Most Overrated 5 Star Matches

[Childs]

I was in the crowd for Joe vs Kobashi, and it was off the charts great as a live experience. I dont know if it comes off as amazing on DVD or whatever.

 

Amazing on tape as well. That match was a big gateway drug for me in terms of deepening my exploration of both the indies and Japan. Is it one of those time and place things in terms of the 5 stars? Probably, but I will always feel great affection for it.

[Tetsujin]

Lee/Dijak for me. Just... Man I don't even wanna remember it to talk about it.

[Mad Dog]

Did the Iron Man with Bret and Shawn get 5? If so then it.

[GSR]

Did the Iron Man with Bret and Shawn get 5? If so then it.

 

No, Dave only gave it 4 1/4.

[Mad Dog]

 

Did the Iron Man with Bret and Shawn get 5? If so then it.

 

No, Dave only gave it 4 1/4.

 

 

Good. I don't really follow his ratings so I wasn't sure.

 

That does get a lot of 5 star ratings thrown at it and I feel like it's because people try to justify sitting through an hour long match.

[KB8]

I'm not so interested in what's overrated, but based on Dave's tastes (and most people know what they by now), I wonder which match he's given 5 stars to is the one you'd least expect him to. I'm not anywhere close to being in the loop with modern New Japan - or even Dave's star ratings - and by all accounts he's given a bunch of those matches in the last few years 5 stars, but it's kind of interesting looking back and seeing things that are sort of perplexing in hindsight. I mean, the Kyoko/Toyota broadway sure isn't for everyone, but that's a match you can just see Dave raving about if for no reason other than the cardio display.

 

Are there any that come across as major outliers based on his pretty obvious preferences?

[William Bologna]

Owen vs. Bret cage match. I hate that match.

[Shrike02]

Owen vs. Bret cage match. I hate that match.

Allow me to disagree it is a perfectly acceptable match regardless of how many snowflakes you toss its way.

[sek69]

I think the Golden Lovers/Young Bucks match rating really got under people's skin since there's a pocket of folks who don't want to give the Bucks even the slightest of credit for being good enough to be part of of a five star match.

[The Thread Killer]

I was in the crowd for Joe vs Kobashi, and it was off the charts great as a live experience. I dont know if it comes off as amazing on DVD or whatever.

 

Oh man, you got to see that live? Who cares how many "stars" that match got, that must have an been incredible, once in a lifetime experience.

 

One of my favorite stories about that match is from an interview Joe gave afterward. Joe said that Kobashi was convinced the American fans either wouldn't know who he was, or would boo him and expect a stereotypical Japanese heel - sneak attacking and throwing salt at people, stuff like that. I remember Joe saying he had to keep reassuring Kobashi that the ROH fans wouldn't do that, and they'd know who he was. Kobashi was reportedly blown away at the reception he got.

[PhilTLL]

Why the hype about Big Dave here? Haven't plenty of folks who use stars thrown a lot at what many here or elsewhere would consider questionable matches?

Eh, it's a starting point. I'm sure there are thousands of matches someone has overrated at 5, lots that don't really need dissecting.

 

For example, Scott Keith: both(?) Benoit/HHH/HBK matches! Benoit/Raven at Souled Out 98!

 

For Meltzer ones, I would say Flair/Windham Crockett 87, which to me is the clear third of their three big-time matches to that date.

[Johnny Sorrow]

 

 

I was in the crowd for Joe vs Kobashi, and it was off the charts great as a live experience. I dont know if it comes off as amazing on DVD or whatever.

Oh man, you got to see that live? Who cares how many "stars" that match got, that must have an been incredible, once in a lifetime experience

Yeah, it was awesome. The only shitty part was that they zip tied the seats together, and I was sitting between two giant, sweaty, fat, smelly dudes. I was squished between them. 😀

[shodate]

hart vs austin

it was far to brawl driven fir a submission match if it booked as an i quit match i would still think it was overrated but not as so its only three at best of that in the current form lys get knocked now for the overall lack of mat work in a submisson match

 

i first watched in 2007 i read i was a submission matched i always was though hart was a technical guy on a level of a Han, Fujiwara or a maestro but this match showed me thst was not true and austin as shit too.

 

even if this was booked as an i quit match i would say it not as good as Flair vs Funk

[KawadaSmile]

Are there any that come across as major outliers based on his pretty obvious preferences?

I'm baffled by that TMII/Kobayashi match even taking in consideration his tastes.

[Loss]

Why the hype about Big Dave here? Haven't plenty of folks who use stars thrown a lot at what many here or elsewhere would consider questionable matches?

Yep.

[Loss]

 

Owen vs. Bret cage match. I hate that match.

Allow me to disagree it is a perfectly acceptable match regardless of how many snowflakes you toss its way.

This would be my pick. Also, I dont even think Misawa-Kawada from 6/6/97 is a good match, much less a *****+ match.

 

All of that said, Dave has far less head scratchers than I do in a fraction of the time. Ive had to go back and reconsider my original lunacy more times than I can count.

[Stiva]

I think a ***** rating represents objective perfection which can never be achieved in a creative craft that is at the mercy of subjective analysis.

 

But if I had to answer on Meltzer's ratings, that Dragon Gate tag from ROH. And I love CIMA.

[shodate]

I think a ***** rating represents objective perfection which can never be achieved in a creative craft that is at the mercy of subjective analysis.

 

But if I had to answer on Meltzer's ratings, that Dragon Gate tag from ROH. And I love CIMA.

as much as i dislike that style there was better matches than that in that style before that in places like m pro for exmaple

[Loss]

Probably even in Dragon Gate during the same time period, to be honest. It has certainly happened but its hard in my mind for touring showcase matches to be great, mainly because the goal is typically to introduce fans to a new style, concept, or group of wrestlers more than it is to deliver a satisfying payoff.

[SomethingSavage]

 

 

Owen vs. Bret cage match. I hate that match.

Allow me to disagree it is a perfectly acceptable match regardless of how many snowflakes you toss its way.

This would be my pick. Also, I dont even think Misawa-Kawada from 6/6/97 is a good match, much less a *****+ match.

All of that said, Dave has far less head scratchers than I do in a fraction of the time. Ive had to go back and reconsider my original lunacy more times than I can count.

Care to share any specific examples?

 

I've never been a star ratings guy myself, but I have done plenty of written reviews and categorizing that I'd see later and wonder what I was doing or thinking when I wrote that.

 

There's absolutely something to be said about putting stock and value into instantaneous reactions and feelings "in the moment", but I can't help but feel that time & distance allows critics to put things into perspective also.

 

I'm not pointing fingers or singling out Dave (or anyone, for that matter) - because it's all subjective. But I truly do wonder how "great" or classic some of these modern matches will be in ten or twenty years. Plenty of them already bleed together in my mind. There are certainly some exceptions, but there are also a truckload of them that just feel so similar and nondescript. So many of them look outstanding in the moment, but then nothing sticks with the viewer or gets committed to memory.

 

Part of that is consumerism and how we view a lot of our media nowadays. It's a recent phenomenon, in which everything is instantly available and then immediately disposable. A side effect of that is - in my opinion - too much stuff gets overblown and exaggerated as the "best thing ever."

 

But then "ever" turns out to mean, "until the next good thing drops" and quickly surpasses it.

 

Time will tell though. The truly great stuff will hold up, will stand out, and will have lasting life with people. But I fully believe a lot of these 4 to 5 star rated matches fall off and aren't as remembered in the long haul.

 

Maybe I'm wrong about that.

[The Thread Killer]

Yeah, it was awesome. The only shitty part was that they zip tied the seats together, and I was sitting between two giant, sweaty, fat, smelly dudes. I was squished between them.

What?! Two giant, sweaty, fat, smelly dudes? At a Ring of Honor show? Well now I know you're lying. That hardly seems possible.

 

Next thing you'll be claiming they had neckbeards or something.

[The Thread Killer]

I dont even think Misawa-Kawada from 6/6/97 is a good match, much less a *****+ match.

 

I like that match a lot more than most people, but I can hardly see anybody rating it as a 5 star match.

 

Firstly, to me that match kind of symbolically signifies the point in the Misawa/Kawada rivalry where they took the final step and pretty much gave up on psychology in their matches. To me, at that point they kind of gave in to the ridiculous trend that was starting to become more and more prevalent in AJPW at that time - namely, "let's see how many moves we can do where we dump each other directly on top of our heads and almost break our necks." It made me uncomfortable at the time because of how dangerous it was, and I haven't been able to bring myself to watch that match again since Misawa died, considering the cause of his death and the fact that this match and others like it contributed directly to his early and unnecessary demise.

 

Secondly, if I am remembering correctly, the finish of this match gets seriously screwed up because Kawada got knocked loopy, and there was a messed up three count? I'm pretty sure that was this match.

 

EDIT: Yeah I went back and watched the finish of this match on YouTube. Misawa and Kawada are trading bombs, leading up to the finish. Misawa clocks Kawada upside the head with an elbow smash, which it looks like legit knocked him goofy. Kawada goes down, Misawa makes the cover, the ref counts three, Kawada doesn't kick out. The bell rings, the fans cheer, and then for reasons not clear (perhaps because I don't speak Japanese and can't understand the commentary) Misawa drags a 3/4 out of it, glassy-eyed, wobbly-legged Kawada back to his feet, hits him with a dragon suplex and gets the three count...again. Unless that match was Best out of 3 Falls and Misawa won both in under a minute, that finish got messed up and killed the flow of the match pretty bad. No way that can be 5 Stars, based on that finish alone. Not that it wasn't a good, maybe even very good match - but not a classic. Even if you love seeing people dumped on top of their heads repeatedly.

[fxnj]

Flair vs. Steamboat 2/20/1989

Never got this one. Just feels like them running through their shtick in front of a hot crowd without really much of a hook behind it. Entertaining but ***** and better than Clash VI? Hell no.

 

Cena vs. Punk 7/17/2011

I think this is a case of people confusing a match's build with the actual match. Punk's pipebomb promo was amazing, but the match itself never really stuck out to me and was sloppy at points. Finish was great, though.

 

Okada vs. Shibata 4/9/2017

Limbwork that goes nowhere, dull strike exchanges, and it's too damn long. Also the story doesn't really make a whole lot of sense with Shibata dominating Okada the whole match just to fall to the rainmaker like he's just another guy.

 

Okada vs. Omega 6/11/2017

Actually haven't seen this one in full, but I'm listing it anyway because the first 30 minutes bored the hell out of me to the point that I just shut the match off with no interest in watching further.

[The Thread Killer]

Okada vs. Omega 6/11/2017

Actually haven't seen this one in full, but I'm listing it anyway because the first 30 minutes bored the hell out of me to the point that I just shut the match off with no interest in watching further.

 

You said it there. I had the exact same reaction. I'll do you one better, I don't think any of their matches are worthy of the amount of praise they get, never mind "six stars." Not a popular opinion, I know.

 

I'll be the first one to admit, I am not a Kenny Omega fan. I can't get past his ridiculous facial expressions when he wrestles. I know he is used to wrestling in Japan, and in front of large crowds, so maybe he thinks he has to have over-exaggerated facial expressions to get his point across, but a lot of other people wrestle under the same conditions he does, and don't come across like they're doing bad community theater.

 

However, I have a good friend who went on and on and on about their first big match, and the subsequent rematch. He swore up and down it was one of the greatest matches of all time, and that I had to see it, and it was a game-changer, etc. etc. etc., so out of respect for him, I finally checked it out. Plus, I really like what I had seen of Okada, I saw one of his earlier matches with Naito a few years ago from the G1 which blew me away. So as much as I don't like Omega, I went into their first match with as much of an open mind as I could muster.

 

SO DAMN LONG. Everybody is bitching recently about Wrestlemania being too long - and so they should. But NJPW is just as damn bad with their last couple of WrestleKingdom shows. Not only are their shows long, but these Omega/Okada matches...I can't do it. I couldn't sit through it, I tried but I kept getting so damn bored I finally turned it off. I normally don't mind long matches, either. Hell I am a die-hard King's Road fan. Some of those 6 Man matches with Jumbo and Company against Misawa and Friends really stretched out - as did many of the Four Corners Tag Team Matches and Triple Crown matches...but for some reason I never had a hard time staying emotionally invested and engaged in those matches. I tried watching the Omega/Okada matches and for the life of me, I just don't get the appeal, I really don't. Which sucks, because I'd like a viable alternative to WWE but for my taste, NJPW ain't it.

 

I don't get the Okada/Omega matches, I really don't. I bet you could trim a good 15 minutes out of there and you wouldn't lose a damn thing in terms of psychology and storytelling.

[Boss Rock]

 

 

Owen vs. Bret cage match. I hate that match.

Allow me to disagree it is a perfectly acceptable match regardless of how many snowflakes you toss its way.

This would be my pick. Also, I dont even think Misawa-Kawada from 6/6/97 is a good match, much less a *****+ match.

 

All of that said, Dave has far less head scratchers than I do in a fraction of the time. Ive had to go back and reconsider my original lunacy more times than I can count.

 

 

Been there. I really love the Hansen-Misawa matches, probably more than anyone else.