Coffey Posted July 20, 2014 Report Share Posted July 20, 2014 Ah, so some light hearted gay bashing then, that's perfectly acceptable I guess. Man, you would have HATED stand-up comedy in the 80's! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillThompson Posted July 20, 2014 Report Share Posted July 20, 2014 Right, today I could see it being more offensive but in that time it came off as a rib that Patterson had to have been on. You really think he would've done an evening gown match if he wasnt in on it? He would have done one because it was his job, because to everyone he denied that he was gay, and because being seen as not being one of the boys was not something he could handle. It's no different than when the gay worker in the office turns his/her back to gay jokes and such, making waves can bring about more problems/pain for them and thus they avoid it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpchicago23 Posted July 20, 2014 Report Share Posted July 20, 2014 It's not gay "bashing". It's ribbing one of the boys. Gay bashing would've been not accepting him for being gay and looking down on him for it. So you're saying gay people aren't allowed to be made fun of just like everyone else? It's like making fun of a buddy for liking big girls or Tony Atlas and his foot fetish. It's part of the rib Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillThompson Posted July 20, 2014 Report Share Posted July 20, 2014 Ah, so some light hearted gay bashing then, that's perfectly acceptable I guess. Man, you would have HATED stand-up comedy in the 80's! I'll be clear here, I have no problem with anything being used as humor. The key is to straddle the line. When Louie CK jokes about homosexuality there's no sense of malice behind his jokes. He's an artist using his art to explore a topic and the humor that can be found in it. JR is a homophobe making common denominator gay jokes because he thinks it's okay to make fun of the only gay man he probably knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpchicago23 Posted July 20, 2014 Report Share Posted July 20, 2014 I think it was very well known in the locker room that he was gay. He never hid it amongst the guys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillThompson Posted July 20, 2014 Report Share Posted July 20, 2014 It's not gay "bashing". It's ribbing one of the boys. Gay bashing would've been not accepting him for being gay and looking down on him for it. So you're saying gay people aren't allowed to be made fun of just like everyone else? It's like making fun of a buddy for liking big girls or Tony Atlas and his foot fetish. It's part of the rib If you're equating gay with having a foot fetish or liking big girls then there's really no point in continuing this conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petey Posted July 20, 2014 Report Share Posted July 20, 2014 It wouldn't surprise me if Pat encouraged the behavior. It's wrestling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillThompson Posted July 20, 2014 Report Share Posted July 20, 2014 I think it was very well known in the locker room that he was gay. He never hid it amongst the guys He never admitted it, that's the important part for him as a gay person. Everyone in the world can know, but if he hasn't come out and admitted it to the people in his community them using what they know about him is even worse for him to have to deal with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpchicago23 Posted July 20, 2014 Report Share Posted July 20, 2014 It's not that being gay is equivalent its that its a preference that some people will find humor in. If you make a dig at someone that doesn't always mean it has to be hateful. I'm sure if Patterson told JR that was enough, it would've been the end of it. You're reading into something that isn't there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpchicago23 Posted July 20, 2014 Report Share Posted July 20, 2014 You do know that he had many of the boys over to his house that knew his husband right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted July 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2014 In Bill's defense, the political dynamic of situations was like that was that they'd run it by the guy first, usually in front of a group of people, and he would have to say yes or risk being branded someone who couldn't take a joke and get all sorts of ribs off camera. But at the same time, I'm not going to criticize someone too much for something they said years ago that they probably wouldn't say today. Jim Ross has come out in support of gay marriage at this point. HHH did an entire segment suggesting Kurt Angle was gay and got the entire audience to start a "Faggot!" chant. In 2013, he and Stephanie did photos for the No H8 campaign. People change, and on top of that, morality in wrestling has ALWAYS been relative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpchicago23 Posted July 20, 2014 Report Share Posted July 20, 2014 Good point Loss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillThompson Posted July 20, 2014 Report Share Posted July 20, 2014 You do know that he had many of the boys over to his house that knew his husband right? But he never admitted it publicly, that's huge for a gay person. I've known two people in my life who killed themselves over the struggle to admit they were gay. Didn't matter that everyone in their inner circle knew they were gay, or that in the case of one of them we had met a couple of her girlfriends over the years. They had never outright told us and admitted to the world that they were gay, the weight of "officially" coming out was too heavy for them to take. I've read too many notes from gay people over the years that detail nodding/laughing at gay jokes being told by others and then crying later over the same jokes when they were finally alone. It possibly being a rib doesn't excuse the behavior just like it doesn't excuse Dennis Condrey orally raping Phil Hickerson for the sake of a rib. This is a part of wrestling culture and fandom that really needs to change, and sadly it appears that it hasn't. That's all I have to say on this matter. I said earlier that I didn't want to get into it to the point where we were in non-wrestling territory, and that's the point the conversation has reached. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovert Posted July 20, 2014 Report Share Posted July 20, 2014 It wouldn't surprise me if Pat encouraged the behavior. It's wrestling. Yeah locker room banter being played out on screen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveJRogers Posted July 20, 2014 Report Share Posted July 20, 2014 You do know that he had many of the boys over to his house that knew his husband right? But he never admitted it publicly, that's huge for a gay person. I've known two people in my life who killed themselves over the struggle to admit they were gay. Didn't matter that everyone in their inner circle knew they were gay, or that in the case of one of them we had met a couple of her girlfriends over the years. They had never outright told us and admitted to the world that they were gay, the weight of "officially" coming out was too heavy for them to take. I've read too many notes from gay people over the years that detail nodding/laughing at gay jokes being told by others and then crying later over the same jokes when they were finally alone. On the flip side, I didn't know Sally Ride was a lesbian until people on social media used her passing as part of clamoring on for gay marriage laws (essentially it was a shame that her long time partner would never get the same benefits that a married couple would have). I didn't know Jack Larson, guy who played Jimmy Olsen in the old 1950s Superman live action show, was gay until I saw it in passing a "what he is doing now" blurb in a book on Superman in movies & TV. I was taken aback slightly in a "well, I hope Larson gave the author permission to out him" way (akin to that Kevin Kline In & Out movie that was based off of Tom Hanks mentioning the homosexuality of an old teacher of his when giving his Oscar winning speech for...I want to say it was for Philadelphia), but then I figured that's about as normal as a hetro relationship and a good sign as any about how far things have come in that regard. Sean Hayes and David Hyde Pierce both had given sharp "ITS NO ONE'S DAMN BUSINESS" any time the subject came up during their runs on Will & Grace and Frasier respectively and only revealing their preferences after the shows had ended due to way too many questions based on the way they portrayed Jack and Niles respectively. Granted, yes I am referring to noted people and entertainers, the latter category of which is where Pat Patterson belongs, so it probably is easier for them to exist as they are without formerly and publicly coming out, and you are talking about something starkly different, but there are those out there that do feel that it is a private matter and shouldn't be made for public knowledge (even if its just admitting it to everyone they know well). Hell, you can say the same about how many times we don't know an entertainer's or athlete's civilian husband/wife and family life if that is from, or is in, a different world than one in the public eye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawho5 Posted July 20, 2014 Report Share Posted July 20, 2014 I think this conversation is venturing into one of those political hot points that we seem to try to avoid here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted July 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2014 Good call. Pro Wrestling Only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummer Posted July 20, 2014 Report Share Posted July 20, 2014 In Bill's defense, the political dynamic of situations was like that was that they'd run it by the guy first, usually in front of a group of people, and he would have to say yes or risk being branded someone who couldn't take a joke and get all sorts of ribs off camera. But at the same time, I'm not going to criticize someone too much for something they said years ago that they probably wouldn't say today. Jim Ross has come out in support of gay marriage at this point. HHH did an entire segment suggesting Kurt Angle was gay and got the entire audience to start a "Faggot!" chant. In 2013, he and Stephanie did photos for the No H8 campaign. People change, and on top of that, morality in wrestling has ALWAYS been relative. Years later, I can't remember when, Mick Foley said he regretted what he said in that segment. Pretty sure it took place in Sept. 2000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted July 20, 2014 Report Share Posted July 20, 2014 I think it's worth remembering that Pat Patterson himself made jokes about his real life sexuality in promos as far back as the mid 60s in the San Francisco territory, at a time when promos weren't scripted. There's no evidence that he cared about the public knowing about his sexuality, as he never denied it when he was falsely accused of getting Murray Hodgson fired for turning down his sexual advances. This wasn't Gorilla Monsoon making fun of a married man's experience with the go-behind takedown. Personally when I think of hateful Jim Ross commentary I think more of his burials of Paul Heyman as a manager, which were much more vicious and nasty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artDDP Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 For what it's worth, I was a teenager back then and I thought JR's comments were out of line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funkdoc Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 JR's much more recent episode of transphobic behavior is worth noting in this context... i'm with bill on this one but i get why loss is putting the hammer down, so i'll stfu now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerpride Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 What if Patterson was okay with it and found it funny? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruiserBrody Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 Interesting that JR would make the comment about Great Muta being a great babyface giving that every conversation on Twitter he has had on KENTA is that if doesn't learn English we will never get over. One was in 1990 WCW... the other is in 2014 WWE.... BIG difference Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyonthewall2983 Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 Today is JR's last official day as a WWE employee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cm funk Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 I think it's worth remembering that Pat Patterson himself made jokes about his real life sexuality in promos as far back as the mid 60s in the San Francisco territory, at a time when promos weren't scripted. There's no evidence that he cared about the public knowing about his sexuality, as he never denied it when he was falsely accused of getting Murray Hodgson fired for turning down his sexual advances. This wasn't Gorilla Monsoon making fun of a married man's experience with the go-behind takedown. Personally when I think of hateful Jim Ross commentary I think more of his burials of Paul Heyman as a manager, which were much more vicious and nasty. Yeah, there's been stories for years about Patterson being very comfortable and open about his sexuality, to the point where he joked about it and ribbed guys in the lockeroom. By all accounts he had a great sense of humor about it. Calling the on screen jokes and ribbing about it "gay bashing" is such a huge leap and really reading into something that isn't there. I don't want to get into a big discussion of it, just pointing out that people who actually know Patterson would shoot this down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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