Is the empire crumbling before our eyes?

[sek69]

On the positive side, there apparently were large WE WANT SAMI chants from the crowd which is amazing when you think about it.

[El-P]

9 minutes ago, sek69 said:

From a purely cynical standpoint,  MBS is super popular among young folks in Saudi

Well, except the LGBT ones who are thrown in prison of course.

The level of straight propaganda nukes the first show they did.

"His excellency"... Introducing, straight pieces of shit, husband and wife. Nothing but contempt for these people. 

[sek69]

2 hours ago, El-P said:

Well, except the LGBT ones who are thrown in prison of course.

Of course, but MBS loosened up enough restrictions for the vast majority of Saudi youth to see him as a breath of fresh air after being ruled by strict old men since the Grand Mosque Seizure in 1979. He may be a monster, but the man knows how to PLAY THE GAME-UH and was able to read the room that the public was looking for changes in government. 

[El-P]

The "normalization" of these shows is a huge embarrassment and black mark for pro-wrestling fans. 

[KawadaSmile]

2 hours ago, El-P said:

The "normalization" of these shows is a huge embarrassment and black mark for pro-wrestling fans. 

It's bad, and to me it really doesn't stray too far from jingoist Tribute to the Troops shows (as they end up being more like pure propaganda, sometimes war propaganda even). Cena was having a whole 'Murica Fuck Yeah entrance against Rusev, there were many Soviet/Muslim stereotypes as heels etc, so the point is that actual US geopolitics spilling over to a big live entertainment business doesn't reaaaally surprise me, even if it is a horrible thing.

[NintendoLogic]

The big difference is that Tribute to the Troops and the like were at least partially motivated by sincere patriotic (or jingoistic if you prefer) sentiment. The Saudi shows are pure money grabs.

[The Thread Killer]

9 minutes ago, NintendoLogic said:

The big difference is that Tribute to the Troops and the like were at least partially motivated by sincere patriotic (or jingoistic if you prefer) sentiment. The Saudi shows are pure money grabs.

I was going to say. I have a good buddy who was in the military, and it meant the world to those guys to have WWE come over and do a show for them during the holiday season. They supposedly did a bunch of signings and other stuff and were really nice to the troops. That’s pretty much in the same spirit as other celebrities going over there to entertain the troops. There’s nothing wrong with that. That’s a far cry from the Saudi shows which are purely being done for money and nothing else.

[Coffey]

If some dude wants to give me ten million dollars to give him a gimmick belt & call him his excellency, I'm down. I don't care who you've killed or what people on the internet say about me. C.R.E.A.M.

Wu-Tang is for the children.

[sek69]

6 hours ago, The Thread Killer said:

That’s a far cry from the Saudi shows which are purely being done for money and nothing else.

For WWE it's money, for MBS it's a way to sportswash all their actions and make Saudi seem like it's not really that bad of a place. 

Also I'm not sure if it's so much "normalized" or fans just realizing WWE is going to do this no matter what anyone says. It sucks, but if you're going to demand ethics in your entertainment sources you're going to be very very bored. 

[Dav'oh]

3 hours ago, Coffey said:

If some dude wants to give me ten million dollars to give him a gimmick belt & call him his excellency, I'm down.

"We've already established what you are. Now we're just haggling over the price" springs lightly to mind 

[Zoo Enthusiast]

MBS, thank you for the house, brother.

[sek69]

That reminds me, I wonder who gets the gate money for the Saudi shows. It's been stated that WWE only gets the flat fee the government pays them (and merch sales I guess), and even a giant wrestling gate would be equivalent to loose change found in the couch for MBS, so where does it go? 

[The Thread Killer]

2 hours ago, sek69 said:

It sucks, but if you're going to demand ethics in your entertainment sources you're going to be very very bored. 

I believe you have hit the nail on the head.

I love the NFL and I will probably never stop watching Football, but you have to come to terms with the fact that the majority of the owners are scumbags who are raking in millions of dollars at the expense of the players, the majority of whom are visible minorities that are literally crippling themselves and willingly giving themselves CTE on a weekly basis, for our “entertainment.” Yes, the majority of them are well compensated financially for it, but that doesn’t make it any less unsettling. And that’s not even touching the woeful history of the players when it comes to using steroids or domestic violence. But I am still watching, and so are a hell of a lot of other people. 

And if you’re an NBA fan…well, they’re comfortably in bed with China, a country who can certainly match up with Saudi Arabia when it comes to human rights abuses. But people still happily watch Basketball.

I definitely would not want to look under the bed, or in the closet, or in the medicine cabinet of the majority of my favourite actors or musicians, either. Nor most of my favourite writers, when you get down to it.

I certainly understand why people object to WWE being in bed with the Saudis. But I am getting old, and jaded, and at this point I just can’t muster up much outrage for anything anymore. I fully admit that when they decided to get into business with Saudi Arabia that was one of the deciding factors in my decision to cancel my WWE Network subscription. But if I am not paying for it, and I can still watch it for free, I am not really accomplishing anything by not watching it. 

Quite honestly, if you look hard enough you can find reasons to get outraged regarding pretty much any form of entertainment or sports. I literally just don’t care anymore. Like everybody else, I have my limits. I don’t watch Chris Benoit matches anymore. I am a huge fan of stand-up comedy and I can’t watch Bill Cosby anymore, which sucks because I thought he was a genius. But honestly that is more because it makes me uncomfortable. I guess it’s up to each individual to decide where their own personal line is that they don’t want to cross. I don’t begrudge anybody for watching anything at this point. Just can’t be bothered.

[WingedEagle]

14 hours ago, El-P said:

The "normalization" of these shows is a huge embarrassment and black mark for pro-wrestling fans. 

100%.  On the other hand, the demographics of most pro wrestling fans likely render this a "smart" business move.  #murrica

[Johnny Sorrow]

4 hours ago, WingedEagle said:

100%.  On the other hand, the demographics of most pro wrestling fans likely render this a "smart" business move.  #murrica

Most people aren't aware of the Saudis and their crimes or don't care, not just wrestling fans. Don't they also book huge music acts and tons of celebrities?We still kiss their ass despite 9/11. WWE is just another company doing business with them. I don't like it. I don't watch the Saudi shows just for my own little psychic well being as I deal with the fact that everything we are entertained by is and always has been tainted with awful, terrible things.

[El-P]

9 hours ago, sek69 said:

Also I'm not sure if it's so much "normalized" or fans just realizing WWE is going to do this no matter what anyone says. It sucks, but if you're going to demand ethics in your entertainment sources you're going to be very very bored. 

That's just plain relativism. Not everything is the same. Doing nothing about it, or even finding excuses, is a super comfortable stance. If even a third the WWE audience would protest against this and be vocal, at least there would be serious talk and awareness about it, of nothing else. I feel like despite the vomit inducing propaganda, the Overton's window has been wide open to the point of no one is caring anymore and the only thing we hear is about how great Logan Paul is. And when Pride Month is gonna be there, WWE is gonna be all rainbows and shit and people are gonna talk about how great and progressive all this is and how important this is and how homophobia is really bad you know. So no, it's not all the same. This is World Cup in Qatar level of gross. 

6 hours ago, WingedEagle said:

100%.  On the other hand, the demographics of most pro wrestling fans likely render this a "smart" business move.  #murrica

It's very hard for me to not feel completely ashamed of being a pro-wrestling fans right now, honestly. Because of its fans. Because of the workers who don't dare to say a fucking word (hey Roman, the guy with the weigh, don't you open your mouth, we could mix you up with someone with actual ethics). And I don't want to hear the embarrassing music about "Oh, but you would take the money". Nope, not everybody is like that, actually, as shocking as it is. And plus, these people don't *need* the money. Logan Paul ? Brock Lesnar ? Are we fucking kidding ? Even the undercarders don't need to because WWE as a company does not need to either. Anyway. I guess pro-wrestling deserves its audience. It's just not fun at all being part of it sometimes.

[El-P]

1 hour ago, Johnny Sorrow said:

Most people aren't aware of the Saudis and their crimes or don't care, not just wrestling fans. 

I mean, people on Twitter were all "lol" and "wtf" about the way Claudio pronounced Ian Riccaboni's name. That struck me as an amazing occurence of why the rest of the world think what they think of the USA. Claudio's an Italian-speaking Swiss, and so he actually pronounced Riccaboni the Italian way. I was just shaking my head at the amazing display of proud ignorance. Riccaboni even went on Twitter to explain it was actually the best way.

There is actual actions taken against the Qatar World Cup, actual boycots from some supporters organisations. When football fans are better than pro-wrestling fans, well.

[sek69]

I suppose the last 8 years or so of seeing the most horrible people get to do whatever they want with practically zero consequences have jaded me to these kind of things.  I fully acknowledge it's horrible but at this point getting mad about it honestly feels like pissing into the wind. I'm kind of envious of folks who can still muster anger at this point, I think I've just reached a level of outrage burnout.  Probably not in no small part that in a week or so there's a good chance my state will be represented in the Senate by Doctor Fucking Oz. 

 

[El-P]

25 minutes ago, sek69 said:

I fully acknowledge it's horrible but at this point getting mad about it honestly feels like pissing into the wind. I'm kind of envious of folks who can still muster anger at this point

Getting mad is not always a choice. I feel like I'm getting madder by the day about what happens (again, all hail to Brazil for the little bit of positive news this week). Or more depressed. But if one is gonna kill me, then I'd rather live mad.

[Dav'oh]

41 minutes ago, El-P said:

I guess pro-wrestling deserves its audience

There's a sanctimony I hear from too many wrestlling fans, "Wrestling fans are the worst!", with "Except me!" being very much implied. I've certainly not seen "Including me!", ever.

You're part of pro-wrestling's audience. Does pro-wrestling deserve you, brother El-P?

 

 

[El-P]

54 minutes ago, Dav'oh said:

There's a sanctimony I hear from too many wrestlling fans, "Wrestling fans are the worst!"

Considering the amazing amount of stupid bullshit, propaganda gobling and total lack of empathy displayed over the last 24 hours, yeah, that seems like a reasonable take. Hell, football fans are displaying way more ethics questioning around the World Cup in Qatar. 

51 minutes ago, Dav'oh said:

Does pro-wrestling deserve you, brother El-P?

I take the 5th, or as Coach TK would say "I have no comment on that."

[El-P]

And really now, just a few months ago : "Thank you Vince" chants. Only in pro-wrestling.

[Embrodak]

I think Fetterman would have curb stomped Oz were it not for the stroke, but alas, ableism is one of the last -isms people allow themselves without much reflection.

[strobogo]

The Saudi propaganda isn't really trying to whitewash its reputation to viewers or the West or anywhere else. It's all directed towards other sports, entertainment, and advertising for brands that might feel squeamish doing business with KSA. Americans are not going to take a vacation to Saudi Arabia, but KSA showing the money they'll throw to have gigantic stadium shows shows the NFL there is money to be made having a game or two every season.

[KawadaSmile]

5 hours ago, El-P said:

Getting mad is not always a choice. I feel like I'm getting madder by the day about what happens (again, all hail to Brazil for the little bit of positive news this week). Or more depressed. But if one is gonna kill me, then I'd rather live mad.

No problem bubba.

 

But I feel ya. It's easy to feel alienated by a product which is just diametrically opposite to your world views - watching the World Cup would be tough even without being held in Qatar, as CBF is just full of shit, but given the human rights violations going on at scary levels, it's even harder to care about the event as a consumer.

As for the workers, I dunno. How much of the money are they seeing? Apparently it's a flat rate for the company, and how is the % split? I feel that it would be more appropriate to just hold the actual decision makers accountable rather than the workers, as we know they could get the shaft as soon as WWE saw fit. It does suck tho, even as I watch the matches through PERFECTLY LEGAL AND TOTALLY NOT PIRATED MEANS it's nearly impossible to not have this lingering feeling in the back of my mind: "I wish this was done elsewhere". The only one who's absolutely not going there is Sami Zayn.