Andre The Giant HBO doc

[Cox]

For me the best parts of the documentary related to his family, and that's stuff that I don't think WWE would have bothered to do if they had produced this in-house. Because this was an HBO doc and they had HBO money, they were able to fly out to France and talk to Andre's family in a way that I don't think WWE would have bothered with had they done their own doc, so for that reason alone, I'm glad this exists, even if it means dealing with the David Shoemaker parts.

[Jmare007]

Good doc, not a masterpiece but a lot better than WWE-made effort.

 

I listened to the podcast with Simmons and the director, and it left me frustrated. The guy is an astute filmmaker and has a wonderful grasp of the human story of Andre. But he is an idiot about wrestling. He made a huge point of acting as a myth buster, but he had no idea that Vince and Hogan worked the shit out of him. No idea at all. I know it doesnt really matter, but it left a weird taste in my mouth.

 

Yeah, when I heard the first preview for this doc (with Simmons and Shoemaker) they made it seem this doc would have no bullshit because the director wouldn't allow it. But then I heard the one Simmons did with the director and I could tell Bill didn't know enough and was too attached to his 80's baby mentality to course correct some stuff.

 

But hey, we gotta appreciate that they left out the "Andre was a father figure for Steph" narrative that WWE wanted to push. Vince and Hogan might've worked him - and to be honest, even with the Hogan thing, they had everyone else admitting Andre was just trolling, the problem to me was they spent too much time on his bullshit paranoia - but he was savvy enough to smell bullshit on other stuff.

[Cornette's racket]

 

The stuff with Hogan saying he was afraid that Andre wouldnt put him over at WMIII was pretty hokey. Did we really need to build fake retrospective drama around a match thats famous enough on its own terms?

Highlight of the whole thing was Hogan writing out the match spot for spot on the legal pad. Classic Hogan bullshit that I’ll always love.

Really ? Hogan claimed in the documentary he pulled a macho man ? Bollocks.

 

That's bollocks about Vince or hulk not knowing whether Andre would do the job in the match. I doubt Vince would have left a detail like that to the last minute. This was a period where stuff was planned out further and what would be the point in doing wrestlemania III if Andre wasn't going to put hogan over.

[Johnny Sorrow]

The way it was implied here was that Andre was ribbing Hogan, Hogan didnt want to ask Andre about doing the job and when he went to Vince, Vince played along with the rib to fuck with Hogan. Then it gets into Hogan and his notepad stuff.

[El-P]

For me the best parts of the documentary related to his family, and that's stuff that I don't think WWE would have bothered to do if they had produced this in-house. Because this was an HBO doc and they had HBO money, they were able to fly out to France and talk to Andre's family in a way that I don't think WWE would have bothered with had they done their own doc, so for that reason alone, I'm glad this exists, even if it means dealing with the David Shoemaker parts.

 

This. It was really cool to see his family. I have no idea who Shoemaker is, but he was basically useless, why would they even include him when you got Meltz & Laprade already ? Bullshit about WMIII (Hogan was shocked Andre didn't kick out of the legdrop, ya know) and chronology issues/WWE revisionism apart, I thought it was mostly really good. The end got me. I always find it fascinating when Vince almost looks like an actual human being. Flair's innuendo was pretty funny. It's too bad they didn't include the famous Beckett anecdote. Loved the Princess Bride stuff. Good stuff overall.

[WingedEagle]

 

For me the best parts of the documentary related to his family, and that's stuff that I don't think WWE would have bothered to do if they had produced this in-house. Because this was an HBO doc and they had HBO money, they were able to fly out to France and talk to Andre's family in a way that I don't think WWE would have bothered with had they done their own doc, so for that reason alone, I'm glad this exists, even if it means dealing with the David Shoemaker parts.

 

This. It was really cool to see his family. I have no idea who Shoemaker is, but he was basically useless, why would they even include him when you got Meltz & Laprade already ? Bullshit about WMIII (Hogan was shocked Andre didn't kick out of the legdrop, ya know) and chronology issues/WWE revisionism apart, I thought it was mostly really good. The end got me. I always find it fascinating when Vince almost looks like an actual human being. Flair's innuendo was pretty funny. It's too bad they didn't include the famous Beckett anecdote. Loved the Princess Bride stuff. Good stuff overall.

 

 

He's the wrestling guy on Bill Simmons's site, which makes him an authority in the boss's eyes. But he's basically just Brooklyn Scott Keith without the asterisks.

 

I'm looking forward to watching this weekend for this and other footage that should be really fun to see, but given the Simmons/Shoemaker dedication to wrestling history my expectations are otherwise low.

[sek69]

The way it was implied here was that Andre was ribbing Hogan, Hogan didnt want to ask Andre about doing the job and when he went to Vince, Vince played along with the rib to fuck with Hogan. Then it gets into Hogan and his notepad stuff.

 

 

That's how I took it. Hogan was basically thinking "I'm pretty sure he's going to play ball but if he decides not to I'm kind of fucked, so I better make sure of it without pissing him off".

 

 

Dave mentioned how the Maeda deal happened not long before this and how it ruined Andre's rep as someone to fear if he decides to shoot, but it's not like Hulk was a trained shooter. Plus it seemed silly to think a guy like Andre would decided to fuck up the largest show in wrestling history.

[C.S.]

I have no idea who Shoemaker is, but he was basically useless, why would they even include him when you got Meltz & Laprade already ?

Shoemaker was the guy that looks like the main character from Split, right? He did have that cool "before there was CGI, there was Andre the Giant" line. Other than that, I wish we had gotten less Shoemaker - he was in way too much of the movie - and more of the footage that was cut (Stephanie, Japan, etc.).

 

I don't think Meltzer and Laprade added much to this documentary either though - at least not in front of the camera.

[BrianB]

I listened to the podcast with Simmons and the director, and it left me frustrated. The guy is an astute filmmaker and has a wonderful grasp of the human story of Andre. But he is an idiot about wrestling. He made a huge point of acting as a myth buster, but he had no idea that Vince and Hogan worked the shit out of him. No idea at all. I know it doesnt really matter, but it left a weird taste in my mouth.

 

He did an interview with Meltzer that was good. If they got him for a follow-up maybe that'd be interesting.

[BrianB]

The way it was implied here was that Andre was ribbing Hogan, Hogan didnt want to ask Andre about doing the job and when he went to Vince, Vince played along with the rib to fuck with Hogan. Then it gets into Hogan and his notepad stuff.

 

This.

 

 

For me the best parts of the documentary related to his family, and that's stuff that I don't think WWE would have bothered to do if they had produced this in-house. Because this was an HBO doc and they had HBO money, they were able to fly out to France and talk to Andre's family in a way that I don't think WWE would have bothered with had they done their own doc, so for that reason alone, I'm glad this exists, even if it means dealing with the David Shoemaker parts.

 

This. It was really cool to see his family. I have no idea who Shoemaker is, but he was basically useless, why would they even include him when you got Meltz & Laprade already ? Bullshit about WMIII (Hogan was shocked Andre didn't kick out of the legdrop, ya know) and chronology issues/WWE revisionism apart, I thought it was mostly really good. The end got me. I always find it fascinating when Vince almost looks like an actual human being. Flair's innuendo was pretty funny. It's too bad they didn't include the famous Beckett anecdote. Loved the Princess Bride stuff. Good stuff overall.

 

 

The Beckett anecdote is basically fabricated.

 

Andre might've rode with Beckett sometimes to school, but so did basically every other kid when it rained and Beckett was out. There wasn't a special relationship. Since Andre didn't explode in height and size until like 15-17 most of the stuff connected to that story is BS.

[El-P]

 

The way it was implied here was that Andre was ribbing Hogan, Hogan didnt want to ask Andre about doing the job and when he went to Vince, Vince played along with the rib to fuck with Hogan. Then it gets into Hogan and his notepad stuff.

 

This.

 

 

For me the best parts of the documentary related to his family, and that's stuff that I don't think WWE would have bothered to do if they had produced this in-house. Because this was an HBO doc and they had HBO money, they were able to fly out to France and talk to Andre's family in a way that I don't think WWE would have bothered with had they done their own doc, so for that reason alone, I'm glad this exists, even if it means dealing with the David Shoemaker parts.

 

This. It was really cool to see his family. I have no idea who Shoemaker is, but he was basically useless, why would they even include him when you got Meltz & Laprade already ? Bullshit about WMIII (Hogan was shocked Andre didn't kick out of the legdrop, ya know) and chronology issues/WWE revisionism apart, I thought it was mostly really good. The end got me. I always find it fascinating when Vince almost looks like an actual human being. Flair's innuendo was pretty funny. It's too bad they didn't include the famous Beckett anecdote. Loved the Princess Bride stuff. Good stuff overall.

 

 

The Beckett anecdote is basically fabricated.

 

So were the WMIII anecdotes in this movie.

[BrianB]

 

So were the WMIII anecdotes in this movie.

 

 

Some of it seemed a bit muddy, as Johnny pointed out. Plus, I assume the logic is that if people want to lie on camera about what they're directly involved in, then here's the footage of them saying it.

 

That's not quite as easy with the Beckett stuff, and I kinda agree with Simmons about how that'd basically be an extra 6 minutes.

[Childs]

I guess what struck me was not that Hulk and Vince are full of shit, which is what you would expect, but that the director bought their bullshit as gospel. He regarded the WMIII match as the climax of the story, and he liked the crap they fed him, so he rolled with it uncritically. Again, its not a big deal compared to the shit he got right about the human story. But it did not reflect well on his understanding of the wrestling story.

[Victator]

 

The way it was implied here was that Andre was ribbing Hogan, Hogan didnt want to ask Andre about doing the job and when he went to Vince, Vince played along with the rib to fuck with Hogan. Then it gets into Hogan and his notepad stuff.

 

 

That's how I took it. Hogan was basically thinking "I'm pretty sure he's going to play ball but if he decides not to I'm kind of fucked, so I better make sure of it without pissing him off".

 

 

Dave mentioned how the Maeda deal happened not long before this and how it ruined Andre's rep as someone to fear if he decides to shoot, but it's not like Hulk was a trained shooter. Plus it seemed silly to think a guy like Andre would decided to fuck up the largest show in wrestling history.

 

To me the Maeda deal made him look scarier. He is drunk off his gord, laying on the bottom rope laughing and daring Maeda to try to put a hold on him. I could not help but notice that Maeda did not seem anxious to try.

 

I am a big fan of Super Dave Osborne and he was on Bill Simmons podcast. I discovered Simmons is as clueless about "real" sports as he is about wrestling.

[SPS]

 

 

The way it was implied here was that Andre was ribbing Hogan, Hogan didnt want to ask Andre about doing the job and when he went to Vince, Vince played along with the rib to fuck with Hogan. Then it gets into Hogan and his notepad stuff.

 

 

That's how I took it. Hogan was basically thinking "I'm pretty sure he's going to play ball but if he decides not to I'm kind of fucked, so I better make sure of it without pissing him off".

 

 

Dave mentioned how the Maeda deal happened not long before this and how it ruined Andre's rep as someone to fear if he decides to shoot, but it's not like Hulk was a trained shooter. Plus it seemed silly to think a guy like Andre would decided to fuck up the largest show in wrestling history.

 

To me the Maeda deal made him look scarier. He is drunk off his gord, laying on the bottom rope laughing and daring Maeda to try to put a hold on him. I could not help but notice that Maeda did not seem anxious to try.

 

I am a big fan of Super Dave Osborne and he was on Bill Simmons podcast. I discovered Simmons is as clueless about "real" sports as he is about wrestling.

 

 

Maeda fucked Andre's shit up, those leg kicks were brutal and Andre was a tortoise on his back and all he could do at that point was taunt Maeda. If it had not been for Inoki coming out to ringside and saying no to Maeda asking him if he could finish Andre off then Maeda could've beaten him and Andre wouldn't have been able to do anything. Watch the video at the 31:00 min mark where Andre has endured the barrage of leg kicks and had been taken down a few times with ease, Maeda tries to continue the match and climbs into side control on him and easily grabs Andre's wrist to gain control and Andre is exhausted and barely able to react.

 

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2dgb17

 

Maeda was no super fighter either but Andre without being mobile and balanced had no way to utilize his size and strength at that point.

[Victator]

I've seen it more than once. The leg kicks hurt Andre but he was very drunk and did not seem to give a shit. Also Maeda seemed very hesitant about getting down in the mud with Andre. I don't think Maeda is professional enough to care if Inoki said he could.

[ragemaster]

Watch the Andre vs scarface match from 1968, Andre in his prime years.

But there's no aura of toughness or ability on display from him.

 

Not sure who scarface is but you can see in bits of the match he's doing what he likes to Andre and Andre just has to go with it.

 

Now I now its not a shoot, but it looks to me like a old vet having his way with the new boy.

Have the feeling Scarface would have fucked up Andre if he had wanted to.

 

Also Don't forget the same thing happened when Andre wrestled Karl Gotch and Karl German him.

Remember a story where someone asked him why he let him and Andre said how could I stop him.

 

The point is as much as some people don't like hearing this, Andre was all myth when it came to his fighting powers.

Apart from Flair story with blackjack mulligan and Andre dragging him into the sea. Not sure I believe that was a shoot, but more horseplay with drunk wrestlers.

 

I'm guessing he got away with just scaring people into not fighting him because of his size and that he didn't have to fight anyone.

[flyonthewall2983]

Again, its not a big deal compared to the shit he got right about the human story.

 

That's the bottom line for me. Especially how he got Vince to open up on camera, and realizing that pulling-his-ear thing is a real trait of his. It's clear to me more than ever now that he regards Andre as the guy that made him, and that maybe he feels guilt for not paying it back to him during his lifetime.

 

Same goes for Hogan. Not sure how I feel about this whole notes debacle, but I think his respect and love for Andre came through. And mostly his awe, of what he meant in the ring and out of it.

[EricR]

Finally watched this tonight, been saving it. I haven't read through the thread, but I'll say that I could have watched 12 hours of something like this. I do wish it had less Hogan, even though I recognize that would be impossible. But at some point it felt like we hadn't even seen Andre footage in several minutes and were just hearing Hogan talk. I wish they had focused more on his friendship with Tim White, and I wish we had seen more broken Andre footage.

[flyonthewall2983]

On his recent appearance on the Masked Man podcast, Bill Simmons and Shoemaker made a big deal of Pat Patterson's suede painting in the background shown during his interview, a reference I didn't quite get. Can someone explain it's significance to me?

[WingedEagle]

On his recent appearance on the Masked Man podcast, Bill Simmons and Shoemaker made a big deal of Pat Patterson's suede painting in the background shown during his interview, a reference I didn't quite get. Can someone explain it's significance to me?

 

I think they just found it amusing that he had a painting of himself in his house, and from what I understand was wearing the same outfit in the interview. Haven't watched yet so I can't confirm, but that's what I recall.

[flyonthewall2983]

I think that's what it was, Bill mentioned something about it without spoiling it during his podcast with the director. For some reason I thought the painting was from some old angle Bill remembered watching old WWF.

 

I know people are giving Shoemaker crap for his contributions, and I'm not above some of that either. But the part of the movie I most identified with was when he talked about the childhood discussions of Hogan/Andre and how it was treated by him and his friends as something huge as Ali/Frazier. I came of age a little later, but I had those same discussions when I was a kid too (and I guess we're still having them now, not unfazed by the knowledge predetermination of it all).

[fxnj]

Watch the Andre vs scarface match from 1968, Andre in his prime years.

But there's no aura of toughness or ability on display from him.

 

Not sure who scarface is but you can see in bits of the match he's doing what he likes to Andre and Andre just has to go with it.

 

Now I now its not a shoot, but it looks to me like a old vet having his way with the new boy.

Have the feeling Scarface would have fucked up Andre if he had wanted to.

 

Also Don't forget the same thing happened when Andre wrestled Karl Gotch and Karl German him.

Remember a story where someone asked him why he let him and Andre said how could I stop him.

 

The point is as much as some people don't like hearing this, Andre was all myth when it came to his fighting powers.

Apart from Flair story with blackjack mulligan and Andre dragging him into the sea. Not sure I believe that was a shoot, but more horseplay with drunk wrestlers.

 

I'm guessing he got away with just scaring people into not fighting him because of his size and that he didn't have to fight anyone.

Watch the Sapp/Nogueira PRIDE fight and you'll see one of the most talented grapplers in the world getting manhandled for most of the fight by a significantly larger opponent who doesn't really have going for him besides size and strength.The only reason shooters used to be able to get away with messing with big guys is that the fundamentals of fighting, especially the ground game, are very counter-intuitive, which makes it easy for them to have their way with someone who's clueless on such matters regardless of size differences. If you match them with a huge guy with a extremely basic knowledge of how to defend himself though, there's a good chance of the big guy winning.

 

Andre probably never learned the basics of fighting simply because he had little use for them in a time before BJJ exploded. He was pretty infamous for shooting on guys and just his size seemed to be enough to dominate them with little trouble. You can watch his match with the Iron Sheik, who was almost an Olympic level amateur wrestler, for example. Andre doesn't really show anything beyond just stiffing Sheik and sitting on him in a headlock but that's all he needed. Situations like when he got shot on by Gotch and Maeda would have sucked, but those guys were definite outliers.

[flyonthewall2983]

There was a brief clip from this on a commercial for the Network during the WM pre-show. I guess it's either being shared or traded from HBO.