WWE Elimination Chamber 2019

[peachchaos]

The gauntlet from SmackDown was good fun TV wrestling, this was some hard-hitting work with deep psychology and an effective layout. I knew it was gonna be good, but this wasn't exactly what I was expecting. Helluva match.

[hammerva]

JESUS FUCK NAKED MARK HENRY PICTURE on the documentary .  Thank god that was a 45 pound weight 

[EricR]

2 hours ago, C.S. said:

This fear about any of them going to AEW is overstated IMO. Jeff Hardy barely drew a dime for TNA, certainly wouldn't for AEW ten years and ten injuries later, and the Usos definitely wouldn't move the needle for AEW. 

Hardy has added a lot of ticket sales to indy shows. He might not be a standout draw on AEW's big shows, but he's definitely a big "small town" draw that would bring a totally different ticket buying class to AEW. 

[Kadaveri]

Yeah I remember when he wrestled for Ring Of Honor back in the day and a load of young women were at the show who'd never be there otherwise. Him and Matt doing the Broken angle was the only thing that's actually popped a rating on TNA in many years. Don't get this "he isn't a draw" talk, he's one of the few wrestlers nowadays who has a solid drawing case.

[C.S.]

4 minutes ago, EricR said:

 Hardy has added a lot of ticket sales to indy shows. He might not be a standout draw on AEW's big shows, but he's definitely a big "small town" draw that would bring a totally different ticket buying class to AEW. 

That's a fair point. But as the years go on, his value diminishes bit by bit. He's getting older, more broken down, had a DUI as recently as a couple of years ago, etc. 

One or two nostalgia draws is a good idea, but I really don't want AEW to become TNA or even modern WWE and go to that well too often.

Jericho and maybe one other would be perfect as far as old-timers go. Everyone else should be a mix of hot indy acts (Elite, ROH, etc.), international draws (NJPW), strategic ex-WWE signings (Pac and perhaps Ambrose, yes; Alberto, no) and new homegrown stars. 

To be fair, it seems like that's exactly what AEW is doing.

[Matt D]

Isn't part of the deal that Vince legitimately sees Hardy as a star in a way he doesn't a lot of the guys on the current roster?

[Ricky Jackson]

Really good show other than Corbin/Strowman. Main was great 

[EricR]

31 minutes ago, C.S. said:

That's a fair point. But as the years go on, his value diminishes bit by bit. He's getting older, more broken down, had a DUI as recently as a couple of years ago, etc. 

One or two nostalgia draws is a good idea, but I really don't want AEW to become TNA or even modern WWE and go to that well too often.

Jericho and maybe one other would be perfect as far as old-timers go. Everyone else should be a mix of hot indy acts (Elite, ROH, etc.), international draws (NJPW), strategic ex-WWE signings (Pac and perhaps Ambrose, yes; Alberto, no) and new homegrown stars. 

To be fair, it seems like that's exactly what AEW is doing.

Even if they didn't push him as a main eventer, they could have Hardy as a special attraction singles match that's totally separate from any AEW title picture, and he'd draw a good crowd in towns where nobody has heard of Kenny Omega. Hardy is bulletproof to a ton of fans, one of the most dedicated fanbases of my entire wrestling fandom. I honestly think he can coast on his fame for as long as he looks like Jeff Hardy. I think his popularity and style basically makes him the highest ceiling Sabu as a draw. 

[El Dragon]

Really there aren’t many wrestlers in the E who wouldn’t be pluses for AEW. If the Colons got released I could see them doing fun stuff all over the place. The WWE roster is so deep with good talent that you can pick out almost anyone and could see them getting a good run in places.

[Captain Redneck]

1 hour ago, sek69 said:

This Mark Henry doc airing now is fantastic. Pretty sure he legit is the strongest person who ever lived.

Not even close.

[C.S.]

13 hours ago, El Dragon said:

Really there aren’t many wrestlers in the E who wouldn’t be pluses for AEW. If the Colons got released I could see them doing fun stuff all over the place. The WWE roster is so deep with good talent that you can pick out almost anyone and could see them getting a good run in places.

I like the Colons more than most, but really?! AEW should absolutely avoid DOA acts like that unless they know for sure that they can bring out some untapped potential and make them stars. 

Not everyone can be Juice Robinson. 

[SomethingSavage]

2 hours ago, C.S. said:

I like the Colons more than most, but really?! AEW should absolutely avoid DOA acts like that unless they know for sure that they can bring out some untapped potential and make them stars. 

Not everyone can be Juice Robinson. 

That's the thing though. No one expected CJ Parker to "be Juice Robinson" until he suddenly was. Nobody had Cody pegged for big things either. In fact, people couldn't shit on him fast enough.

That's what makes this stuff interesting. It opens up possibilities for guys to succeed or fail on their own terms - at least in theory.

 

 

 

[C.S.]

2 hours ago, SomethingSavage said:

That's the thing though. No one expected CJ Parker to "be Juice Robinson" until he suddenly was. Nobody had Cody pegged for big things either. In fact, people couldn't shit on him fast enough.

That's what makes this stuff interesting. It opens up possibilities for guys to succeed or fail on their own terms - at least in theory.

Very valid point. And to be fair, I have always seen untapped star potential in the Colons. I'm not sure why it never worked out for them in the WWE.

To me, it should be simple - make them two stylish, suave, sophisticated guys. That's how they came across at the HOF when they were inducting Carlos, and it was the best presentation of them ever in the WWE. 

The travel agent gimmick they were saddled with - or whatever the fuck that was with the Shining Stars - did them no favors. 

[El-P]

Well, that women's match was pretty bad, all things considered. The first half was just a car wreck. Sloppy as fuck, tons of awful stuff that only benefited from the fucked up camerawork. Honestly, the IIconics looking the worse workers in a match that had both Nia Jaxx and Tamina Snuka is a feat. Billie has that kinda comedic charisma which at least works, but Peyton Royce is just god-awful, every spot she tries looks like hell. Riot Squad vs Bayley & Sasha was the best part of the match. The ending stretch was pretty decent too, but on average, terrible + ok doesn't equal good.

Not gonna be as high as many people on the men's Chambers match. I dunno, the crowd was great going bonkers for Kofi, but did anyone really thought he would win ? I had zero doubt about the outcome. Kofi was made to look like nobody's business by Bryan, but anyone thinking he's *that good* is smoking funny shit. Orton was just his boring self. Jeff Hardy I will never ever get. That guy looked like a relic of old-ass indierrific work from the early 00's, although I guess that sick swanton was cool enough (as usual, Jeff is only good for one thing : doing stupid shit). I thought the match was really excellent for the first part, then kinda began to stall once Styles got in, oddly enough. Then it only got great for the last part. So yeah, not that great masterpiece I'm hearing about. Not even *great* overall. Excellent and definitely on the first tier of Elimination matches though, with a great last part.

The rest of the show looked like a complete waste of time.

[DMJ]

I was surprised by the reactions on here for this show. I have it as one of the worst in recent memory with only the main event delivering.

- The Women's Chamber Match is like that "Young Woman/Old Woman" optical illusion as it seems you either thought this was awful or you thought it was great. I didn't like it. I went in hopeful, but it just didn't hook me at any point. I like the Iiconics as an act, but they didn't back up their taunts with anything special in terms of double-teams (which should kind of be their thing). I've seen some praise the work of Sonya and Liv's bumping, but I found it to be just okay - nothing star-making. Nia Jax running into the pod didn't look good to me, like (out of safety) Bayley wasn't positioned in front of the pod wall (so Nia basically just ran into the thing despite Bayley being closer to the ring post and barely having to sidestep). Did Naomi, Carmella, or Sarah Logan do anything cool? I don't recall. I liked the finishing stretch, but I didn't think any of the sequences/stretches in this match made me go "I can't wait till we see these two teams square off again!" I mean, Sasha and Bayley kind of dominated the whole division in one night. This match would've been better with some of the more established personalities and workers involved (Alexa, Mickie James, Alicia Fox) or even Kairi Sane and Io Shirai.  My wife was watching with me and she called it boring and too long. I had to agree. 

- If I had tickets to this event, I'd have been disappointed with the Rousey/Riot non-match. Was the post-match angle great? For sure...but if I'm paying $50 for a ticket to a show, I kind of want to see the major stars actually, y'know, wrestle. No Brock. No Cena. No Asuka. No Seth or Dean. Becky and Charlotte aren't wrestling. Then Ronda Rousey squashes her opponent in under 3 minutes. This card was really thin to begin with and she's been so dependable (and Riot has also excelled in the rare spotlight matches she's had) that even 6-7 minute match would've helped this show tremendously. 

- I know complaining about bad booking in WWE is like complaining about cold temperatures in Juneau, but jesus, the Balor match and Braun matches were practically neck-and-neck in the What Storyline Is Hurting Which Guy Worse competition. With Balor, coming off the Lesnar match, they had the opportunity to either get behind him or not, and they opted to half-step. I don't think he came out of last night's match stronger than he went in and Lashley certainly didn't gain anything either (and why again are we breaking up Rush and Lashley?). Meanwhile, in what should've been the sole squash of the night, Strowman struggles to beat a lower midcard guy in a no DQ match and then Lashley and McIntyre come out as lackeys - because being the lackey to a lower midcard guy is definitely going to get you over. Is this building towards Strowman beating all three in a handicap match at Mania? Maybe he'll team back up with the 7 year old from last year? Whatever comes of this, I'm not interested.

I was a little on the fence about buying tickets for Fastlane, which is happening like 15 minutes from my house. Last night's show made that decision much easier. I'm staying home.

[SomethingSavage]

2 hours ago, El-P said:

Well, that women's match was pretty bad, all things considered. The first half was just a car wreck. Sloppy as fuck, tons of awful stuff that only benefited from the fucked up camerawork. Honestly, the IIconics looking the worse workers in a match that had both Nia Jaxx and Tamina Snuka is a feat. Billie has that kinda comedic charisma which at least works, but Peyton Royce is just god-awful, every spot she tries looks like hell. Riot Squad vs Bayley & Sasha was the best part of the match. The ending stretch was pretty decent too, but on average, terrible + ok doesn't equal good.

Not gonna be as high as many people on the men's Chambers match. I dunno, the crowd was great going bonkers for Kofi, but did anyone really thought he would win ? I had zero doubt about the outcome. Kofi was made to look like nobody's business by Bryan, but anyone thinking he's *that good* is smoking funny shit. Orton was just his boring self. Jeff Hardy I will never ever get. That guy looked like a relic of old-ass indierrific work from the early 00's, although I guess that sick swanton was cool enough (as usual, Jeff is only good for one thing : doing stupid shit). I thought the match was really excellent for the first part, then kinda began to stall once Styles got in, oddly enough. Then it only got great for the last part. So yeah, not that great masterpiece I'm hearing about. Not even *great* overall. Excellent and definitely on the first tier of Elimination matches though, with a great last part.

The rest of the show looked like a complete waste of time.

This. All of this.

I caught about 4-5 hours of downtime (unexpectedly, at the last minute) and figured, "What the hell? I'll check out the Chamber show."

By that, I mean I'd watch the two Chamber matches and skim past everything else - unless something catches my eye.

The women's Chamber match had its moments. But there was PLENTY of "just there" there in between.

I applaud them for applying storytelling and even reaching back to last year for some sense of continuity. That's a rarity for them, and so it should be spotlighted a bit.

Once it got down to the final two teams, I enjoyed it though. So there's that.

I saw that some folks dug the finish, but I thought it looked hokey as hell. I think people are just so trained to look for "psychology" in wrestling matches that they automatically think it's awesome whenever they can apply it to ANY situation.

But nah. It looked stupid as hell here. Sasha using her foot to pull off the submission wouldn't have hurt one bit. It wasn't a legitimate submission. It didn't look like anything that would ever hurt anyone. It just looked like a silly, phony 'rasslin move that shouldn't exist in a post-MMA explosion world.

If your finish is a guillotine choke, but your shoulder is too hurt to reach over the neck and apply a tight grip, would you then try to wrap your knee behind the neck and "choke" out someone? Well nah. Because that's fake as fuck and looks stupid to boot. Same thing happened here. Just a goofy looking finish, and I feel bad that they had to sell it as something innovative or smart.

Oh. One thing stood out during the entrances. The edict that everybody strike their pose at every available opportunity needs to go. They look like video game versions of themselves stuck in a glitch.

Poor Mandy Rose looked like she had been directed, "When in doubt, just POSE." Awful. I remember Dana Brooke doing the same stuff when she first started out in NXT. She was hitting her pose as often as she was drawing a breath. It was like a nervous tick.

I like Lio Rush as the pesky manager. I did NOT like his promo here. Gave it a chance. Wish I wouldn't have. Just awful. You could tell from his delivery that the guy has a spark and some life there, but it's buried underneath dreadful WWE dialogue.

Everybody sounds like everyone else. No matter who they are, no matter what they're meant to be, and no matter where they're from. They want them all to speak the same verbiage - which is this awkward speak that nobody on God's green earth actually uses in day to day life. It's atrocious.

I don't know what the hell they're doing with Braun anymore. What a waste. Even worse, they're wasting Lashley and Drew in this League of Nations level group. Jesus jumping Christ. I know it's cool for people to dump on TNA, but they booked both those guys to look like legitimate main event caliber guys. And that was at a time when the company was almost completely bankrupt in terms of creativity. The fact that THIS is what a team of highly paid writers AND experienced wrestling agents can come up with is inexcusable. Everyone involved here deserves better. Even Corbin should be above this - that's how horrible it is.

And the main event was okay. I'm almost certain I could list about ten other Chamber matches that were better though. No exaggeration. And I never bought Kofi as a true threat either.

Don't get me wrong. I can appreciate what they were doing, and I especially appreciate the audience in attendance for biting. It elevated the atmosphere & everything, for sure. But i still never bought in.

To be fair, i understand this spot was meant for Ali. And maybe that would've stirred up a different reaction. The young rising star with a month+ of buildup behind him is simply better suited for that spot than the mid-card lifer with one week of buildup. It just is what it is.

Daniel Bryan is amazing for getting what he got out of this though. I agree with that much. I just think the overreaction to Kofi's role is a bit much. As fun as this was, it felt like a total detour. Filler. Time-killer. Not a proper prelude to a Mania match. Not at all.

I don't feel like there needs to be any outcry for Kofi to get a title shot at Mania or anything. I don't expect anything more out of this than what we got with Santino or even with Dolph after Survivor Series 2014. In both cases, those guys got mid-card title runs shortly thereafter. But that's it.

I do feel like I put more stock in Jeff Hardy than you do though, man. I'm a fan of the guy. His superstar rise in 08/09 was super fun. And I find his limitations (promos, that goofy dance, his dated style) to be part of the charm actually. Like, my nephew LOVES the face paint. That's something you think would get old, but it just doesn't. And that's Jeff in a nutshell. You'd figure people would just be over his routine by now, but they're just not. He brings a certain quality of timelessness to a look and a style that really SHOULDN'T hold up that well. But the dude pulls it off.

I actually think he's improved as a worker as he's grown older. Yes. He still does wild & crazy shit. See that Swanton across the turnbuckle. Or the SICK Swanton across the apron in that Nakamura match. That was batshit banana bonkers.

But he's so much smarter about it now. I realize that sounds contradictory, but hear me out. He's slowed down. He picks his spots. He makes shit matter.

I know I'm the guy who picks on Seth Rollins here (and with good reason, 'cause the dude fucking sucks), but really. He could stand to learn a thing or two (hundred) from a guy like Jeff Hardy.

Remember back in those hot Shield tags, how people were comparing Seth's flurries to a young Jeff? That's because, with the right lessons, he could've got there. But compare the two today & it's night and day.

Jeff sells his ass off. Jeff lets the action breathe. He takes ONE dive, gets an insane reaction from it, and MILKS that shit through to the finish. Seth dives no less than three times in 30 seconds & it amounts to nothing. Nothing for him. Nothing for the opponent. And nothing to the crowd. I mean, maybe they chant, "This is awesome." But they'll turn around and chant, "Boring." in the same match.

Even if you're not a fan personally, it's impossible to deny that Jeff is a rare breed of wrestler in today's landscape. He holds an actual connection with most crowds. Maybe it isn't what it was at his peak, but it's still there. Dude is capable of commanding their attention and playing on those emotions through his selling, through his comebacks...

That's more than can be said for this year's Mania headliner. Hell, that's more than can be said for the majority of any roster in wrestling today.

So yeah. I'll go to bat for Jeff. The guy's better than he maybe gets credit for anymore.

[Jimmy Redman]

Quote

557 (tie) - Kofi Kingston

2006 Ranking: unranked

Points: 1

# of Ballots: 1

High Vote: 100 (Jimmy Redman)

 

BITCHESSSSSSSSSSSSSS

[El-P]

8 hours ago, SomethingSavage said:

I do feel like I put more stock in Jeff Hardy than you do though, man. I'm a fan of the guy. His superstar rise in 08/09 was super fun. And I find his limitations (promos, that goofy dance, his dated style) to be part of the charm actually. Like, my nephew LOVES the face paint. That's something you think would get old, but it just doesn't. And that's Jeff in a nutshell. You'd figure people would just be over his routine by now, but they're just not. He brings a certain quality of timelessness to a look and a style that really SHOULDN'T hold up that well. But the dude pulls it off.

Jeff sells his ass off. Jeff lets the action breathe. He takes ONE dive, gets an insane reaction from it, and MILKS that shit through to the finish.

Well, that's as compelling as an argument I've heard for Jeff. But I never got it. To me his work when he wasn't about falling from high places always looked pretty bad. I never found him to be overly charismatic (nor enigmatic for that matter; what a dumb nickname). I never got the Hardys to begin with, the baggy pants, the emokid looks, that botch-spot highlight reel Lita doing awful dives alongside. Matt was the solid worker who became quite good and carried the team in non-gimmicked setting. I don't think I've ever seen a single Jeff Hardy match where I have found him to be *good* or even *fun to watch*, and I've seen plenty where he was just awful. I know about the 08/09 run and the connection with the crowd. It goes totally over my head, I don't get it.

[El Dragon]

7 hours ago, Jimmy Redman said:

BITCHESSSSSSSSSSSSSS

I have been working overnights and have actually been revisiting the old BWE podcasts in recent weeks, and I am on yours and Matts. And I was thinking how much you must be absolutely loving this.

[Rah]

16 hours ago, C.S. said:

Very valid point. And to be fair, I have always seen untapped star potential in the Colons. I'm not sure why it never worked out for them in the WWE.

To me, it should be simple - make them two stylish, suave, sophisticated guys. That's how they came across at the HOF when they were inducting Carlos, and it was the best presentation of them ever in the WWE. 

The travel agent gimmick they were saddled with - or whatever the fuck that was with the Shining Stars - did them no favors. 

I'm honestly more annoyed at how this left Mascarita Dorada (El Torito). He went from building a case as the best mini wrestler to WWE purgatory to all-but disappearing off of the Earth once released.

[C.S.]

1 hour ago, Rah said:

I'm honestly more annoyed at how this left Mascarita Dorada (El Torito). He went from building a case as the best mini wrestler to WWE purgatory to all-but disappearing off of the Earth once released.

Well, it's kinda easy to be the best mini wrestler in WWE when there was only one other.

That spot was always going to have a shelf life.

With that said, yeah, it's a shame WWE all but ignored Torito and Hornswoggle after they stole the show on two consecutive PPVs.

[Coffey]

21 hours ago, El-P said:

Jeff Hardy I will never ever get.

His best match, that I can recall, was against The Undertaker in a Ladder match on a RAW. Which was damn near a complete carry job by 'Taker, with Hardy dying a thousand deaths but continuing to keep getting up. Jim Ross going nuts on commentary & a lot of hardcore props as well. 

I just don't think Jeff Hardy is a very good worker. Which is fine because not everyone needs to be a great worker. Jeff had his role & was good at what he did/does... which is climb things & die. 

His body is broken from all he's done to entertain. He's like WWE's Sabu. 

Jeff Hardy is the kind of guy that thrives off of animated gifs going viral because he can have spectacular car crash moments. He just can't make me care about anything in-between when he's climbing shit & falling off. 

It's nice to see some people agreeing with me about the Women's Chamber a few days later now though. I thought I was taking crazy pills or something for a bit there. That match didn't do it for me at all. There were a lot of business exposing moments. 

[SomethingSavage]

u 11 hours ago, El-P said:

Well, that's as compelling as an argument I've heard for Jeff. But I never got it. To me his work when he wasn't about falling from high places always looked pretty bad. I never found him to be overly charismatic (nor enigmatic for that matter; what a dumb nickname). I never got the Hardys to begin with, the baggy pants, the emokid looks, that botch-spot highlight reel Lita doing awful dives alongside. Matt was the solid worker who became quite good and carried the team in non-gimmicked setting. I don't think I've ever seen a single Jeff Hardy match where I have found him to be *good* or even *fun to watch*, and I've seen plenty where he was just awful. I know about the 08/09 run and the connection with the crowd. It goes totally over my head, I don't get it.

I don't even disagree with most of this, to be honest. But see. For me, that's what is so fascinating about his ability to remain over and relevant all this time.

His look and his gear screams 1990's Hot Topic. His athleticism has dwindled. His moves aren't explosive enough to "fit in" with his contemporaries. Hell, I'll just say it - at times the guy looks like he's moving at half-speed. And his work was ALWAYS clunky and disjointed.

Anyone else in that spot doesn't stay that over. They don't retain that connection with the crowd. But what Jeff does *is* impressive to me. And nah. It's not the moves. It's not the fast-forward spot-to-spot stuff that is thriving in pro wrestling right now.

It's his selling that conveys such struggle. It's the sympathy that his selling elicits from a crowd. It's the way he invites & inspires support. It's way less about high-flying moves and way more about the broad strokes stuff. It's the in-betweens.

And I'll forever argue that it's more impressive to master THAT stuff than the moves.

[SomethingSavage]

2 minutes ago, Coffey said:

His best match, that I can recall, was against The Undertaker in a Ladder match on a RAW. Which was damn near a complete carry job by 'Taker, with Hardy dying a thousand deaths but continuing to keep getting up. Jim Ross going nuts on commentary & a lot of hardcore props as well. 

I just don't think Jeff Hardy is a very good worker. Which is fine because not everyone needs to be a great worker. Jeff had his role & was good at what he did/does... which is climb things & die. 

His body is broken from all he's done to entertain. He's like WWE's Sabu. 

Jeff Hardy is the kind of guy that thrives off of animated gifs going viral because he can have spectacular car crash moments. He just can't make me care about anything in-between when he's climbing shit & falling off. 

It's nice to see some people agreeing with me about the Women's Chamber a few days later now though. I thought I was taking crazy pills or something for a bit there. That match didn't do it for me at all. There were a lot of business exposing moments. 

Especially that finish. Ugh. What a silly, phony looking spot. Sasha getting the submission by pressing the top of her foot against someone's face is an all-time low. That was just embarrassingly bad.

I'd argue that Jeff had better matches in TNA than most people realize. I mean, I get that it's a big blind spot for a lot of folks. But yeah. Once he cleaned up his act and made the 2012 redemption run, he strung together some good stuff. Matches with Aries and Lashley are standouts, for sure. The match with Lashley in particular has a SICK Senton across the steel steps that has to be seen.

Strictly within WWE, I always enjoyed Jeff's series with Umaga. And the feud with Punk may be his absolute best in terms of progressive, match-to-match learned storytelling.

[WingedEagle]

19 hours ago, Jimmy Redman said:

BITCHESSSSSSSSSSSSSS

I'm still awaiting a proper rant from you on EC.