Cross Face Chicken Wing Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 Happy that Eaton is going to finish above Morton. I've always had the sense that people respect Morton more because of the singles Flair matches, but I've always thought Eaton > Morton (although both are great). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 To kill time before the Top 30, I made a little research. I counted the US mainstream guys in both lists thus far. I let on the side the guys who made their case more in Japan than the US (Hansen, Gordy, even Ultimo Dragon although his WCW years were important I believe), classic guys (the oldest US mainstream guy would be Race) and territory guys (Lawler, Kerry, Rose). In 2006, I counted roughly 35 names in the top 100 that I would consider being part of "US mainstream" (body of work in NWA, WWF, WCW mostly) We're already at 30 in 2016, and 30 names are still to come. So I think in the end, the difference will be pretty important as I don't think we"ll see much of "niche" candidates anymore at this point. Let's see. Maybe I'm off on this. It's missing a lot though. Yes Buddy is a US guy, but he is also a niche candidate. Lawler getting where he is, is not due to mainstream voting, etc... I don't even know who these unworthy "mainstream U.S." candidates are that are being referenced. Especially to try and compare this list to the 2006 version like it had such a smarter group of voters. These are the guys that arguably fit the "mainstream U.S." label and ranked on both lists: Barry Windham Steve Austin Bret Hart Ricky Steamboat Ric Flair Arn Anderson Owen Hart Ted Dibiase Randy Savage Curt Hennig Shawn Michaels Bobby Eaton The Rock Mick Foley Ricky Morton Kurt Angle Chris Jericho Rick Rude Hulk Hogan Brian Pillman Rick Martel Sgt. Slaughter So who exactly are the awful people on this list that the wizened voters of the past would have held their noses up at and had the great wisdom to reject? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yo-Yo's Roomie Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 For crying out loud. It's not hard to understand. Most of those guys ended up higher on the list than they did last time, whereas a lot of wrestlers from more niche styles (obviously those being lucha, shoot-style and joshi) ended up moving down. I'm fine with the list, for the record, but let's not pretend this hasn't happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 Settle down a bit, Goc. Don't be so fucking sensitive, it's not about you at all, ya know. I never said people didn't watch new footage, I never said all the US mainstream guys were awful either (although guys like Hogan/Piper/Dusty have no business making a Top 100 workers ever considering who's left behind). I said that US mainstream was gaining a lot of spots, and that tons of great wrestlers weren't represented or were losing spots because of this, and that it was a sign of a more conservative list than in 2006 which was more all over the place in term of styles. Anyway, I had Rocky Morton at #32 (the closest from the actual result so far !). Apart from the classic matches in the 80's, it's really the past his prime years that made me vote for him that high. Watching him in WCW looking better than 90% of the roster, turning into an effective dick heel in an undercard stable that Loss loves so much. And the again in SMW, where he carried so much feuds by his great promos and delivering in the ring to boot (as opposed to say, Jake the Snake), even making Unabomb watchable. Dustin was my #24. Great peak in WCW, just a natural talent (pun intended). Going through WCW TV, it was so obvious how good this guy was and how fucked he got by Flair hanging on to his spot and Hogan showing up. Huge Goldust fan too, so there. His comebacks in the 00's where he looked better each time makes him one of the best past 40 workers ever probbaly, although never featured in any position to show up "great workers of the decade" like Cena and Orton and Edge. The only black hole in his career is the late WCW stint and TNA Black Reign stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stomperspc Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 Didn't mean to post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 I'm not being sensitive about it I'm simply pointing out that the narrative that this list is dominated by mainstream U.S. wrestling in a way the 2006 list wasn't is not nearly what the naysayers are making it out to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yo-Yo's Roomie Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 It always bums me out that WWE are so intent on bringing in these past Attitude Era stars and putting them over the new guys and making them out to be the best thing ever, when they have on their roster fucking Goldust, who was a huge part of the Attitude Era, is still popular, and can outwrestle the BA Billy Gunns of the world on his worst day, and yet he's a glorified jobber. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Cooke Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 Mid South and Memphis sets, I think. The common wisdom at the time of the last poll was that The Fantastics were the much better team. Frank Jewett of tOA also suggested Morton as FIP was myth and that it was usually Robert Gibson in the role, based on a skewed sampling of matches he watched. That is clearly nonsense, but nevertheless I think sometimes it's easy to forget that Gibson did his fair share of playing Ricky Morton as well. Usually when they worked two FIPs, but still. It was an argument based on such a small sample size that unless you just watched the matches Jewett did, you couldn't reasonably come to that conclusion. It was a terrible talking point and Jewett did bring some positives to the table (first to review Baba/Robinson Christmas 2001 and giving David Crockett his due) but I'm glad Loss brought it up because I had completely forgotten about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 Ah, the infamous "Robert Gibson was actually playing Ricky Morton" argument. That was not his most glorious hour to say the least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luchaundead Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 And Phil Stardom, Ice Ribbon, and Sendai Girls are all getting buzz and starting to show signs of heating up combined with the popularity of American female workers currently I wouldn't be suprised if fans aren't looking back to see what inspired them in 10 years then they are all more popular I sift through the current joshi that gets uploaded once in a while and I have to say 97% of it is so bad I think it would take a miracle for the scene to get back to it's old form. This is definitely true that it will never get the level it was again or at least probably not with in the next 20 years but the same could be said for wrestling as a whole so relatively speaking I feel Joshi is primed for a hot streak in comparison to the rest of wrestling as it is starting to get noticed and there is some more talent there than there has been in the past 10 years Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Man in Blak Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 I don't like the suggestion that everyone who didn't vote for Buddy Rose didn't watch any of him. I initally watched a handful of his matches as I did as a starting point for most of the candidates but I only really went deeper if I really enjoyed the initial smattering which in Rose's case I didn't really. He did kinda get more of a chance from me because when I was looking at other people I deliberately watched matches with Buddy Rose if possible because people we so hype about him. The point is I feel like I gave Buddy Rose a fair chance and I thought he just wasn't very good. I'm not sure if this was meant as a response to me, as that's not what I meant with my previous post, but I can see where I might have came across that way after re-reading it so, with apologies, I'll try to clarify a bit. With Rose, the "watch every match from 79-82" talking point comes up so much from various people that I actually think it might be a little unnecessarily intimidating. Rose is unquestionably a guy whose case is enhanced by footage because one of his big selling points is how well he was able to adapt to the grind in Portland; it provides additional context to his output. For someone like me that was a little more focused on the performance/input side of things, though, I found a lot to like with Buddy Rose very quickly. And that's really all that I was trying to say. It wasn't that anybody that didn't rank Rose didn't watch the footage; if you didn't find anything there with what you watched, then that's your take and that's cool. For me, I didn't need to embark on the four year footage dump to come to that conclusion. Also, I did initially find it odd that so many people were high on Buddy in the GWE forums, but I think this is just a recurring theme; we've seen it with other candidates like Tamura as well. Just part of the process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradhindsight Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 Goldust on 13 more ballots than HBK - runs contrary to this mainstream bias/voting talking point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 "Watch every match from 1979-1982" is not bad advice necessarily, but what do you say to the fan on the go? Helping them prioritize among what's there during that time would probably be useful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesie_2015 Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 If this poll was as "mainstream" as many are claiming it to be, then HBK wouldn't be languishing at 31. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 Goldust is as much a mainstream US guy as Michaels. (funny how some people just don't understand something super simple) Holy shit, those two pics of Michaels. I'm amazed that Michaels actually gained spots since last time. For all the criticism he gets around here, most of it valid, he still managed to win more than ten spots. I guess all because of a bunch of self-conscious epics at Mania against Cena & Taker. Post 2002 Michaels seems to be some of the most divisive body of work ever, either you love it, either you hate it. Haven't seen all of it, although quite a bit of the big matches, and although I do think there's some to love, much of it isn't worthy of the high praise it gets. Do we need to mention again that the "Sorry, I love you" match with Flair is one of the most ridiculous overacted melodramamatch ever, and a staple of awful modern WWE manufactured "Mania Moments" ? Well, I had Micheals at #78. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 THE HEARTBREAK KID SHAWN MICHAELS!THE SHOWSTOPPA!THE MAIN EVENT!THE ICON! Bahahaha well there you go. At least Gorgeous Georgito and a lot of other people aren't totally insane. I Is Shawn the lowest ranked guy with 2 #1 votes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 I know it's not indictive of anything, but I was surprised his recommended matches were all post-comeback. Also happy Bret has won the battle of 90s WWF guys who many feel are overrated thanks to being shining stars during a low point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jmare007 Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 Average vote of 38 for Michaels seems right. Still I little surprised he did so well, but he was on a lot of ballots and had high votes so I guess it makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 I know it's not indictive of anything, but I was surprised his recommended matches were all post-comeback. Also happy Bret has won the battle of 90s WWF guys who many feel are overrated thanks to being shining stars during a low point. It's indicative of the recommendations coming from me, I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Man in Blak Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 "Watch every match from 1979-1982" is not bad advice necessarily, but what do you say to the fan on the go? Helping them prioritize among what's there during that time would probably be useful. And a couple of people did just that in the GWE forum for Rose, which maybe gets to a big point for the whole process: encouraging everybody to submit a vote is great (and certainly something that I would carry forward into the 2026 edition of this list), but I think that encouragement should also extend to the GWE forum itself. So many people have talked about the destination being secondary to the journey, but I don't know if the PWO pitch for inclusion (which, again, was ultimately a positive) mirrored that philosophy as much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted April 25, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 Goldust is as much a mainstream US guy as Michaels. (funny how some people just don't understand something super simple) Holy shit, those two pics of Michaels. I'm amazed that Michaels actually gained spots since last time. For all the criticism he gets around here, most of it valid, he still managed to win more than ten spots. I guess all because of a bunch of self-conscious epics at Mania against Cena & Taker. Post 2002 Michaels seems to be some of the most divisive body of work ever, either you love it, either you hate it. Haven't seen all of it, although quite a bit of the big matches, and although I do think there's some to love, much of it isn't worthy of the high praise it gets. Do we need to mention again that the "Sorry, I love you" match with Flair is one of the most ridiculous overacted melodramamatch ever, and a staple of awful modern WWE manufactured "Mania Moments" ? Well, I had Micheals at #78. Does Goldust work in a mainstream company? Yes. Goldust is highly regarded among mainstream fans? No. Claiming this is a ballot where mainstream fans highly influenced it seems silly to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoS Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 I am glad that the Team Austin v. Team Bischoff match was mentioned. It's probably the only time when I have liked his ridiculously exaggerated and theatric selling and facial expressions. I am curious at seeing some saying he was a good grappler. I can see why he would be considered an excellent worker, but I don't think working holds was his strong suit. I would like to see someone explain that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradhindsight Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 Steven's post is exactly what my response was going to be to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Boricua Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 Can't we just say that this list is neither niche or mainstream, it just is. Heading into the top 30 I have 22 of the wrestlers on my list still to show up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El McKell Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 THE HEARTBREAK KID SHAWN MICHAELS!THE SHOWSTOPPA!THE MAIN EVENT!THE ICON! Bahahaha well there you go. At least Gorgeous Georgito and a lot of other people aren't totally insane. I Is Shawn the lowest ranked guy with 2 #1 votes? Volk Han got two number one votes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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