And based on just what I've witnessed with my own two eyes, he is probably the best ever. Also, as I go on I find myself placing less and less emphasis on longevity as a really key factor. I mean, it's important to me (and it isn't like Buddy was a flash in the pan anyway), but I think I value more if a guy can work for, say, four years, in a way that shows he really understands the art of wrestling as I see it, rather than someone putting together a ten or even fifteen year run as a great talent but falling short of that higher plateau.

[Jimmy Redman]

Mid South and Memphis sets, I think. The common wisdom at the time of the last poll was that The Fantastics were the much better team. Frank Jewett of tOA also suggested Morton as FIP was myth and that it was usually Robert Gibson in the role, based on a skewed sampling of matches he watched.

 

That is clearly nonsense, but nevertheless I think sometimes it's easy to forget that Gibson did his fair share of playing Ricky Morton as well. Usually when they worked two FIPs, but still.

[MoS]

Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels are still in this, and will likely end up very close to each other. Man, if this was the late 90s/early 200s, I am pretty sure people would have been exchanging death threats by now.

 

Bret Hart beating El Dandy in the countdown is oddly fitting.

[Grimmas]

The fact anyone is surprised Bret is still in this shocks me. HBK hopefully comes soon though.