Is the empire crumbling before our eyes?

[El-P]

50 minutes ago, KawadaSmile said:

As for the workers, I dunno. How much of the money are they seeing? Apparently it's a flat rate for the company, and how is the % split? I feel that it would be more appropriate to just hold the actual decision makers accountable rather than the workers, as we know they could get the shaft as soon as WWE saw fit.

Of course. I'm sure there are people very ambivalent about it in the bunch (if only because of the precedent of basically being taken hostage on an airport tarmac). But it would be nice sometime to hear voices raising against it from within the company. 

50 minutes ago, KawadaSmile said:

 The only one who's absolutely not going there is Sami Zayn.

And MVP. 

[Graham Crackers]

The one bit of nuance about these Saudi shows that I feel gets flattened is that the evils of the Saudi royal family are an extension of American imperialism. The sources of deeply entrenched Saudi power are the deals the house of Saud made with the British Empire, the Rockefellers, and the USA to secure the oil trade during the early twentieth century. Even now in the twenty first century Saudi Arabia in many ways represents a strategic beachhead for western power in the Middle East. The Saudi bombing campaigns in Yemen are executed with American manufactured weapons shipped to Saudi Arabia with explicit approval of the legislative and executive branches. It's got bipartisan support! The western press barely devotes any time to covering these bombing which have been going on for the last decade and it's hard to not view this silence as tacit approval by the American businesses that provide the advertising revenue for our press (and that's not to mention networks like NBC whose parent company also sells many products to the Saudi government).

What I'm trying to get across is that it's good that many here are weary of the Saudi government, but the tail doesn't wag the dog. I know that many here were comfortable criticizing the McMahon family's relationship with the Trump family/administration, but this is bigger than which administration is in the White House at a given time. It has to be about those Tribute to the Troops shows. I know they were alluded to earlier in reference to discussions of patriotism vs jingoism but it's also hard to see them as healthy and normal in the context of what happened to Ashley Massaro. It has to be about Fox, not only because of it's right wing stance but also because of Raytheon's position as one of Fox News' most consistent sponsors. It has to be about how GE owns NBC while also collaborating with the Saudi royal family. And ultimately it should be bigger than just your pro wrestling viewing habit.

Without organized boycotts, with real lists of demands, we're all just blowing smoke here. If it's WWE you're concerned with changing then the current Wendy's and Nestle boycotts could be a model. If it's Saudi Arabia then you can start by modeling it after the old Sun City boycotts or BDS but if you're really willing to interrogate that concern, it should probably alter the way you interact with western media in general.

[NintendoLogic]

4 hours ago, KawadaSmile said:

It does suck tho, even as I watch the matches through PERFECTLY LEGAL AND TOTALLY NOT PIRATED MEANS it's nearly impossible to not have this lingering feeling in the back of my mind: "I wish this was done elsewhere".

I never imagined that you of all people would be taking food off the Tribal Chief's table.

Quote

The only one who's absolutely not going there is Sami Zayn.

Kevin Owens as well.

[El-P]

1 hour ago, Graham Crackers said:

What I'm trying to get across is that it's good that many here are weary of the Saudi government, but the tail doesn't wag the dog. I know that many here were comfortable criticizing the McMahon family's relationship with the Trump family/administration, but this is bigger than which administration is in the White House at a given time. It has to be about those Tribute to the Troops shows. I know they were alluded to earlier in reference to discussions of patriotism vs jingoism but it's also hard to see them as healthy and normal in the context of what happened to Ashley Massaro. It has to be about Fox, not only because of it's right wing stance but also because of Raytheon's position as one of Fox News' most consistent sponsors. It has to be about how GE owns NBC while also collaborating with the Saudi royal family. And ultimately it should be bigger than just your pro wrestling viewing habit.

Absolutely.

[KawadaSmile]

20 minutes ago, NintendoLogic said:

I never imagined that you of all people would be taking food off the Tribal Chief's table.

Bruh the exchange rate is insane. 10,99 American Dollars is expensive - plus RAW and SD air on Fox Sports, so I would be paying for PLEs. The library is great, but work consumes most of my time.

[sek69]

3 hours ago, Graham Crackers said:

It has to be about how GE owns NBC while also collaborating with the Saudi royal family. And ultimately it should be bigger than just your pro wrestling viewing habit.

FYI, GE hasn't owned NBC since 2013, Comcast owns it now. 

[strobogo]

There aren't too many issues in the modern world that can't be traced back to British colonialism (and the rest of Europe, but especially British) and American hegemony in the vacuum after WW2. 

[sek69]

Apparently getting his WWE gig back didn't keep Braun from being a douchebag on Twitter, even Mustafa Ali was roasting him. Coming off as Not Mad Online while his co workers dunk on him paints a picture of a guy not too popular with the boys. 

[El-P]

That big dumb fuck is being owned not only by people outside of the company, but his co-workers too. He's such a complete douche. I have no idea why WWE brought him back, especially now that Triple H will be more open minded about the types of people he wants to push (Karrion Kross notwithstanding).

[NintendoLogic]

You would have hoped that headlining an event in a bar with an Uncle Kracker cover band after being unceremoniously dumped in a cost-cutting measure would have taught him some humility, but I guess not.

[Robert S]

18 hours ago, strobogo said:

There aren't too many issues in the modern world that can't be traced back to British colonialism (and the rest of Europe, but especially British) and American hegemony in the vacuum after WW2. 

Don't underestimate French colonialism, their effects on today's world are at least on par with what the Brits did.

[El-P]

13 minutes ago, Robert S said:

Don't underestimate French colonialism, their effects on today's world are at least on par with what the Brits did.

But yeah. Actually, France may have played a very active part in the corruption that led to Qatar getting the World Cup. The guy up there probably knows a few things about it...

France is also a top 3 weapons seller in the world (I think, at the very least top 5). Hurrah.

[The Thread Killer]

 

[DMJ]

I know Braun isn't the world's smartest or most eloquent man, but everyone jumping on him for what was clearly a tongue-in-cheek tweet is kinda cringe too.

Braun has said some really dumb shit in the past, but this, to me, read more like he was trying to do an FTR-like thing ("No flips, just fists"), but because he has such a shit reputation, it flopped hard. The reference to earning 47 stars? Clearly a joke. Referencing that too many of the "flippy guys" look like grocery store employees and couldn't pass the "Airport Test"? Seems perfectly within bounds from a kayfabe perspective and, if he really was trying to talk down about the smaller guys on the roster or in other companies, he did it in such a general way that it's barely a recognizable slight. 

Again, not defending every dumb thing Braun's ever tweeted, but this latest tweet was so clearly just a failed attempt at humor that I actually feel sorry for the guy a little. And, yeah, I know Strowman's involvement in the Control Your Narrative shit was lame, but it felt like he was just seeking some work at whoever was willing to pay him.

Meanwhile, Chris "My Wife Was Actually At The January 6th Failed Coup" Jericho piling on is his usual M.O of jumping on any opportunity to promote himself and Mustafa Ali, well, I like the guy, but, dude, Braun Strowman ain't one of the people who booked you on the midcard hamster wheel for the past 3 years. 
 

[El-P]

14 minutes ago, DMJ said:

Meanwhile, Chris "My Wife Was Actually At The January 6th Failed Coup" Jericho piling

Wait. Are you really gonna pull the "morality" card when Braun was just flexing about a match he did on a propaganda show for a criminal regime ? Really ? Sure, Jericho's politics are awful, but it what does it have to do with this ? Nothing, really. Considering his social media game, I'm not sure Braun's politics are very different btw, so, whatever on that front.

And if you think he's not serious about "Giants > flippy guys", think again. That guy is a giant untalented douche and he deserves all the shit he gets.

[sek69]

If Braun was a heel and he was doing some MJF style "living the gimmick on social media" bit, then fine. But he's not, and because of his prior nonsense he's going to get zero benefit of the doubt (nor does he deserve any).  He's not even someone like KO who's sometimes a smart ass on social media, he's a guy with a history of being a dickhole so anything that even approaches this is not going to get looked at as anything less than more dickhole behavior.

[NintendoLogic]

The fact that Braun's peers in the locker room interpreted his tweet as earnest rather than a clumsy attempt at humor tells me everything I need to know.

[Jesse Ewiak]

8 hours ago, El-P said:

Wait. Are you really gonna pull the "morality" card when Braun was just flexing about a match he did on a propaganda show for a criminal regime ? Really ? Sure, Jericho's politics are awful, but it what does it have to do with this ? Nothing, really. Considering his social media game, I'm not sure Braun's politics are very different btw, so, whatever on that front.

And if you think he's not serious about "Giants > flippy guys", think again. That guy is a giant untalented douche and he deserves all the shit he gets.

It's easy to be on the morally pure side when the things you support are niche enough nobody of note really cares (and yes, any non-WWE wrestling on the global scale is, niche.) Your random favorite indie band isn't going to be asked to do a concert for a random sheik like Beyonce or Rhianna either. 

If the SA gov't game a damn about AEW, Daddy Khan would have Tony accepting that check after taking away his Adderall prescription until he did so. 

It's pro wrestling - there are no moral people in this business in the long-term. 

[El-P]

That's twisted relativism and pathetic tribalism at its best.

"Hey, nobody cares about what you like, that's why they don't get the blood money, if they were successful they would get that opportunity and run with it."

I pass on the idiotic "It's easy to be on the morally pure side", when I just mentioned Jericho's awful politics and he's one of AEW biggest star, imagine the weekly cognitive dissonance (him and others). 

Guess what, if AEW would do the same shit, I would quit watching it in a heartbeat. Speaking of which :

23 minutes ago, Jesse Ewiak said:

Your random favorite indie band isn't going to be asked to do a concert for a random sheik like Beyonce or Rhianna either. 

Passing also on the ridiculous "random indie band" as an pro-wrestling equivalent of AEW (you realize they are the second biggest pro-wrestling company in the world, right ?), that does not constitute an excuse for Beyonce, Rihanna or WWE anyway. So : relativism, fanboyism and tribalism. Clap clap clap. 

23 minutes ago, Jesse Ewiak said:

It's pro wrestling - there are no moral people in this business in the long-term. 

You see, *that's* actually the easy stance. When basically used to just play the idiotic tribalist game of "What I like is more successful than what you like" like a 12 years old on Twitter, it's not just easy, it's downright embarrassing.

All of that about a topic which has nothing to do with this btw, Braun being a giant douchebag.

[NintendoLogic]

UFC's parent company severed ties with the Saudis and returned a $400 million investment after the Khashoggi killing. And Tiger Woods turned down a high nine-figure deal to join LIV Golf. So no, not everybody in sports and entertainment is completely amoral.

[El-P]

Indeed. Also, you gotta love hypothetical whataboutism. The ultimate piss-poor non-argument.

[WingedEagle]

52 minutes ago, NintendoLogic said:

UFC's parent company severed ties with the Saudis and returned a $400 million investment after the Khashoggi killing. And Tiger Woods turned down a high nine-figure deal to join LIV Golf. So no, not everybody in sports and entertainment is completely amoral.

Perhaps we want to pump the brakes on UFC's righteousness.  They covid concerns and have openly courted this country's former president like some kind of saint.  They just have a different read on what's #bestforbusiness.

[El-P]

And so WWE confirmed this event was their most viewed Saudi show. Like I said, normalization and gobbling up propaganda. Should we call that pro-wrestlingwashing or sports-entertainmentwashing now ? I dunno. Quite the business model.

[KawadaSmile]

41 minutes ago, El-P said:

And so WWE confirmed this event was their most viewed Saudi show. Like I said, normalization and gobbling up propaganda. Should we call that pro-wrestlingwashing or sports-entertainmentwashing now ? I dunno. Quite the business model.

We should just call it straight up propaganda, sadly. I mean, World Cup '78 was held in Argentina during a military dictatorship (the home team won) and Cruyff refused to participate, as it was gonna be just propaganda (as the WC usually tends to be, regardless of the host country's political state). Stuff like this is normalized because it has been normalized long ago. 

The '34 edition of the World Cup was propaganda for Mussolini-led Fascist Italy. Sports are just that closely linked to whatever you want to promote in your country.

In fact, I would argue that we have more voices being heard going against this kind of thing than before. Maybe we also have more people supporting what is clearly State propaganda? I dunno. 

[El-P]

1 hour ago, KawadaSmile said:

Sports are just that closely linked to whatever you want to promote in your country

The history of sports is absolutely fascinating on that matter. Visiting the museum of nazi history in Berlin a few years back, there was an exposition about sports under the nazi regime, and it's amazing how the representation of athletes then has influenced the entire way sports are presented by the entertainment industry. And really, Pierre de Coubertin loved those 1936 games. In a way, and as a mostly non-sport fan, pro-wrestling is kinda the "ideal" version of sports for a society of entertainment, because it's (almost) honest about what it is. 

1 hour ago, KawadaSmile said:

In fact, I would argue that we have more voices being heard going against this kind of thing than before. Maybe we also have more people supporting what is clearly State propaganda? I dunno. 

Probably both, considering the polarization of the world thanks (no) to social medias. I can't wait to see the new IWC Twitter game under Elon Musk (NOPE).