C.S. Posted October 20, 2019 Report Share Posted October 20, 2019 People may have been tired of Kofi's reign - fine - but going back to the big white meathead fuck that everyone is definitely tired of wasn't creative or fresh in any anyway. Having Kofi beat Brock would've been a genuine surprise, but that can't happen in WWE. I'm not even arguing about Kofi's loss. If he had to lose, fine, whatever. But have it happen in a real fucking match - preferably against a different opponent - but if it had to be stale, lazy, albatross Brock, fine, whatever, but at least give us a fucking match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted October 20, 2019 Report Share Posted October 20, 2019 So Rollins/Wyatt at Crown Jewel CANNOT BE STOPPED FOR ANY REASON. I kind of feel like they're tempting fate here. Also, Brock is the only part of WWE even remotely watchable and I hope he breaks Bruno's record. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.S. Posted October 20, 2019 Report Share Posted October 20, 2019 10 minutes ago, NintendoLogic said: Also, Brock is the only part of WWE even remotely watchable and I hope he breaks Bruno's record. And you people consider my sincere posts about Mauro to be "trolling." This guy wrote the book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted October 20, 2019 Report Share Posted October 20, 2019 2 hours ago, sek69 said: Instead [Kofi] got the total jobber treatment that made him look like a geek that never should have been champ. That's exactly what he is. He's a total jobber geek that never should have won the title. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KawadaSmile Posted October 20, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2019 Wouldn't go that far, but yeah. Kofi got a SIX MONTH TITLE RUN out of this. He beat all his other opponents in decisive fashion and you could easily explain his defeat as the Power of Positivity going over his head - very few people would carelessly charge Brock and not pay the price. He still got a way better deal than Roman ever did.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted October 20, 2019 Report Share Posted October 20, 2019 13 minutes ago, Coffey said: That's exactly what he is. He's a total jobber geek that never should have won the title. He is part of one of the most over acts in the company and the build up to his win was one of the hottest parts of Wrestlemania. It's not like they put the belt on Bo Dallas or some shit like that. He wasn't out of place as champ, it just didn't have any long term legs. Of course there's the WWE problem of wanting to book babyfaces in general as goofs and it just wasn't going to work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummer Posted October 20, 2019 Report Share Posted October 20, 2019 If Kofi hadn't gotten so over and they had gone with the original KO v Bryan title match at Mania I wonder who would have went over? I don't think KO would have won the title that night honestly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted October 20, 2019 Report Share Posted October 20, 2019 I just don't think you can be booked for a decade as a nobody and then suddenly just become world champion. It doesn't work. It didn't work with Kofi and it didn't work with Jinder. Because at the end of the day, when the bell rings, it's still Kofi & Jinder doing Kofi & Jinder things. Prowrestling should still be about drawing money, not about giving guys "thank you" runs. Look at all the guys on the roster during the late 80's or early 90's that didn't get a shot on top because Hogan was there. Guys like DiBiase, Rude or Hennig weren't good enough? Of course they were. Hogan was just the guy. Like Bret & Shawn both climbed to the top but they weren't jobbers for a decade. They were in a tag team, then went solo, worked their way up & it was credible & believable when they were on top. Kofi didn't even change anything. It was the same New Day Kofi but suddenly he's a main eventer because WWE said so. Yeah, the fans did get behind him, admittedly. His match with Bryan was good, admittedly. And his moment was special. But couldn't that exact same scenario have played out with literally anyone else as well? Daniel is going to have a good match with damn near anyone. If you use 'Mania to make someone it's usually special - WWE for a long time did that with guys. Push an underdog & the fans have a strong chance of getting behind them. But Kofi went from being the guy that did a spot once a year in the Rumble to winning the world title at Wrestlemania overnight & as a fan, it just felt way too forced. It didn't feel organic. And Vince McMahon injecting himself into the story I would argue made it even worse. Part of the issue is also due to how devalued all of the midcard belts have become. How many times has Kofi an IC or US title? And none of those reigns mean anything. That's not on Kofi. That's because the midcard titles have no prestige about them anymore. They're basically paperweights. So Kofi being a 30-time midcard champ isn't anything special. Anymore than Jericho having them 40 times or Christian or Edge or Jeff Hardy or Miz or whomever else. I don't think it's just about Kofi. Which maybe it comes off that way during my ranting but really, it's just more that the WWE machine is broken. And Kofi was a casualty of the broken machine. Because this should have made him. And instead it just felt like he was role playing on top for awhile. That's on WWE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
War is Raw Posted October 20, 2019 Report Share Posted October 20, 2019 Coffey You have said a lot of truths, no doubt. However IMHO there is one contradiction: if titles have meant nothing in WWE since the mid to late 1990s, to quote Hillary Clinton, "what difference- at this point- does it make" who has the title in 2019? The titles are utterly meaningless for all the reasons you said. Therefore it stands to reason, there was no wrong choice. Russo saw that in WCW and took it to its logical conclusion. No need to take this nonsense seriously if it already jumped the shark. Saying "Kofi wasn't worthy" doesn't make sense in the system is broken (kayfabe dead, viewership down and cannot be taken back up after Episode 2 of FOX, too many title changes, bad writing, etc.) Underdogs getting hot has been a staple with pro wrestling. It's the reason why guys hang around for decades. They know at any point they could be booked near the top or at the top. Look at The Miz who was a jobber for a whole year a few years ago and then got pushed in spotlighted matches. Even Dolph gets resurrected every year, like an undead zombie. Even Uncle Dave thought Rey Mysterio was going to upset Seth Rollins this month on RAW for the belt. See Tito Santana's WWF career. If you don't like my examples, there are more. These are off the top of my head. For WWE to insult its dwindling fanbase with a 7-second "realistic" squash (as defended by Lance Storm BTW) to put over Brock (again), push a Saudi match, show the 1 million new FOX viewers Kofi was an impostor champ, not even have Kofi mention it the next week...well, it's one of many reasons why Smackdown loses viewers every week, fans are pissed on Reddit, and disgruntled fans are checking out AEW. So by all means, keep doing it, WWE. And yes, I'm sure Bruce Prichard will defend it one day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.S. Posted October 20, 2019 Report Share Posted October 20, 2019 Correction, @Coffey: Kofi was never put into a position to be a main event guy. He was always deserving and the fans always wanted it. Don't hold bad booking and lack of opportunities for "people like him" (hey, not my words - it was in the WM build) against him. Comparing him to "That Indian Guy" makes no sense. Totally different careers and situations. P.S. Coffey hating Kofi makes me sad because their names are so similar. In my mind, Coffey is the wicked, jealous, younger cousin of Kofi, seething in long-simmering resentment over his more famous namesake's successes. (Every firstborn boy in their village in Guyana is given some version of the name Kofi/Coffey.) Seriously, where the hell is @Jimmy Redman to defend Kofi when we need her? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted October 21, 2019 Report Share Posted October 21, 2019 29 minutes ago, War is Raw said: And yes, I'm sure Bruce Prichard will defend it one day. "We're telling a story." The problem with Kofi is that he was great for the Mania moment. But it made no sense to keep the title on him for much time afterward. It's like Luger winning the title from Hogan on Nitro. A great moment, and it was great in itself, but it had no other use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.S. Posted October 21, 2019 Report Share Posted October 21, 2019 1 minute ago, El-P said: "We're telling a story." "If that same match had been in the Tokyo Dome, it would've been six stars!" "They did the same with Brock and Goldberg, and no one complained!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted October 21, 2019 Report Share Posted October 21, 2019 3 minutes ago, C.S. said: "If that same match had been in the Tokyo Dome, it would've been six stars!" "They did the same with Brock and Goldberg, and no one complained!" and never forget : "Brock is an attraction." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted October 21, 2019 Report Share Posted October 21, 2019 These last several years, if WWE went all-in on their roster & actually tried to make dudes instead of doing 50/50 booking or getting cold feet/changing their mind on pushes, imagine how different the top of the card would look. They could have made Kofi. They could have made Drew McIntyre, Bobby Lashley, Braun Strowman, Bray Wyatt... hell, maybe even Jinder. His new entrance & what not was money but I think he got hurt? They brought back Khali for some reason. Fans weren't buying it. Again, because they didn't build him up first. He just like won a random 4-way match or some shit. Roman should have been THE guy. The next John Cena. They even let him beat Undertaker at Wrestlemania (which would have been a lot bigger deal had they not given it to Brock first), even with the unforeseen cancer but they had Seth leave Wrestlemania with the belt after a stupid-ass cash-in and we had to suffer Seth for YEARS as he failed on top as both a babyface and a heel. UGH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted October 21, 2019 Report Share Posted October 21, 2019 7 hours ago, Coffey said: hell, maybe even Jinder. His new entrance & what not was money but I think he got hurt? They brought back Khali for some reason. Fans weren't buying it. Again, because they didn't build him up first. And also maybe because it was a transparent move. Remember back then, the big talk was about how WWE was gonna break big into the India market, and this was the sole reason Jinder was pushed. They had those two "big" shows in India coming up, which ended up transforming into only one not so big show because the tickets weren't selling if I remember right. And that's the only reason why Jinder was pushed, really, after being a JTTS for his entire career. I know some people romanticize JBL's title reign, but I seem to remember at the time it was considered a miserable failure, JBL had been a tag team goon forever and no one really bought his push at the top. At least, Kofi got his "moment", because Daniel Bryan is so damn fantastic. But it was not even supposed to be him but Ali at first. He was an interchangeable peon in the machine. Like everybody else. The fact they will systematically squash anyone getting over "on his own" (wait, wasn't that the entire goal of pro-wrestling inner working ? Getting over to make the audience care and buy your shit ?) is the consequence of this mentality. Rusev & Lana could have been a super over upper-mid card/main event act at east twice since their debut. Look at where they at now. Yeah, let's humiliate Rusev, because that's how you get a babyface over, and split them, you never know, might be successful in fucking up their marriage IRL too, like it often happens. On the other hand, let's push Baron Corbin and Seth Rollins forever, even past the point of them being proven ratings/interest death. Why ? Because. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordi Posted October 21, 2019 Report Share Posted October 21, 2019 1 hour ago, El-P said: The fact they will systematically squash anyone getting over "on his own" (wait, wasn't that the entire goal of pro-wrestling inner working ? Getting over to make the audience care and buy your shit ?) is the consequence of this mentality. Rusev & Lana could have been a super over upper-mid card/main event act at east twice since their debut. Look at where they at now. Yeah, let's humiliate Rusev, because that's how you get a babyface over, and split them, you never know, might be successful in fucking up their marriage IRL too, like it often happens. On the other hand, let's push Baron Corbin and Seth Rollins forever, even past the point of them being proven ratings/interest death. Why ? Because. This is where AEW could win out over WWE. By not doing this. Just by letting their wrestlers get over and not interfering in it. It's very very early in their run and there is still a ton of time for them to screw things up, but just look at how people already care about Private Party and Darby Allin. At this point, I can happily imagine that they are going to let that flower rather than ruining it. Their approach so far seems to be almost the exact opposite of how WWE books their wrestlers. And thank God for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted October 21, 2019 Report Share Posted October 21, 2019 8 hours ago, El-P said: And also maybe because it was a transparent move. Remember back then, the big talk was about how WWE was gonna break big into the India market, and this was the sole reason Jinder was pushed. They had those two "big" shows in India coming up, which ended up transforming into only one not so big show because the tickets weren't selling if I remember right. And that's the only reason why Jinder was pushed, really, after being a JTTS for his entire career. Wow, I had actually totally forgotten about that part but you're right. Yeah, that's pretty transparent. Shame too because by all accounts Jinder seems like a great dude that's pretty well liked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.S. Posted October 21, 2019 Report Share Posted October 21, 2019 To be fair, I don't think that same push would've gone to just any random Indian guy. Jinder was hitting the IcoPro pretty hard, which Vince had to like and take notice of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KawadaSmile Posted October 22, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2019 Well he did look awesome and them roids made him look like a million bucks. PAC wouldn't get noticed if he didn't do roids, too. Roids are good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.S. Posted October 22, 2019 Report Share Posted October 22, 2019 59 minutes ago, KawadaSmile said: PAC wouldn't get noticed if he didn't do roids, too. Roids did nothing to make PAC a compelling act though. He's still a troll-faced channel-changer for me - always has been, dating back to his days in NXT as Adrian Neville. Even the AEW "honeymoon shine" that's somehow breathed fresh air into Jake Hager, of all people, hasn't worked on PAC. Forcing a guy into a winning streak and major matches doesn't make him major league. He never will be. Of all the ex-WWE guys now in AEW, PAC is firmly on the bottom. Shawn Spears was a better pick-up, because he has actually demonstrated an ability to get over with the crowd and stay over. PAC is never going to be a top guy. Maybe Spears and Hager won't be either, but at least the fans give a fuck about them and chant for them. No one has or will ever chant for PAC. Even the name is stupid. But yeah, "That Indian Guy" did look like a million rupees and had the best entrance in all of wrestling at one time. The saddest part of his de-push, for me, was losing that entrance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted October 22, 2019 Report Share Posted October 22, 2019 I agree about PAC by the way & I don't feel like C.S. & I agree on a lot, so it felt noteworthy. PAC, to me, feels like his big thing is doing an awe-inspiring high spot, be it a dive or a move off of the top (or both). Problem is, EVERYONE does that now, including the women & super heavyweights. So PAC hitting a Red Arrow isn't any bigger of a deal to me than Billy Kidman doing a Shooting Star Press twenty years ago. Plus PAC has a bad name, basically no gimmick, isn't a good promo/talker & seems to lack any charisma. Regardless of how athletic the dwarven bastard is, I don't give two shits to watch him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stiva Posted October 22, 2019 Report Share Posted October 22, 2019 Catching up on NXT and Oney Lorcan would get over if they let him work those awesome hot tags on either of the main two shows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted October 22, 2019 Report Share Posted October 22, 2019 You guys are nuts. Pac the Man That Gravity Forgot is nothing to write home about, but violent bastard Pac is money, like a modern-day Dynamite Kid. He hasn't quite delivered on the promise of his character in the ring yet, but the potential is there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tallmike Posted October 22, 2019 Report Share Posted October 22, 2019 He doesn't have the charisma to really pull it off though. Beyond being a weak promo, he just doesn't have that physical charisma that captivates. He's a guy who does moves. And he's more vicious as a heel when it comes to that, but not extraordinarily so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tallmike Posted October 22, 2019 Report Share Posted October 22, 2019 5 hours ago, C.S. said: Of all the ex-WWE guys now in AEW, PAC is firmly on the bottom. Eh, Justin Roberts has a contract too. Exactly what I want from my WWE alternative - everyone being announced like they're Jawwwwwn fucking Cena. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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