The Cancellation of Jim Cornette

[Sweet Brown Koko]

Count me in as well! Awesome recap.

BTW, I got to see Midnights vs Windham/Garvin live and that heat was INSANE! The crowd was so rabid that when Cornette cheated one too many times the audience lost it and they had to go home early. The babyfaces won by countout but The Midnights had to legit fight their way back to the dressing room. The match was in an auditorium with a stage so as the heels were fleeing to get on the stage and back to the dressing rooms Garvin grabbed the back of Eaton’s tights and pulled them down to moon the audience and send them home happy.

INSANE HEAT!!!

[clintthecrippler]

On 12/23/2020 at 4:06 PM, The Thread Killer said:

- Cornette says that Bray Wyatt's entrance and look are actually "cool." The problem is that his matches are always full of phony stuff, and he doesn't sell properly. Cornette praises the overall aesthetic and appearance of the Fiend, and that is his favorite part of the character. It’s just when he starts to work everything goes wrong.

Thank you so much for the lengthy recap here. I am pretty much off the Cornette bandwagon completely these days, but I have to admit that he managed to put into words my feelings on Bray Wyatt and The Fiend exactly.

I love the promos. I love the vignettes. I love the aesthetic of the character.

But he is essentially "Ultimate Warrior 2020" once the bell rings, but with incredibly awful booking and writing that the Ultimate Warrior didn't really have to fight to overcome - at least until the Papa Shango feud.

[MoS]

Is his problem really that he doesn't sell properly. How is a literal unkillable monster supposed to sell. 

[SirEdger]

Technically, if we look back at early Taker, he literally was an unkillable monster that you had to take drastic measures to beat. Yet, Taker has been universally praised, especially in that part of his WWE career. I can accept the notion that the in-ring skills of Bray will never match Taker's in terms of selling and everything but how was it acceptable for Taker to no-sell back in the day and not for The Fiend?

[Coffey]

The answer is probably honestly just that The Undertaker was doing it in 1990 & The Fiend is doing it in 2020. The Undertaker no selling was being done before the Monday Night Wars & like a decade before a lot of people were getting the internet. Bray Wyatt is doing it in an era when everyone has Twitter, Facebook, Instagram & a podcast. When wrestling is more accessible & more discussed than ever.

Granted, they started doing the Kane stuff in the Monday Night Wars era, so, maybe that is a moot point.

[sek69]

Also  when Taker started, we'd never really seen anything like that  before. I'll never forget watching Survivor Series when he debuted and the crowd was in legit awe at what they were looking at.  We've had 30 years of every supernatural gimmick being called the "next Undertaker" no matter if that's fair or not, and pretty much everyone is going to look like a failure in comparison. 

[Migs]

Taker also wasn't wrestling 12 PPV matches a year against top guys. His no selling was mainly against jobbers and JTTS. Even Taker's matches against top guys tended to be on the shorter side, which made the no selling less egregious - it's much easier to build a 10 minute match with a monster than a 20 minute one.

[C.S.]

7 hours ago, clintthecrippler said:

But he is essentially "Ultimate Warrior 2020" once the bell rings, but with incredibly awful booking and writing that the Ultimate Warrior didn't really have to fight to overcome - at least until the Papa Shango feud.

Warrior had much better matches than Bray Wyatt. Whether that's all down to the magic of Pat Patterson really doesn't matter.

3 hours ago, SirEdger said:

how was it acceptable for Taker to no-sell back in the day and not for The Fiend?

Taker was presented that way right out of the gate and had a look and aura no version of Wyatt has ever had.

Sure, you can argue that The Fiend was a refresh and has been presented as a monster since then, but you can't just take a magic eraser to the history of Bray Wyatt.

Plus, Bray lost to Goldberg decisively, which would've never happened with The Undertaker. To make the direct comparison I can think of, when Undertaker lost the WWF Title back to Hulk Hogan in a rematch, it was under a cloud of controversy and the title ended up being vacated.

Maybe an even better comparison: 1990 Undertaker never would've lost to 2015 Undertaker - but Bray Wyatt did, at WrestleMania 31.

[flyonthewall2983]

Apparently Andre was booked in the '91 Rumble to be eliminated by Taker with one blow. 

[sek69]

Yeah, in 1990 Taker was protected more than maybe any character in WWF/E history.  Now, a character like his would be on TV multiple times a week plus monthly PPV shows all while dealing with 50/50 booking,

I think this whole discussion may have just revealed how integral Pat Patterson was to the company. I'm fairly certain you can point to the time WWE creative started going downhill being about the same time Pat was no longer an everyday presence. 

[The Thread Killer]

On 12/23/2020 at 5:22 PM, Matt D said:

I’ll gladly take recaps of those other ones as well!

 

On 12/23/2020 at 6:05 PM, MoS said:

Co-signed

 

On 12/24/2020 at 12:08 AM, C.S. said:

What an absolutely tremendous recap, @The Thread Killer. Thank you!

I read it in Cornette's voice at times, so you did a really great job of capturing him.

Count me in as another one here who would love a catch-all recap thread from you about various personalities, podcasts, etc.

 

On 12/24/2020 at 12:38 AM, Sweet Brown Koko said:

Count me in as well! Awesome recap.

Okay, I started a thread.  Here it is!  The first recap I posted is the exclusive podcast where Eric Bischoff talks about the circumstances around his return and very quick departure from WWE in 2019.  Hope you guys enjoy.

[C.S.]

7 hours ago, The Thread Killer said:

Okay, I started a thread.  Here it is!  The first recap I posted is the exclusive podcast where Eric Bischoff talks about the circumstances around his return and very quick departure from WWE in 2019.  Hope you guys enjoy.

Thank you, brother. Looking forward to reading this later tonight. You've made a shitty day infinitely more bearable.

[The Thread Killer]

On 12/24/2020 at 12:38 AM, Sweet Brown Koko said:

BTW, I got to see Midnights vs Windham/Garvin live and that heat was INSANE! The crowd was so rabid that when Cornette cheated one too many times the audience lost it and they had to go home early. The babyfaces won by countout but The Midnights had to legit fight their way back to the dressing room. The match was in an auditorium with a stage so as the heels were fleeing to get on the stage and back to the dressing rooms Garvin grabbed the back of Eaton’s tights and pulled them down to moon the audience and send them home happy.

INSANE HEAT!!!

I just want to say that I am incredibly jealous that you got to see The Midnight Express with Jim Cornette vs. Barry Windham and Ronnie Garvin live.  I was a fan during that era and went to live shows all the time, but because I live in Toronto, JCP never ran shows up here.  All we got was WWF shows.  By the time WCW starting running shows in Toronto, it was the early 90's, not the peak 85-89 era.

So you got to see stuff like this...and I got Hulk Hogan vs. Killer Khan.

[Sweet Brown Koko]

LOL!

I also got to see Flair vs. Steamboat live as well. Best live match that I ever saw.

[Robert S]

I recently read the following Cornette quote:

Quote

Three of the wrestlers who comprise the wrestling talent in that thing I have the highest respect for their work and think they’re fantastic, but anybody that would take part in this thing for any price or for any contract is crazy. Anybody responsible for that fucking abomination should not only be shot but be forced to watch that abomination over and over again until they puke up their toenails before being shot. And they wonder why they can’t do any business? I think everyone involved should suffer the most horrible painful death possible because of the money they’re taking out of all our pockets who are trying to preserve this business that is rapidly going down the tubes.

Anyone wager a guess from when this comment is?

Spoiler

It's about the Beach Blast 93 mini-movie. I guess the last sentence gives is somewhat away. The quote is in the WON 93 yearbook.

 

[Dav'oh]

Everything old is new again...

I often have a 2.5-3hr each-way commute on the public transport (which I enjoy) so I'm going through the Meltzer thread.

"at this point the bitching is counter productive and not good for the guy. And as far as I'm concerned, it's getting old. The well of "DID YA HEAR WHAT ANGRY CORNETTE SAID" shit is dried up. You can only run that gimmick so long before you become a parody." Johnny Sorrow, July 3, 2013

"I really felt like Cornette was a man behind the times, and it was sort of sad hearing him talk." Guest Neil Santucci, July 3, 2013

"Cornette is reaching Tom Zenk levels for me now. Repeating the same points over and over. Angry and bitter. He's an all time great and I'm not saying he doesn't have valid arguments but he's really getting tough to listen to." Strummer, July 4 (Happy Belated Birthday, America!), 2013 

So now I've got, in my head, a dog chasing its own tail. Or Cornette's critics chasing him around a tree, except Cornette left to bank another cheque and the critics are still chasing air. I do understand the criticism, I just wonder if we haven't been banging our collective heads against a wall for at least seven years.

(Off-topic, the horses are racing at Bro Park tonite. I do trust the drug-testing is as stringent at Bro Park as everywhere else, but the Swedes, it turns out, are not big on naming their horses after pro-wrestlers so there's no betting to be had...)

*And many thanks to The Thread Killer for the excellent recaps. Cheers mate.

[MoS]

I am by no means a Jade fan, but of course Corny had to be racist and misogynistic while making his point

[Log]

Wow.  That's some bullshit.  Jade may not be able to work worth a damn (I haven't seen a match), but she's definitely attractive.  Stunningly so, IMO.

He's right that she's probably not ready for such a high-profile spot, but Jesus Jim, did you have to go with the "she must be sleeping with someone" crap?

I know Jim's gimmick is that he's a motor-mouth, but damn.  Dude needs to slow down and think about the shit coming out of his mouth.

[Coffey]

Yeah, I had to shut off the Royal Rumble Jim Cornette's Drive-Thru. Once it got to the women's Royal Rumble & he was rooting for Charlotte, whom apparently he didn't know had already not only been in a Rumble but won the fucking thing, but he also seemingly had a problem with Bianca, whom is like... one of the can't miss WWE women prospects, so I just don't know what the fuck that guy wants anymore. It's like, he goes off on these rants & tangents about how women's wrestling doesn't work... and then he puts over Rhea Ripley. I think he's just too far down his own gimmick hyperbole rabbit hole at this point. He contradicts himself with every second sentence.

[MoS]

He probably didn't like Bianca cuz that's one too many black women on his TV

[sek69]

Jim can't help being Jim. He could have said Jade is too green to be in the spot she is in and no one would have probably made too much fuss. He had to just take it to that extra tryhard level. 

I mean, first he argues she isn't attractive then ends with the "she's only here because someone wants to fuck her".....dude that's just lazy at this point.

[TheDuke]

I was thinking about Jim's constant criticism of Tony Khan, and I have to think Jim's not being realistic about what it would take for a wrestling program on TNT today to not lose money and not get cancelled. It's not the wrestling or the wrestlers that Jim likes, but The Young Bucks and Kenny OMEGA are the biggest American stars that Khan would be able to get. So I understand how catering to them, giving them control, and hiring their friends etc is just how the game is played if Khan wants to draw their fans and create some buzz in the community to draw new fans to his show. I think Jim's got to realize the Omega and the Bucks were the best bet to making some money in today's environment even if it's not the wrestling he likes.

[cm funk]

Jade Cargill is with Brandon Phillips (former all-star baseball player for the Cincinnati Reds).  They have a kid together.

Try again Jim.  You'd think being from Kentucky he'd know a little something about the Reds.  He's a legend in those parts

She IS way too green to be in this spot and this whole Shaq thing is a disaster IMO, but yea....

[El-P]

He's absolutely right on his take about what she is showing thus far : green as grass, totally in over her head, may be something big one day but not today nor tomorrow. He should have stopped right there.

And yeah, the Shaq storyline thus far has been a complete miss, probably the biggest miss on AEW's track record since the infamous Dark Order (before they got great) beatdown on the Young Bucks last year.

[Badlittlekitten]

Thing is, if Cargill had that body but happened to be white and blonde he'd be banging on about how she looks like a superstar (she does). But nah. Looks like Shelton Benjamin and doesn't get a chance.