JazeUSA Posted December 17, 2017 Report Share Posted December 17, 2017 Who would be your top 5 or so that you consider the most under rated workers of all time & why? When I thought about this I had these guys off the top of my head: Rick Martel Brad Armstrong Bobby Eaton Chris Adams Terry Taylor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Jackson Posted December 17, 2017 Report Share Posted December 17, 2017 Greg Valentine is the first that comes to mind Oh top 5, let me think Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Posted December 17, 2017 Report Share Posted December 17, 2017 Norman Smiley and El Dandy are the first that come to mind. Good wrestlers whose greatest exposure came as C-show workers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin Posted December 18, 2017 Report Share Posted December 18, 2017 I'm not sure I'd say Eaton, Adams, Taylor or Valentine are underrated. A lot of fans like they and give their work a ton of praise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted December 18, 2017 Report Share Posted December 18, 2017 Norman Smiley and El Dandy are the first that come to mind. Good wrestlers whose greatest exposure came as C-show workers. Pretty bizarre to say Dandy's greatest exposure came as a C-show worker. That presumes you'd define his legacy by what he did in the U.S., which would be insane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted December 18, 2017 Report Share Posted December 18, 2017 Norman Smiley and El Dandy are the first that come to mind. Good wrestlers whose greatest exposure came as C-show workers. Pretty bizarre to say Dandy's greatest exposure came as a C-show worker. That presumes you'd define his legacy by what he did in the U.S., which would be insane. That's why this conversation can't even really be had unless we defined what "underrated" actually means. Underrated to who? Because to people inside the PWO bubble no one in the OP is underrated. Even outside of that it and onto twitter it seems like Bobby Eaton is very highly regraded as is Brad Armstrong. If we're just talking "general audience, only ever watched WCW/ECW/WWE" then those guys would probably be underrated. El Dandy certainly would be since "Who are you to doubt El Dandy?" still comes up just about anywhere his name is talked about outside of somewhere like PWO and DVDVR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted December 18, 2017 Report Share Posted December 18, 2017 Norman Smiley and El Dandy are the first that come to mind. Good wrestlers whose greatest exposure came as C-show workers. Pretty bizarre to say Dandy's greatest exposure came as a C-show worker. That presumes you'd define his legacy by what he did in the U.S., which would be insane. That's why this conversation can't even really be had unless we defined what "underrated" actually means. Underrated to who? Because to people inside the PWO bubble no one in the OP is underrated. Even outside of that it and onto twitter it seems like Bobby Eaton is very highly regraded as is Brad Armstrong. If we're just talking "general audience, only ever watched WCW/ECW/WWE" then those guys would probably be underrated. El Dandy certainly would be since "Who are you to doubt El Dandy?" still comes up just about anywhere his name is talked about outside of somewhere like PWO and DVDVR. Agreed. I always hate the overrated/underrated questions because they're far more about who's doing the rating than about the subject. And I frankly don't give a fuck who's underrated by Joe casual fan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted December 18, 2017 Report Share Posted December 18, 2017 Hulk Hogan is an easy answer here. He still gets treated like he sucked in the ring. I could understand that back in the early 00s when footage was less available. But in this day and age there are tons of good Hogan matches out there. I'm not saying he was an all time great or anything but he was a more than competent worker that could hold up his end of a good to great match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richeyedwards Posted December 18, 2017 Report Share Posted December 18, 2017 Hulk Hogan is an easy answer here. He still gets treated like he sucked in the ring. I could understand that back in the early 00s when footage was less available. But in this day and age there are tons of good Hogan matches out there. I'm not saying he was an all time great or anything but he was a more than competent worker that could hold up his end of a good to great match. I would say 84 through 87 is a great run in terms of matches with the savage, orndorff and Kamala runs. But I certainly agree that the general perception (outside of pwo type spheres) is that he was really over but sucked as a wrestler and politiked himself to stay at the top. A lot of that stems from more watching his 90s run in WWF and wcw rather than going back to the msg shows, or if people do stray into the 80s just look at the supercards not the house shows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted December 18, 2017 Report Share Posted December 18, 2017 Yeah, if you watch a house show from that 84 to 87 run he usually has the best or second best match on the show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted December 18, 2017 Report Share Posted December 18, 2017 Moments in time: 75% of the AWA except for Brusier Brody by the WON in 1984/5. (High Flyers by everyone but us, always) Mocho Cota by WON (1993, DEAN 1998) Akira Taue (By everyone but like ten of us, always) Demolition Ax and Earthquake by the Scott Keiths of the world Jose Lothario through no fault of anyone. Most ignorant/ill-informed/shortsighted performance-based opinions in pro wrestling could potentially be more interesting, but it probably wouldn't be all that interesting either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted December 19, 2017 Report Share Posted December 19, 2017 Hulk Hogan is an easy answer here. He still gets treated like he sucked in the ring. I could understand that back in the early 00s when footage was less available. But in this day and age there are tons of good Hogan matches out there. I'm not saying he was an all time great or anything but he was a more than competent worker that could hold up his end of a good to great match. I'll say it then. Hulk Hogan was an all-time great. There's something to be said about wrestlers that do their thing & are excellent at whatever their thing is. Be it being a crazy man, a good hand, working like a big man, bumping, selling, whatever. To me that's what pro-wrestling has always been about. A wide variety of performers that all have different strengths & weaknesses. Easily identifiable characters where the fans can pick & choose whom they like & dislike based on what separates the performers from one another. It's all about emotion. Making the people have an emotional connection with the show. To a character, to an angle, to a match. The things that stick with me over the years are always moments in wrestling. Shawn Michaels turning on Marty Jannetty on the Barbershop. Earthquake squashing & killing Damien the snake. Rick Martel blinding Jake Roberts with Arrogance to his eyes. Randy Savage & Miss Elizabeth reuniting. Things like that. How many of those moments does Hulk Hogan have over the years? Andre/Hogan, Warrior/Hogan, Earthquake/Hogan, Slaughter/Hogan, Savage/Hogan, Sting/Hogan, Goldberg/Hogan, Rock/Hogan. He was the top babyface in WWF during the peak of the Rock N' Wrestling era & the top heel in WCW during the peak of the Monday Night Wars era. There's few people in wrestling history that have been able to control a crowd the way Hulk Hogan can. The way Hulk Hogan could draw in children, or teenagers. The way Hogan could make adults feel nostalgic & young again. That isn't politics. And Hogan more than held up his end of a wide array of matches. If anything, Hulk Hogan doesn't get credit for how smart he was as an in-ring worker. Where a booker shows their merit is by accentuating strengths & hiding weaknesses. That's what Paul Heyman was so great about. WWF used to be really good at it. They've lost that art over the years. Now you have guys that can't talk trying to do 10-minute in-ring promos and shit. It's painful. A few other names that come to mind for me: Buzz Sawyer, Hercules Hernandez, Adrian Adonis & The One Man Gang. So along with Hogan, that's probably my five. Underrated by who? Comparable internet wrestling fans in discussion & mainstream/casual fans by remembering who all but Hogan even were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cad Posted December 19, 2017 Report Share Posted December 19, 2017 Mascara Sagrada: Awkward as shit for his first year or so with the gimmick, but eventually he sorted out what he could do and what he couldn't and turned himself into an average wrestler. A lot of people rate him as awful but I'd probably rate him above Octagon. He worked harder than Octagon for sure. Jerry Estrada: Amusingly, Dave Meltzer at some point in the recent past called Estrada a candidate for the most underrated wrestler ever. IIRC he got slaughtered in the greatest wrestler ever poll and finished in like the 400s. His worst attribute as a worker was probably technical wrestling and he still managed a great title match with Lizmark. Americo Rocca: Had a pair of acclaimed matches with Mocho Cota in 1984. Cota is considered a lost great worker and even a genius, and no one cares about the man in the ring with him. Cota didn't carry him. Matches that technically intensive require strong performances from both participants. Tigro: I've been keeping this to wrestlers who are actually underrated rather than not really on anyone else's radar, because wrestlers in the latter group aren't really being rated, are they? I'll give a shoutout to Tigro, though, the best of the Thundercats IMO and a talented technician. Blue Panther: I'll be my own watchdog here. Most of my comments about Panther skew negative, and he deserves better than that. I do think that he gets undue credit especially compared to some of his peers. He also possessed some of the best grappling skills of any of them, and he looks a lot better when you compare him to average rather than to just the greats and the near greats. (I'm sure that these are not the five most underrated wrestlers ever, in part because the five most underrated wrestlers all working at the same time in the same place is highly unlikely. I didn't know the answer though so I just stuck with what I knew.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss Rock Posted December 19, 2017 Report Share Posted December 19, 2017 I actually think the Undertaker is underrated. I'm never going to argue that the guy was the greatest of all-time but I think he had a lot to offer throughout various parts of his career. Though his early run was bogged down by the zombie no-sell gimmick and working with less than ideal opponents, I think his superb character work really elevated a lot of bad matches to rather watchable affairs. He was always a guy who commanded attention and no matter who he was facing, I couldn't help but be drawn in. Around '96 or so is when he really started to come into his own as a regularly good worker with the Mankind, Shawn, and Bret matches. Now he was obviously working with three high level guys but he always more than held his own. His early 2000's stuff obviously isn't great even if I'm a mark for the Biker Taker gimmick, but his latter 2000's stuff is full of some really good matches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted December 19, 2017 Report Share Posted December 19, 2017 My wrestling goal for 2018 is to get people on board with my very specific points about John Studd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted December 19, 2017 Report Share Posted December 19, 2017 Most "most underrated" actually become "overrated" with time and pendulum & "underrated" accumulation effect. If I hear yet another time that Brad Armstrong or Hulk Hogan are underrated, I might throw up. On the other hand, I'd say that, for instance, Hulk Hogan was a better worker than Ric Flair at some point in their career (WCW 1999 is what I'm thinking about). Or that Brad Armstrong, as solid as he was, never put it together like Tito Santana did in the same kind of very basic 80's babyface work, which is why Tito had quite a bit of terrific matches and Armstrong a whole lot of solid yet unengaging stuff. That's why this conversation can't even really be had unless we defined what "underrated" actually means. Underrated to who? That's basically the reason why, after being around for almost 20 years (yeah, I'm old as fuck), I really can't get into those discussions anymore because the question goc asks is the one that matters the most infact. My wrestling goal for 2018 is to get people on board with my very specific points about John Studd. But we won't have to actually watch the matches, yes ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted December 19, 2017 Report Share Posted December 19, 2017 Not whole matches, no. I think I can get my point across with moments and segments. He's not a great worker, but he was great at certain undervalued things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Jackson Posted December 19, 2017 Report Share Posted December 19, 2017 Im totally down with exploring the history of the Studd Slam Challenge from 82-83 since Titans went kaput just as we were starting that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blehschmidt Posted December 19, 2017 Report Share Posted December 19, 2017 Not whole matches, no. I think I can get my point across with moments and segments. He's not a great worker, but he was great at certain undervalued things. You mean like in this squash match where he busts out a rolling cradle just for the god damn hell of it? https://youtu.be/H6qgA0fjZoU?t=1m30s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeg Posted December 20, 2017 Report Share Posted December 20, 2017 Here's a few- Earthquake- For a big guy he moved well, was light on his feet and had a great presence Kane- ditto Big Show- ditto Matt Bourne- great run in Mid South, even dressed like a clown he was still scary and mischeivious and underhanded as fuck Art Barr- brought the personality to that tag team Bruiser Brody- seriously where does all the hate for him come from? do you guys really expect a 6'7" 300 pound guy who looks like an axe murder in the early 80s to fight from underneath like he's Terry Funk or sell like he's Steamboat or pinball around like Flair? No he was perfect at what he did. Shane Douglas- maybe my favorite heel of the 90s, like Bourne biggest exposure was with a corny gimmick in the wwf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Microstatistics Posted December 20, 2017 Report Share Posted December 20, 2017 Most Underrated Mariko Yoshida - Her 1999-01 run as good as anyone's in history. Azumi Hyuga - Great ace, versatile, excellent seller, great matches during Joshi's dead period. Megumi Kudo - Along with Foley and Onita, the best ever at working the hardcore style. Clive Myers - Best British guy outside the usual suspects. Great technician + personality. Yoji Anjoh - Same argument as Myers but for shoot style. Most "most underrated" actually become "overrated" with time and pendulum & "underrated" accumulation effect. If I hear yet another time that Brad Armstrong or Hulk Hogan are underrated, I might throw up. On the other hand, I'd say that, for instance, Hulk Hogan was a better worker than Ric Flair at some point in their career (WCW 1999 is what I'm thinking about). Or that Brad Armstrong, as solid as he was, never put it together like Tito Santana did in the same kind of very basic 80's babyface work, which is why Tito had quite a bit of terrific matches and Armstrong a whole lot of solid yet unengaging stuff. I think this is spot on. And since we are on that subject Most Overrated Ron Garvin Blue Panther - I've done a 180 on Panther. Used to think he was one of the Lucha greats but looking back I have found a lot of his matches disappointing. CM Punk - Good worker, charismatic but no where near as good as his peers. Lack of high end stuff outside of the Joe Series and the Brock match. Stan Hansen Tamon Honda - A weird pick since he works the kind of style I usually like but think he is underwhelming more often than not and the praise is hyperbolic. Ted DiBiase - Pretty versatile and dependable but more a solid hand than a great worker. Keiji Mutoh - Wildly inconsistent Andre the Giant - I can understand the appeal since he was something unique but in terms of actual good/great matches, he has very little going on. Harley Race - Mind numbingly boring Hulk Hogan - I won't deny the energy and charisma during his prime but as a worker, he was not very good. Best matches were against Bockwinkel, Fujinami, Tenryu and one guess who was doing the heavy lifting in those matches. Alluding to the point El-P was making, just because someone is "incorrectly" labelled as terrible, doesn't suddenly make them good or great when you try and rectify that perception. The pendulum effect describes it perfectly. Steve Williams - Misawa got a great match out of him in 94 but I find him pretty dull in most other settings. Worst Kobashi opponent ever by a huge margin. John Cena - Still like him quite a lot, great ace. But his big match formula + many matches do not age well at all, inconsistent, lack of high end stuff. Dustin Rhodes - Really liked him in 91-94 but he has gaping holes in his career + inconsistencies + lack of high end stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetlag Posted December 20, 2017 Report Share Posted December 20, 2017 It's Masayoshi Motegi, ya heathens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted December 20, 2017 Report Share Posted December 20, 2017 My wrestling goal for 2018 is to get people on board with my very specific points about John Studd. Matthew if you will remember, I was praising Studd to you at least five years ago. I think Eddie Gilbert is very underrated. Now I know Eddie is fairly well regarded by fans who know him. But I think he was great as a heel or a good guy. He could play an underdog but was credible enough to win. His time in the NWA late 88 to early 89 was a great run. The Gilbert/Steamboat vs Flair/Windham match is rarely seen in full, but Eddie put in a fantastic face in peril performance. Actually going back to what footage is available, the Ricky Morton/Gilbert team was very good. As a booker I don't think he properly gets recognition for actually drawing. Watching 88 Alabama and Continental was in poor shape when Eddie started. Boutwell was mostly empty at the beginning. By the time he was fired, things had improved greatly. He booked one of the better post 80's Memphis runs and is short changed on laying the foundation for ECW. Kamala was very good at utilizing a very limited arsenal and character. One Man Gang was a fantastic big man. He could get heat while bumping and selling for smaller guys without it looking out of place. He is very near the top of my list for best big men. I would put him over Bigelow and equal to Bossman and Tenta. Hercules Hernandez is someone I don't think gets the credit he deserves. Think he is great as a heel but is miscast as a good guy. Honky Tonk Man is my WWF MVP of 1987 and in wrestling overall that year. He was so good he convinced people he actually was bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss Rock Posted December 20, 2017 Report Share Posted December 20, 2017 Ultimo Dragon. I won't make a case for him as the greatest cruiser/junior of all-time and he certainly was inconsistent at times, but his peaks are really, really high. Very exciting high-flying/technical hybrid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yo-Yo's Roomie Posted December 20, 2017 Report Share Posted December 20, 2017 Primo Colon. He's been with the biggest wrestling company in the world for more than 10 years, and no-one ever talks about him. He came about in the wrong era. People don't really appreciate what he brings to the table. His flashy stuff isn't flashy enough to catch people's attention, and his real strengths, like his old school approach to babyface selling, or his throwback heel tactics, don't seem to appeal to most people anymore. He couldn't even get on the ballot for the GWWE, when people like Hornswoggle and fucking Kelly Kelly are on the ballot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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