Bryan Danielson's in ring ability

[yesdanielbryan]

Good afternoon guys, I am a new subscriber.

Considering the fact that Danielson is again an active performer, I would like to ask you what do you think about his ring ability.

He is probably the best of his generation, but how would you compare him with the best of other generations, considering exclusively in ring ability, not drawing power?

 

Is he objectively on Misawa/Kobashi/Kawada/Liger/Bret Hart considering exclusively in ring talent?

 

Maybe Misawa/Kobashi/Kawada have more great matches, but the reason was also that their best matches were against each other, so they knew each other, while Danielson challenged a lot of different wrestlers with different styles. (Misawa/Kawada/Kobashi matches against each other were probably better than best Danielson's matches, but as I wrote before Danielson had probably great matches with more different wrestlers, with different styles, but he never had a Kobashi/Misawa like Misawa had.)

 

So, explaining again my question, is he a pure talent in the ring like Misawa/Kobashi/Kawada, considering the in ring ability (not the quantity of great matches, but talent in absolute value )

 

If he would have wrestled in AJPW during the 90s, would have he delivered 5 star matches ( like Kawada vs Misawa -1994, Hansen vs Kobashi -1993, Misawa vs Kawada - 1997 ) against the various Hansen, Misawa, Kobashi, Kawada.

 

I'm sorry if I used some words more times, some ripetisions. The reason is that English is not my first language.

 

Thank you very much.

[SirEdger]

I've only seen very few stuff from Misawa/Kobashi/Kawada to truly judge if he's on their level.

[yesdanielbryan]

I've only seen very few stuff from Misawa/Kobashi/Kawada to truly judge if he's on their level.

Probably Misawa/Kobashi/Kawada have more great matches, but great matches depend on many factors, not only the pure talent (they had an immense talent) but also the challengers, the fact that they knew each other so well because they grew together, they wrestled so many times each other so it was simpler to deliver a great match in comparison to for example Danielson that never challenged KENTA before 2006.

[Loss]

Here's a thread where he was discussed in detail that you might find interesting. Even though it's old, don't be afraid to bump it if you see something where you'd like to provide a reply:

 

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/28664-daniel-bryan/

[yesdanielbryan]

Thank you Loss.

[Laz]

I'd even say he's better overall than the ones you've listed.

[Flyin' Brian]

I'd say he belongs up there, and I hope he has a chance to add to his legacy like when Shawn Michaels came back from retirement.

[gordi]

Bryan Danielson is easily in the "Best of His Generation" category. If I'm forced to make a list I might rank him below, for example, Misawa but he's certainly on the same tier (I.e. the top tier) or at worst very close. He's a supremely talented pro wrestler (and also a decent human being and very nice person).

[Grimmas]

Well.. we did a massive vote in 2016 for the greatest wrestler ever, the results say Bryan is clearly on that level.

 

9) Toshiaki Kawada (11784 points, 129 ballots, 13.19 avg, high: 1 – ChuckScumm, anarchistxx, AstroBoy, AndyLFC & anonymous; 2006: 2)

8) Kenta Kobashi (11898 points, 135 ballots, 16.62 avg, high: 1 – Alan Counihan, Lauren McKell, Marty Sleaze, Winged Eagle, anonymous & anonymous; 2006: 5)

7) Rey Mysterio Jr. (11910 points, 146 ballots, 20.92 avg, high: 1 – El Dragon, Zero & donsem43, 2006: 22)

6) Jushin Liger (12291 points, 145 ballots, 18.03 avg, high: 1 – BuryWindham/VicVenomBytes, 2006: 4)

5) Daniel Bryan (12302 points, 142 ballots, 17.63 avg, high: 1 – Danny Kichler, @jamesie_2015, ShittyLittleBoots, James Derbyshire, Venegas, Dan Rice, Quentin Skinner, Mrzfn & anonymous, 2006: 117)

4) Mitsuharu Misawa (13216 points, 137 ballots, 10.23 avg, high: 1 – Tim Cooke, Ismael Retana, Chad Campbell, Dustin Hales, Rob AnimalGlue, The Thread Killer, stunning_grover, Andrew79 & anonymous X3, 2006: 7)

3) Stan Hansen (13813 points, 143 ballots, 11.06 avg, high: 1 – Bill Thompson, Coffey, InYourCase, Childs, Devon Hales, overbooked, Stiva, KB8, Phil Rippa, MoS & anonymous, 2006: 10)

2) Terry Funk (14452 points, 148 ballots, 11.36 avg, high: 1 - Joe G, TravJ1979, Elliott, Laney, Grimmas, The Russian Daydream, PeteF3, Josh Ritter, Trent Williams, Kris Zellner, topropepodcast, ShipCanal, Jimbo Tsuruta, simen oem, John Steffy, Dr Ackermann, Jon Burr, Parties, victory, benjaminkicks, JAEDMC, The Man in Blak, El Boricua, & Dylan Waco, anonymous; 2006: 11)

1) Ric Flair (15261 points, 148 ballots, 7.95 avg, high: 1 - TheU_2001, Loss, Derek C, Moonsault Marvin, Tim Evans, Jerryvonkramer, BackToBionic, Paul Cooke, Woof, supremebve, anchor, mprice, Justin Webb, Cross Face Chicken Wing, Timothy Buechner, Steven White, Paul Völsch, Danish Dynamite, Shoe, Conker8, Fishbaugh, Ricky Whittenburg, Brad, Floyd, JazeUSA, MikeF , Badlittlekitten, & peachchaos, and anonymous 2; 2006: 8)

[Matt D]

Reading back through that thread was interesting. I was hell bent on putting Bryan 30 or higher and he almost made my top 20.

[shodate]

id put him soidly in the class just below them but pure in ring wise id put him behind Volk Han by far id also put misawa nd Kobashi just behnd han my top four of all time are Volk Billy Karl and Lou

[Victator]

As a pure talent he is undeniable. You can watch him in Memphis in 2000 and he was already really good. I think he is very underrated in terms of promos and character work.

[GOTNW]

No. In my opinion he's a gigantic failure when it comes to producing all time level wrestling, which is what you'd want from someone supposedly at that level. I don't think any of his matches would make my top 300.

[fxnj]

"Where are the classics" is pretty much my view on the Danielson all-timer argument as well. He was the centerpiece of ROH, a promotion with the sole goal to bring together all the best talent available and let them have the best matches possible, so I have a hard time buying into the idea that he got worse opportunities than the AJPW crew. I also think there's a tendency to rate him more on the performer he could have been rather than the performer he actually was considering he got taken down at a point when most guys were entering their prime.

[yesdanielbryan]

"Where are the classics" is pretty much my view on the Danielson all-timer argument as well. He was the centerpiece of ROH, a promotion with the sole goal to bring together all the best talent available and let them have the best matches possible, so I have a hard time buying into the idea that he got worse opportunities than the AJPW crew. I also think there's a tendency to rate him more on the performer he could have been rather than the performer he actually was considering he got taken down at a point when most guys were entering their prime.

Ok, but unlike Misawa/Kobashi/Kawada he couldn't know perfectly his challengers. The Japaneses were in matches against each other 4/5 time a week so they could take care of the details more in depth, while for example Danielson never challenged KENTA before their first match in 2006. It was impossible for them to deliver a match of the caliber of Misawa vs Kobashi of 1997.

However I don't think that the perception of Bryan as a performer is increased today. I am reading the WON and PWTorch, and everybody considered Danielson the best performer, not only Meltzer, also Mitchell, Keller, McNeill...

[Jetlag]

I can't remember where I put him on my GWE ballot. I do consider him a 2nd tier worker though, outside the Top 10-20.

 

Better than Kobashi, but below Kawada. About the same level as Misawa.

 

It is curious that I don't remember his best match. I always say Danielson/Morishima, but I dunno how well that holds up.

 

FWIW, he is likely the best overall guy from 2002-his first retirement in a cakewalk.

[El-P]

Well.. we did a massive vote in 2016 for the greatest wrestler ever, the results say Bryan is clearly on that level.

 

5) Daniel Bryan (12302 points, 142 ballots, 17.63 avg, high: 1 – Danny Kichler, @jamesie_2015, ShittyLittleBoots, James Derbyshire, Venegas, Dan Rice, Quentin Skinner, Mrzfn & anonymous, 2006: 117)

 

Well, except this result doesn't really reflect the debates. Most of these N°1 votes come from late voters who didn't even take part in the process at all and who haven't been seen active on the forums before or since. This was one reason the results of the GWE 2016 was so frustrating to some.

 

I don't know Bryan's career enough to compare him (ROH is a massive hole in my viewing, and my distate for what this company brought as far as in-ring style and presnetation goes doens't encourage me to check it out, maybe wrongly so). His highs in the WWE are quite high.

 

The "the 4 Pillars" always worked against each other is irrelevant though. Yes, they did. But there's no way to know if they wouldn't have delivered against Hashimoto, Takada, Mutoh etc… They probably would have too.

[Jetlag]

No. In my opinion he's a gigantic failure when it comes to producing all time level wrestling, which is what you'd want from someone supposedly at that level. I don't think any of his matches would make my top 300.

 

Oh, how some things can change in just over 2 years:

 

 

THE greatest wrestler of this generation and a top 5 USA wrestler ever. He isn't a really a personal favourite (though I obviusly like him a lot) nor was I ever as emotionally invested in his stuff as most seemed to be but it's impossible to argue against his catalogue of great matches and versatility.

[GOTNW]

Most of what I said still stands, though the versatility line seems off. I had a really fun time watching him carry Kane to a good casket match, and he's certainly someone you could put on a pedestal if you have the stomach for watching wrestling all day as he consistently delivered in his style, but it's a style I've drifted away from and, unlike Misawa/Kawada/Kobashi, there isn't an early ZERO-1 tag or a Naoya Ogawa match or some random NOAH tag with millions chops that'll pique my interest now, and that I don't really care about volume for its own sake that much (well, I do to an extent, but certainly not to the absurd level of which it's available in terms of Danielson's matches on tape), eh.

[Superstar Sleeze]

I will be honest I was waiting for someone to make the ridiculous argument that he is the best of his generation in a cakewalk so that I could jump in when AJ Styles is clearly a better pro wrestler in almost every regard than Daniel Bryan. AJ is far better at everything I care about in pro wrestling. He constructs more interesting narratives with actual payoffs instead of just more highspots. AJ incorporates selling of both himself and his opponent better than Bryan. Bryan consistently blows off selling to get his shit in. He respects size differential better than Bryan. I don't normally care about this as much but AJ is far superior at execution. AJ is better at flying than Bryan and has more interesting highspots. The one thing Bryan is better at is the ground game, but AJ has really improved his game. AJ also was REALLY GOOD in 2002 also. I did a thread back in 2013 reviewing a lot of his TNA work showcasing that AJ was already insanely talented from that get go. I think because TNA marketed him as a flier he did not get his just due. He was able to convincingly brawl with Abyss but in a smart fashion respecting Abyss' size and coming up with creative ways to gain advantages. His work with Samoa Joe showcased how brilliantly he incorporates fatigue selling into his matches. There is a crazy random Bobby Roode match where AJ Styles puts on an Oscar winning knee selling performance that may be the greatest individual selling performance of all time. AJ Styles layers his matches so that his spots come across organically and is really good at making his bouts feel like two opponents STRUGGLING to win a match.

 

Plus AJ Styles clearly has the better punch, which we all know means he is the better pro wrestler.

Look, if you think Daniel Bryan is better that's fine. It just really gets my goat (pun fully intended) that people are still asserting this ridiculous notion that he is far and away the best of his generation. It is just point blank not true. AJ Styles has been in the conversation this whole time not just since 2014, but since 2000.

[cactus]

I think Bryan is able to get a better match out of any opponent, much better than Kobashi or Misawa in that regard. I remember Bryan facing Great Khali on one of the first episodes of NXT and he got a fun TV match out of him. Misawa, Kobashi and Kawada have more classic matches, but considering All Japan is all about pure in-ring talent, it's expected.

[yesdanielbryan]

 

 

The "the 4 Pillars" always worked against each other is irrelevant though. Yes, they did. But there's no way to know if they wouldn't have delivered against Hashimoto, Takada, Mutoh etc… They probably would have too.

 

In reality my point is not if the 4 Pillars would have delivered great matches with other wrestlers (they did), but if Danielson would have delivered great matches on Kobashi vs Misawa and Misawa vs Kawada level, if he would have been in AJPW during 90s.

I think yes. Obiouvsly Misawa/Kobashi/Kawada would have delivered great matches even if they were in ROH.

[El-P]

AJ also was REALLY GOOD in 2002 also. I did a thread back in 2013 reviewing a lot of his TNA work showcasing that AJ was already insanely talented from that get go. I think because TNA marketed him as a flier he did not get his just due. He was able to convincingly brawl with Abyss but in a smart fashion respecting Abyss' size and coming up with creative ways to gain advantages. His work with Samoa Joe showcased how brilliantly he incorporates fatigue selling into his matches. There is a crazy random Bobby Roode match where AJ Styles puts on an Oscar winning knee selling performance that may be the greatest individual selling performance of all time. AJ Styles layers his matches so that his spots come across organically and is really good at making his bouts feel like two opponents STRUGGLING to win a match.

 

AJ Styles has been in the conversation this whole time not just since 2014, but since 2000.

 

I second all this about AJ Styles. To me, as I'm going through TNA (I'm at mid-08) and adding the NJ & WWE stuff, AJ Styles is probably a top ten worker ever already.

[ShittyLittleBoots]

Best of all-time.

[Jetlag]

Anytime people talk about how great AJ supposedly was back in those days, I go back, find he's essentially the world's greatest video game wrestler and stop bothering.