Is the empire crumbling before our eyes?

[sek69]

It is interesting to see Vince's response to AEW (that the fans have clearly showed they prefer to NXT), is to make it like the 80s WWF all over again. I wonder if it ever dawns on him that the precise reason AEW kicked NXT's ass is that they were offering something new and different rather than the same old formula. People were tired of only having pro wrestling as seen through the lens of a guy in his 70s with a muscle fetish and narrow views on who could be "allowed" to be a star. 

Dave made a point to mention Bruce isn't there to offer any new ideas, just to make sure what Vince wants gets carried out. The whole system seems to be built around making sure Vince's ideas never get challenged until it creates an "Emperor's New Clothes" situation where everyone in Vince's inner circle is just sitting there pretending his balls aren't out there waving in the breeze. 

[MoS]

It is not remotely surprising that Vince when challenged has gone back to size. He has always done that, as do all promoters that have had tremendous success with one idea. However, having all the size on the roster won't help if you don't book wrestlers like stars who are gracing us all with their appearance. The trend of wrestlers being just thrilled to be in WWE because it is their childhood dream. Compare how Vince used to treat his wrestlers like God amongst men in the 80s, like the coolest, smartest athletes in the world in the 90s, and compare it to how all full-time wrestlers are treated in 2021 WWE. The flipside to having a billion dollar brand that can sell 50,000 ticket to an event just on its own name is that Vince feels no need to book any wrestler as special or with a huge aura. And why would he? He can achieve the same result just putting over the brand he has spent his entire life building.

[sek69]

It's not surprising, no, but the funny part is back in the 80s people would push back on his ideas and you know in the 'Tude Era Russo wasn't just blindly going along with everything, it's really only been in the last 20 years no-real-competition era where Vince has completely cut himself off from anyone not just a 100% yes man. I'm sure it's not a coincidence that the product has been on a rocket ship to bland sameness since then. 

[Jmare007]

2 hours ago, sek69 said:

It is interesting to see Vince's response to AEW (that the fans have clearly showed they prefer to NXT), is to make it like the 80s WWF all over again. I wonder if it ever dawns on him that the precise reason AEW kicked NXT's ass is that they were offering something new and different rather than the same old formula. People were tired of only having pro wrestling as seen through the lens of a guy in his 70s with a muscle fetish and narrow views on who could be "allowed" to be a star. 

 

I don't think NXT was the "same old formula" and something that represented the vision of Vince at all. I mean yeah, there's very clearly a big group of people  that are tired of said vision and finally found something that suits them better in AEW. But I wouldn't say that was the reason NXT lost the "war".

[sek69]

NXT became noticeably more WWE-like once it was clear they were going to be the hammer used to beat down AEW. A lot of what drew people to NXT in the first place was taken away, and of course a lot of the reason was they were the in-house alternative to Raw/SD and someone came along that did it better.

[Strummer]

Wonder if this will affect the women's division as well. Will they go back to the divas era or a combination of the divas/modern era? Or stay course?

[strobogo]

A big man of today isn't anywhere near the size of a big man in the 90s and especially 80s. Those size dudes are not going into pro wrestling anymore and I don't think WWE is going to be able to recruit them from other sports anymore no matter how much they try. A dude like Kross is portrayed as this huge monster but he's like the same size as a Mike Enos. 

[rovert]

4 hours ago, Strummer said:

Wonder if this will affect the women's division as well. Will they go back to the divas era or a combination of the divas/modern era? Or stay course?

There's a lot of age-based fear mainly. Also talent relations letting him "models" with terrible attitudes and NXT finally signing Tessa Blanchard as they don't know about her locker room rep.

A hard and fast no one under 30 rule would been a disaster for NXT viewers and the wrestlers themselves initially at least:

 

[sek69]

6 minutes ago, rovert said:

Also talent relations letting him "models" with terrible attitudes and NXT finally signing Tessa Blanchard as they don't know about her locker room rep.

NXT finally signed her? Well I suppose if you're going to blow the place up tossing in one extra grenade won't matter much. 

[rovert]

4 minutes ago, sek69 said:

NXT finally signed her? Well I suppose if you're going to blow the place up tossing in one extra grenade won't matter much. 

NO! Signing a Tessa as the new regime scouts her and signs her not knowing her rep.

[sek69]

1 minute ago, rovert said:

NO! Signing a Tessa as the new regime scouts her and signs her not knowing her rep.

Funny thing, I'd imagine the people who would be directly involved in hiring her like Vince and Bruce would be aware of her rep. 

[FMKK]

Cutting everyone over thirty seems like a bad idea for a developmental brand. You need solid workers to help your fitness models and college football washouts learn how to work and also to make sure that the TV is still watchable while USA network pays millions of dollars a year for it.

[NotJayTabb]

Yeah, even if you don't ever plan on using (for example) Mercedes Martinez on the main roster, your freshly trained new wrestlers will need a player-coach to guide them through their initial matches. Same reason I thought Chris Hero being released felt odd.

[KawadaSmile]

Chris Hero being fired felt odd the first time around. On his second turn, he just felt lost in the shuffle. Who was he going to coach, even? There were so many experienced indie talents on his second rodeo that he felt completely redundant on that "trainer" position.

[DMJ]

I doubt that the age thing will play too big of a role for the women's division. But that doesn't mean there probably won't continue to be, as there has always been, a specific look that they tend to push more. I know Shotzi has her supporters here, but I don't see her getting a real push. I think Vince sees women like her - and Ember and Ruby Riott before her - as just this generation's Luna Vachons. 

I predict we will see an increase in fitness models/bodybuilders, etc. rather than them going out and signing trained wrestlers or international talent. More Alexa Blisses, less Becky Lynches.

But, again, what the WWE should be thinking is that hard-and-fast rules are not the point. Its not size or age or even a particular body type, its how they're utilized and if they're given an opportunity to shine.

Eddie Kingston wouldn't check off a single box for Vince, Bruce, Dunn, or even Triple H, but there was a time last year - even if it was maybe fleeting - that he was the most talked-about, must-see performer in  any US company. Like, hand him a mic and he's going to talk you into thinking he's a threat against Roman Reigns, Kenny Omega, anyone. 

[C.S.]

1 hour ago, DMJ said:

Eddie Kingston wouldn't check off a single box for Vince, Bruce, Dunn, or even Triple H, but there was a time last year - even if it was maybe fleeting - that he was the most talked-about, must-see performer in  any US company. Like, hand him a mic and he's going to talk you into thinking he's a threat against Roman Reigns, Kenny Omega, anyone. 

As beloved as the brief YouTube era of NWA Powerrr was before they pandemic, they clearly had no idea what they had in Eddie Kingston. In a perfect world without a pandemic, Billy and Lagnana would've eventually bought a clue, and Eddie would've been the one to dethrone Aldis. If I'm Billy, I'd work out a deal to send Eddie through the Forbidden Door to do just that. He is an NWA Powerrr "original," so why not?

[Strummer]

Loss has a great thread on twitter about the changes being made to NXT and how it relates to WWE's thought process/philosophy since the beginning of the last decade.

great stuff

[SirEdger]

3 hours ago, DMJ said:

I predict we will see an increase in fitness models/bodybuilders, etc. rather than them going out and signing trained wrestlers or international talent. More Alexa Blisses, less Becky Lynches.
 

The thing is that truthfully, they lucked into finding people outside of the world of wrestlng like Alexa and Bianca Belair (who was doing track & field before getting into wrestling) who were able to develop solid skillsets and they pretty much became exceptions to the rule. I just hope that they don't completely do away with more natural wrestlers.

[sek69]

The problem with WWE's strategy is while of course it's more in line with what Vince is historically comfortable, but wrestling fans have moved past that decades ago. No one is going to be impressed by big tall muscle men that can't wrestle for shit. So Vince can wrap himself in his security blanket of living like it's still 1985, and any wrestler fans actually want to see can find success in AEW/ROH/Impact/MLW/NWA/whoever else pops up. 

[FMKK]

The other problem is that he’s had people who fit those roles and whiffed on them too. Braun Strowman was always pushed to a decent level but there was a window for him to be a proper top star and they totally sidelined him and devalued him with comedy shit. Mandy Rose is like the absolute epitome of what you’d expect Vince to want and she did the horrendous Otis programme and then nothing else and has now been demoted to NXT.

[Coffey]

6 hours ago, DMJ said:

I doubt that the age thing will play too big of a role for the women's division. But that doesn't mean there probably won't continue to be, as there has always been, a specific look that they tend to push more. I know Shotzi has her supporters here, but I don't see her getting a real push. I think Vince sees women like her - and Ember and Ruby Riott before her - as just this generation's Luna Vachons. 

Yeah, Ember Moon is beautiful, anyone that saw her in her Athena days can attest to that... but Vince McMahon is the guy that Jim Ross had to explain to that some people would find Gail Kim attractive, so it's probably a lost cause at this point. Her being over thirty is probably not going to do her favors now either, let alone the fact she's gotten injured & not exactly been used well while around the last several years either. 

Also it's not a good sign that they brought back Johnny Ace either. I expect a lot more Eva Marie molds. 

[Jmare007]

4 hours ago, sek69 said:

The problem with WWE's strategy is while of course it's more in line with what Vince is historically comfortable, but wrestling fans have moved past that decades ago. No one is going to be impressed by big tall muscle men that can't wrestle for shit. So Vince can wrap himself in his security blanket of living like it's still 1985, and any wrestler fans actually want to see can find success in AEW/ROH/Impact/MLW/NWA/whoever else pops up. 

WWE will always find way to fuck their talent up with horrible booking because that's just how WWE works now. But why are you assuming that Vince will go back to 1985 when Vince would be more than happy to have another Roman Reigns. And I hope we all agree he's a great wrestler alongside having the look Vince likes.

Hell, Cena may be more "1985" and he became a great worker for several years. They found a way to put Braun in positions to have great matches (though granted, Roman was a huge part in making those good-very good-awesome). It's not like they people don't gravitate towards those guys either.

The problem with WWE's strategy is that they don't really have a strategy and that comes back to bite them in the ass constantly.

[joeg]

26 minutes ago, Jmare007 said:

WWE will always find way to fuck their talent up with horrible booking because that's just how WWE works now.

The problem with WWE's strategy is that they don't really have a strategy and that comes back to bite them in the ass constantly.

Exactly.

Just wanted to add something to this. If a wrestler has been in NXT for a few years without any main roster plans, and is over 30, I would expect the wrestler would want to be be released. WWE had over 300 guys on the roster, probably 280 of which they have no plan for. If you are in the prime of your career and not being used or paid big money, you would want to go somewhere else. 

Having no strategy is why WWE is always reactive rather than proactive. When AEW was starting up and NJPW was expanding into the US, WWE tripled the size of their roster just to take workers off the market. Now 3 years later they are trying to undo that by releasing everybody and putting arbetrary restrictions on age and size. 5 years from now they will over correct again when somebody somebody they passed on for being too old, too small, or too foreign becomes huge in AEW.  

[C.S.]

Guess what day it is?

Today is Arrogant Shield Assholes Bury Their Former Co-Workers Day

Roman Reigns on CM Punk: "When it comes down to it, CM Punk was not as good or as over as John Cena, he wasn’t as good or as over, didn’t move the needle like The Rock, it just was what it was." (Source)

Seth Rollins on Bray Wyatt: "Bray Wyatt. God, I miss him. But I wouldn’t say that I drew much inspiration from him. He was way out there with the stuff he wanted to do character wise, and it worked for him. For me, not so much. That’s not really where I sit when it comes to characters in wrestling. but it worked well for him." (Source)

[MoS]

I saw Roman get heat from some fans on Twitter for this, but I am not sure what people were expecting him to say. He is WWE's top guy, and he is also a heel. One reason he is a heel is because he used to get booed by fans who wanted Punk and Bryan in the top spot. He still gets booed by such fans to the extent they still attend shows. Why wouldn't he play to them while still defending his promotion? He can't say "Yeah they fucked Punk bad with their terrible booking, just like they fucked my face run bad with their terrible booking. My spiritual brother!" He has to take the promotion's side. 

Rollins is a dork, but he did get fucked bad by the Fiend so I think he gets a pass here.