Separate But Equal?: The ultimate goal of Feminism in wrestling

[Cross Face Chicken Wing]

Meltzer's board also happens to be a meeting point of the worst of the dregs of wrestling fans. I have seen them talk about how Austin should have stomped a mudhole in Debra and stunned her. I firmly convinced that 75% of the regular podters there are outright psychopaths.

It's like that on just about any mass communication channel (Twitter, Facebook, forums, whatever) on any topic. People being sexist/racist/assholes/whatever online isn't limited to wrestling discussion.

 

That's why when you find a place like PWO, you count your blessings and work to keep it the oasis that it (usually ) is.

[S.L.L.]

I think I only really think about it when some issue of gender or masculinity comes up on here in a wrestling context and I find myself bemused (or amused) by the opinions of the male majority. And it's usually not something offensive or anything, it's just that I suddenly remember that I'm a woman in a room full of men and we perceive these issues differently.

 

 

Don't worry. Shawn Michaels being the Greatest Wrestler Ever is a terrible opinion regardless of gender.

 

I kid, I kid. This is an excellent post, and there's a lot there worth thinking about. In fact...it's actually kind of an accidentally great argument for putting Trish Stratus on a GWE ballot when you think about it.

[Jingus]

Seeing how many women get treated online, especially on wrestling forums, I don't blame any of them for adopting a male or gender-neutral persona. Misogyny is still incredibly alive and well, and even thriving in too many of these places. And as for Jimmy: I didn't know your gender, and honestly it doesn't change much now that I do know it. About the only difference is "oh, some of those things you said about Trish make even more sense now".

[MoS]

The only reason Jimmy should be banned is because, despite being knowledgeable and intelligent and knowing better, she nearly got Triple H into the top 100. That is unforgivable.

 

That said, she has made some absolutely wonderful posts here. I have interacted with women on wrestling forums before, but no one has written about this issue, and reading her posts have been so eye-opening.

[Luchaundead]

I've noticed the phenomenon of gender neutral or masculine usernames being used by women online for years. I've also noticed that often it must be subconscious or an initial concern that subsides as, the same women with neutral/male names tend to free mention and acknowledge their genders. Is the internet a friendlier place than we all give it credit for?

[Jimmy Redman]

Thank you guys. I'm interested to hear the perspectives of any of the other women here.

 

 

P.S. -- I've always wanted to read a list of your Top 100 Post-Attitude Matches. I hope you'll create that one day. I've thought that for a while, I just haven't said it.

 

That's certainly something I could do.

 

When I made my Top 100 list the other day I had a fleeting thought of just limiting it to post-Attitude WWE so that I had an excuse to fill it up with post-Attitude WWE (as I did anyway), but then I thought fuck it, this is a list of my favourite matches and I can put whatever the fuck I want on it. Other people can fill their list up with 80s NWA matches or 90s AJPW matches and nobody bats an eyelid about their tunnel vision, but if you have the same amount of modern WWE you're too young or you have no taste or whatever the fuck. Fuck that.

 

Sorry that has nothing to do with the topic, I'm just venting.

 

If I did such a thing I'd want to do it properly, by rewatching and doing proper reviews. If it was just a list I could write it out right now (and it wouldn't look too different to my own list!). But something to think about now that GWE is over.

 

 

I've noticed the phenomenon of gender neutral or masculine usernames being used by women online for years. I've also noticed that often it must be subconscious or an initial concern that subsides as, the same women with neutral/male names tend to free mention and acknowledge their genders. Is the internet a friendlier place than we all give it credit for?

 

It is and it isn't. In general it isn't which is why people feel the need to do this in the first place, subconsciously or otherwise. But then when they find a safe space they feel comfortable enough to open up and be themselves.

 

You see the same thing in all walks of life. Take the way that some gay people don't necessarily reveal themselves to strangers or people they've just met, but once they're comfortable around a group they'll open up and it will be no big deal. But it's only not a big deal because they've found a safe place to be themselves in. And they don't always find such a thing.

[ohtani's jacket]

Aren't most usernames gender neutral? Surely, it's more of a presumption that message board posters are male and that wrestling is seen as a male hobby. Is the implication that women are hiding behind gender neutral names so as to not be outed as female? If that's the case, is it because of fear of harassment or something else? I'll admit I ignorantly assume everyone's a guy in so much as I think about whether they are not (which usually only happens when someone reveals they're a woman), but the user name itself kind of takes on its own identity and becomes synonymous with that person's opinions or maybe their style of expressing themselves and never really strikes me as being gender specific.

 

If a girl wanted to make it clear she's a girl, what kind of user name would she use? Something colour specific? A women's comic book character? I wonder if the distinction here isn't so much the username but the fact that male posters often refer to themselves as males, eg. I'm not a XYZ guy, or I'm the type of guy who likes blah, blah, blah, which perhaps female posters don't do. At least not at first.

 

Christ knows why I'm wading in on this.

[Grimmas]

Side note, but a lot of parents are now naming their kids with gender neutral names, because who the fuck knows what gender your kid is going to be from the second they are born.

[donsem43]

MY NAME IS SUE!!!! HOW DO YOU DO???!!!???!!!

 

And he said: "Son, this world is rough
And if a man's gonna make it, he's gotta be tough
And I knew I wouldn't be there to help ya along.
So I give ya that name and I said goodbye
I knew you'd have to get tough or die
And it's the name that helped to make you strong."

He said: "Now you just fought one hell of a fight
And I know you hate me, and you got the right
To kill me now, and I wouldn't blame you if you do.
But ya ought to thank me, before I die,
For the gravel in ya guts and the spit in ya eye
Cause I'm the son-of-a-bitch that named you "Sue.'"

 

 

[jdw]

Repeating myself, but a number of really good posts by people, especially by Redman. The second longer one was another excellent post.

[fishbaugh]

Side note, but a lot of parents are now naming their kids with gender neutral names, because who the fuck knows what gender your kid is going to be from the second they are born.

 

I'm being purposely flippant (and not insinuating anything about you personally), but isn't the corollary to this that naming your child a gender specific name is damaging in and of itself? And if it is damaging, then shouldn't be take steps to restrict it? Also, how do we deal with unisex names that have gender-specific spellings? Do we choose one spelling and dump the other? Which one do we choose (and for my name, let's choose the masculine spelling as it is on all of my official documents and I don't want to deal with that headache)? Who curates the listing of acceptable names?

 

Honestly, I don't disagree with the idea that we should choose our children's names with extreme care, as I am a firm believer that your name has a real and measurable impact on your life, but I don't see the value in choosing from a small subset of names over just talking to your child about how their identity is their own and letting them know they can always choose a different name if they feel like it.

[Grimmas]

 

Side note, but a lot of parents are now naming their kids with gender neutral names, because who the fuck knows what gender your kid is going to be from the second they are born.

 

I'm being purposely flippant (and not insinuating anything about you personally), but isn't the corollary to this that naming your child a gender specific name is damaging in and of itself? And if it is damaging, then shouldn't be take steps to restrict it? Also, how do we deal with unisex names that have gender-specific spellings? Do we choose one spelling and dump the other? Which one do we choose (and for my name, let's choose the masculine spelling as it is on all of my official documents and I don't want to deal with that headache)? Who curates the listing of acceptable names?

 

Honestly, I don't disagree with the idea that we should choose our children's names with extreme care, as I am a firm believer that your name has a real and measurable impact on your life, but I don't see the value in choosing from a small subset of names over just talking to your child about how their identity is their own and letting them know they can always choose a different name if they feel like it.

 

That is a really good post. You are correct people can always change their names and that shouldn't be a big deal. Having a unisex name may make that part easier?

 

I think more and more names are going to become unisex over time anyway, so this issue should probably go away.

 

You are correct though, there is no real harm in picking a masculine name for someone who will transition to a girl.

[funkdoc]

well, if the person transitions they risk getting banned from Facebook for not using their old name!

 

no joke, that happens and has really done a lot to push trans people toward Twitter and what have you instead

 

away on vacation as this board gets started...i'll make effort posts here eventually, i swear!

[MoS]

This has been a really good discussion.

 

I agree about the gender-neutral naming. Is there any name in the Harry Potter world that is gender-neutral, though? If I ever have kids, they are going to be named after the people in that world. Non-negotiable.

 

Right now, I am leaning towards just naming them Hermione, no matter what set of genitalia they are born with.

[JerryvonKramer]

 

Side note, but a lot of parents are now naming their kids with gender neutral names, because who the fuck knows what gender your kid is going to be from the second they are born.

I'm being purposely flippant (and not insinuating anything about you personally), but isn't the corollary to this that naming your child a gender specific name is damaging in and of itself? And if it is damaging, then shouldn't be take steps to restrict it? Also, how do we deal with unisex names that have gender-specific spellings? Do we choose one spelling and dump the other? Which one do we choose (and for my name, let's choose the masculine spelling as it is on all of my official documents and I don't want to deal with that headache)? Who curates the listing of acceptable names?

 

Honestly, I don't disagree with the idea that we should choose our children's names with extreme care, as I am a firm believer that your name has a real and measurable impact on your life, but I don't see the value in choosing from a small subset of names over just talking to your child about how their identity is their own and letting them know they can always choose a different name if they feel like it.

 

The data they analyse in Freakonomics does back up this bolded part. A name can have an impact, although more along class lines than gender lines in the cases they look at.

[GOTNW]

Gender neutral names becoming predominantly used can really only be a thing in languages without grammatical gender.

[JerryvonKramer]

Isn't the fact that only 0.3% of people are transgender a good enough reason to suggest you aren't doing harm to a child by calling her "Emily" or by calling him "Sean"?

[El-P]

Isn't the fact that only 0.3% of people are transgender a good enough reason to suggest you aren't doing harm to a child by calling her "Emily" or by calling him "Sean"?

 

Yes. I find it totally ridiculous and snobish to be pertecly honest. There are so much more important issues like actual social equality and such. You don't like your name ? Change it. You're not a name.

 

That being said, I'm a denatalist and don't ever want to have a kid, so what do I know.

[Loss]

What do the last few posts have to do with wrestling? If there's a point related to gender names and wrestling, let's make it.

[JerryvonKramer]

The most famous British wrestler was called "Shirley Crabtree".

[Jimmy Redman]

Aren't most usernames gender neutral? Surely, it's more of a presumption that message board posters are male and that wrestling is seen as a male hobby. Is the implication that women are hiding behind gender neutral names so as to not be outed as female? If that's the case, is it because of fear of harassment or something else? I'll admit I ignorantly assume everyone's a guy in so much as I think about whether they are not (which usually only happens when someone reveals they're a woman), but the user name itself kind of takes on its own identity and becomes synonymous with that person's opinions or maybe their style of expressing themselves and never really strikes me as being gender specific.

 

If a girl wanted to make it clear she's a girl, what kind of user name would she use? Something colour specific? A women's comic book character? I wonder if the distinction here isn't so much the username but the fact that male posters often refer to themselves as males, eg. I'm not a XYZ guy, or I'm the type of guy who likes blah, blah, blah, which perhaps female posters don't do. At least not at first.

 

Christ knows why I'm wading in on this.

 

If a girl wanted to make it clear she's a girl, she'd use her name. But they never do. My point in all this is that while of course there are plenty of gender-neutral usernames, there is also Matt, multiple Tims, Dylan, Ricky/Kelly, Jerry/Parv, Johnny, Jay, Phil, Drew, Steve, Sean, etc. And not any Staceys or Laurens or anything else.

 

(There's actually a Judy Bagwell on the board, but that strikes me more as a wrestling in-joke rather than someone's name obviously, and I assume Judy Bagwell is a man anyway. More to the point I guess, even someone who IS called Judy...I still assume they're a guy.)

 

On the pronouns, I have always floated between using "I'm a this guy" and "I'm this type of girl" depending on the exact turn of phrase and how I feel in that particular moment. But I'm not claiming to have any wider point to make about that other than that I like to play with gendered pronouns when I write. It amuses me.

[El-P]

What do the last few posts have to do with wrestling? If there's a point related to gender names and wrestling, let's make it.

 

Probably not. Although I was always annoyed at the girls often never having a last name. That being said, I find it ridiculous for guys too, worst being Christian. I mean, Christian ? Maybe it's because it's a french first name too that it sounds ridiculously dull and familiar without a last name. Well, the exact same thing could be said for Charlotte (again, French sounding name). Charlotte ? That's not a star name. Becky Lynch, Sasha Banks, Trish Stratus, ok. But, Emma ? Tracy ? Naomi ? Why don't they get last names ? I can get it when it's a nickname that sounds like one aka Sable or Chyna. But when it's just a plain first name, the fact women often would get the "no last name" treatment is telling. Especially when guys are usually reduced to their last name : Goldberg, Batista etc..

[Jingus]

Especially when guys are usually reduced to their last name : Goldberg, Batista etc..

I never even noticed that, but yeah, you're right. The one-name guys are never "Bill" or "Dave", which is the equivalent to what the one-name Divas are.

[Johnny Sorrow]

The guys in Los Boriquas were just billed as "Jesus" "Jose", and "Miguel" for a blip.

[Jingus]

Which probably goes back into the racism subject, because I can't remember a time they ever did that with common English first names, only those gosh-darn exotic foreign names.