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KawadaSmile

WWE Hell in a Cell 2020 - Family Feud

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Here's a statistic that was brought to my attention. October 25, 2010: Randy Orton is WWE champion and Miz holds the Money in the Bank briefcase. October 25, 2020: Randy Orton is WWE champion and Miz holds the Money in the Bank briefcase. Time is a flat circle. I wonder what Angry Miz Girl thinks about this. Probably nothing since she in all likelihood stopped watching this shit years ago.

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We are like 7 years past the point that Orton should be holding a World Title. This would be like JCP tossing the World Title on Harley Race in 1989.

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1 hour ago, NintendoLogic said:

Here's a statistic that was brought to my attention. October 25, 2010: Randy Orton is WWE champion and Miz holds the Money in the Bank briefcase. October 25, 2020: Randy Orton is WWE champion and Miz holds the Money in the Bank briefcase. Time is a flat circle. I wonder what Angry Miz Girl thinks about this. Probably nothing since she in all likelihood stopped watching this shit years ago.

All the more bleak for the fact that it's building to a fucking Edge title match.

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57 minutes ago, NintendoLogic said:

October 25, 2010: Randy Orton is WWE champion and Miz holds the Money in the Bank briefcase. October 25, 2020: Randy Orton is WWE champion and Miz holds the Money in the Bank briefcase

That's my main problem with WWE. I was being asked to give a shit about these two ten years ago. If I didn't then, why would I now? They're exactly the same people.

Looking at some old results (2012-ish), we were being asked to give a shit about Dolph Ziggler back then. About Seamus. We were being asked to not give a shit about 3MB Drew, nor Daniel Bryan. We've been asked to give a fig about Rey Misterio and Jeff Hardy forever (except when Jeff was in TNA and we were told to not give a stuff about him, nor AJ, nor Joe, nor Roode). We were asked to give a tinker's cuss about John Morrison a decade ago. We were told not to care about Husky Bray a decade ago. What year was Lashley quasi-main-eventing Mania? 2007? We were asked to care about MVP back when Benoit was still around - Shelton, too. We were being asked to love Edge in the 1990s. I'm sure I'm missing plenty. Fucking Afa and Sika!

It was mentioned that WWE are in a holding-pattern due to Corona. We are being asked to be patient with them during these times, until live crowds are back and business gets back to normal. But I'm all out of patience, because I've been exercising it for years before Covid. It's the same old faces for a decade, with often completely mixed signals about how I'm supposed to feel about them. It's a good thing I'm blindly, stupidly, loyal in general. It's the only reason I'm a WWE...not "fan" anymore ..."follower". I still "follow" WWE, with no hope of a better tomorrow, because they were good to me from about 1984 to 1992 or so.

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Why not just have Otis try to cash in and Tucker turns on him then? Miz holding the briefcase does nothing for me.

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I guess acts being around more is possibly a sign of the times, and it ain't just in WWE.

There are many wrestlers right now who have been wrestling for two, sometimes three decades. Back in like the 80s or 90s that sure wasn't the case. Rick Rude was in the Fed from 1987-1990, and that to me is an insane stat.

I think the issue is that there's no place for wrestlers to go. It feels like there ain't that many possibilities now than before.

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15 minutes ago, KawadaSmile said:

I guess acts being around more is possibly a sign of the times, and it ain't just in WWE.

There are many wrestlers right now who have been wrestling for two, sometimes three decades. Back in like the 80s or 90s that sure wasn't the case. Rick Rude was in the Fed from 1987-1990, and that to me is an insane stat.

I think the issue is that there's no place for wrestlers to go. It feels like there ain't that many possibilities now than before.

The problem isn't so much the wrestlers staying in the business that long. The problem is the WWE being so deathly afraid of making new stars that the same people have been on top for nearly twenty years, leading to the reason why so many of the storylines just feel stale and repetitive, thus leading to the whole company feeling stagnant.

Rick Rude only being there for 3 years is a crazy stat, and while he certainly could have had more of a run, the company didn't really miss him when he left, because they made new stars.

But ever since Vince got all emotionally scarred cause Brock Lesnar decided that he wasn't the end all, be all of things to do, we've had to endure years of start stop pushes, cutting people off at the knees, and making sure that the brand was the only thing that mattered.

Add in the wrestler hoarding that they've done over the last couple of years, and they are now sitting on what could easily be the greatest mass of talent ever assembled under one roof, and yet they still insist on having the same guys on television that have been there for 20 years.

This company is doomed to mediocrity until Vince dies, or gets over his "what if they leave me" issues.

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While I think this Orton run has been actually really good, I totally understand the complaints here.

I think, however, there was this attempt on making Drew legit. They are at least trying to do something with Cedric by putting him with an actually great group. Big E is poised for a big singles run, it seems. Jey had breakout performances as a singles wrestler.

Like, to me what's infuriating is not having Orton or Cena run the place for an eternity, specially the latter. Instead, what is infuriating is how often they get cold feet with things that could've been great, or just have plain bad luck.

  • They pushed Balor to the goddamn moon - he hurts his shoulder.
  • They seem like they would have Roman go over Lesnar - they get cold feet (more than once!)
  • They push Jason Jordan as this actually really fresh and entertaining character - dude has a career ending injury.
  • They try to make Big Cass be his own thing - dude's got an attitude.
  • They trip over themselves, make Rusev over and have him in this weirdly great tag with English, but decide he wasn't getting over the way they wanted.
  • They go all in on Drew - a pandemic strikes.

Plus there's other examples such as Braun being cold and shown to be... not exactly stellar when they made him champ, or Bray Wyatt's reign sucking ass because his character is just an invincibility cheat code.

But yes, the decision to have goddamn Dolph Ziggler fuck around for over a decade being lame was theirs. So was the decision of not pulling the trigger on Luke Harper when he was absurdly over with fans. But at the end of the day, I think there's more to it.

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If you look at the top guys in New Japan and AEW, the only ones who were main event stars a decade ago are Hiroshi Tanahashi and Chris Jericho. And Jericho has reinvented himself so many times that he doesn't really count. Kazuchika Okada, Kenny Omega, Kota Ibushi, the Young Bucks, Jon Moxley, and Cody Rhodes have all worked for WWE, TNA, or both. It hasn't been lack of main event talent that's prevented promotions from creating new stars. The issue is incompetent booking. To take another example, compare WWE's treatment of Ricochet to AEW's treatment of Orange Cassidy. The former has been buried six feet under for so long that I literally can't remember the last time he was mentioned on this board while the latter has become a breakout star and a genuine ratings draw. Talent can't explain why their careers have had such disparate trajectories.

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Ricochet is a fantastic example. He is well put together, he's a decent enough looking dude, he is perfectly competent when it comes to the basics of wrestling, and on top of that he can do amazing shit that should be bringing people to their feet every single time he does them.  Sure, he isn't the world's greatest talker, but there are certainly ways around that.

I'm not claiming he is the next Hulk Hogan, Rock, or Steve Austin. But Holy Shit, all of that rolled up into a single package and they can't even come up with enough to get the guy on TV most weeks?

Whether it is incompetent booking, the snap judgments of old men like Vince and Dunn, or the reliance on a writing team to come up with something for wrestlers, and then taking it out on the wrestler when the writers don't have anything for them.....the WWE is broken.

Unfortunately for us, the fan who liked it how it was, they now have enough money to tread water and change nothing until long after we are dead, unless something happens to force them to change. I often thought that if Fox cancelled Smackdown, it might force their hand, but most likely it would just end up on USA.

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Even Fox doesn't seem dissatisfied with the product.

And truth be told, I think Cesaro might be a better example than Ricochet regarding talent being used below their capabilities. He looks better, is a better talker even with his accent and five languages in his head and has more charisma. Still never got close to a main event stint or anything past the IC title. Not sure he even had a singles World Title match, either.

On that note, I think the Ricochet/OC comparison is not really an appropriate one. The overall point is absolutely correct, but Cassidy not only has an unique look and gimmick, his charisma is unparalleled. While I don't think WWE would have pushed him strongly or anything, they did have a very good comedy act with a strong connection to the crowd in Santino, and even then, they had him win a battle royal - to a huge pop - and nearly beat Daniel Bryan for the title.

The question is: they have shown they are capable of using comedy wrestlers in more serious settings in the past. Could they do that now without pigeonholing them to the 24/7 Division?

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Ricochet absolutely should be used better. Unfortunately, he has no personality whatsoever. He's like a blank sheet of paper whenever a microphone is placed in front of him. Not that I'm defending WWE, but I have to imagine it's hard for Vince/Bruce/the writers to get excited about a guy with such an obvious lower-midcard ceiling. 

Where the company is failing is not using throwaway shows like Main Event to give guys like Ricochet more practice on the mic and multiple opportunities to try stuff out, fail, and try again on a show where nothing matters. Putting them out there for 8-minute "good rasslin" filler matches is completely useless, because that is never, ever going to be the avenue for a guy to elevate himself up the card.

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If there is one thing you can count is that Sasha Banks DELIVERS IN HELL IN A CELL! Holy shit that was kickass! The weird shit with the duct tape keeps below the AJ vs Bryan classic BUT Deathwish Sasha is the best Sasha! I counted 4 insane bumps and the two with the Kendo Sticks and the stairs what the fuckity fuck fuck. I LOVE HER! Great transitions! Great selling! Sasha snapping towards the end was great. The drop kick of the chair out of the ring was the perfect beginning. The La Mistica Bank Statement! THE METEORA UP THE TABLE!!! THE POWERBOMB BACK OF THE HEAD INTO THE CHAIR!!! The chair up on the Frogsplash! The Bayley 2 Belly steal! THE EPIC BANK STATEMENT FINISH! Are there enough stars in the sky for all this epic ness? I am not sure! Loved that match! 

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Before this thread got derailed with talk about Ricochet, there was some discussion of Drew McIntyre.

I liked Orton and Drew's SummerSlam match more than most and I even thought the Clash of the Champions match was a perfectly fine feud-ender.

Then, last night's match happened...Just yuck. There were so many logic holes and this type of stipulation/setting just isn't a great fit for a guy with McIntyre's skill set/style. The best parts of the match were when they were just wrestling. Everything else around the cage and on top of it was awkward looking. It was not a creative match, it was not a captivating match, it was not even a highly physical match. It was a chore to watch. The piped-in "This is Awesome" chat was comical because this match was not at all awesome. And to top it all off, Drew McIntyre lost, clean, in the middle of the ring, to a guy that who he has beaten twice before. I get that Orton is as credible as they get, sure, and can beat anybody on any given night, but this really felt like Drew LOSING more than Orton winning.

Its hard not to see this as the WWE opting to create the "next Sheamus" rather than go all in on the first Drew McIntyre. Sure, Drew will probably eventually get another title run and be treated like an upper midcard-level guy when the company needs him to be, but being a perennial top guy? I didn't see it in January, I didn't see it in April, but I must admit that the WWE was making me believe it could be possible these past few months...only to make me realize I was right the first time. McIntyre hit his ceiling last night and that ceiling is 40-year old Randy Orton (which, admittedly, isn't all that old...but because Orton started so young and has been a top guy so long, he seems like he should be 8-10 years older than guys like Kofi or Ziggler, when he's basically the same age as them - and only 5 years older than McIntyre and RAW's hottest new superstar Keith Lee). 

 

 

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17 hours ago, Dav'oh said:

That's my main problem with WWE. I was being asked to give a shit about these two ten years ago. If I didn't then, why would I now? They're exactly the same people.

It's crazy because it's like, the attentions spans of viewers have gotten shorter. Technology & therefore accessibility has gotten far greater. And there's a lot more competition due to all the viewer options now, not just in pro wrestling but competing with everything. 

Imagine if nothing really changed if you compare 1980 to 1990. Or 1990 to 2000. But from 2005 to 2020 is all still feels basically the same. Everything after Austin & Rock up until John Cena. And even now with Cena gone, it still feels the same. Randy Orton. The Miz. Even when Drew was the champion, I didn't feel like it caught & not just because of the pandemic. Maybe that's just me but he's boring as fucking paste. But at least he was different. 

They should go completely all-in on Tribal Chief Roman Reigns because it's all they got. If the future is guys like Adam Cole & Johnny Gargano, than the future is fucking BLEAK. 

 

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14 hours ago, C.S. said:

Ricochet absolutely should be used better. Unfortunately, he has no personality whatsoever. He's like a blank sheet of paper whenever a microphone is placed in front of him. Not that I'm defending WWE, but I have to imagine it's hard for Vince/Bruce/the writers to get excited about a guy with such an obvious lower-midcard ceiling. 

Where the company is failing is not using throwaway shows like Main Event to give guys like Ricochet more practice on the mic and multiple opportunities to try stuff out, fail, and try again on a show where nothing matters. Putting them out there for 8-minute "good rasslin" filler matches is completely useless, because that is never, ever going to be the avenue for a guy to elevate himself up the card.

Rey Mysterio is a good promo now but he couldn't talk for shit in the past. But he was still a star because he had a cool look and did cool moves. I don't think everyone has to be a Monday Night Raw soap opera guy to get over. Ricochet has died on his arse when he's been asked to do those promos but the whole point of wrestling is that you book to accentuate positives and hide weaknesses. So why can't you strap the guy up with a midcard or tag team title and let him have a hot 10 minute match with a variety of opponents to open the show every week? And if you ever want to feature him in a more developed feud, shoot some pretaped interviews. It's all very simple if they weren't trying to mash square pegs into round holes to fit their outdated formula.

 

Thinking of Orion and Miz, it's not just that it's them again after ten years. Like someone previously mentioned, Tanahashi and Chris Jericho are still around too. Jericho has reinvented himself a million times and wrestled in three different major promotions. Tanahashi went from being the ace in 2011, having his career defining feud with Okada 2012-16, having his last hurrah at the 2018 G1 and beating Kenny for the belt, and now the story is that the years have caught up to him and he can't be the top guy anymore. In that time he's also changed his theme twice and changed his attire and hair a million times. Jericho and Tana have had ten years of character development. But what's different about 2010 Randy Orton and 2020 Randy Orton? Or 2010 Miz and 2020 Miz? Same guys, same characters, same moves, same attires, same music. They've literally been spinning their wheels for a decade and have ended up in the exact same place doing the exact same thing.

 

Miz is a fucking dork. And they're already squashing him like a bug now that he has the case. Why not just have Otis call his shot and build up to a TV main event where Reigns beats his ass? That takes the briefcase off the table and at least gives you a unique match.

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18 minutes ago, FMKK said:

Rey Mysterio is a good promo now but he couldn't talk for shit in the past. But he was still a star because he had a cool look and did cool moves. I don't think everyone has to be a Monday Night Raw soap opera guy to get over. Ricochet has died on his arse when he's been asked to do those promos but the whole point of wrestling is that you book to accentuate positives and hide weaknesses. So why can't you strap the guy up with a midcard or tag team title and let him have a hot 10 minute match with a variety of opponents to open the show every week? And if you ever want to feature him in a more developed feud, shoot some pretaped interviews. It's all very simple if they weren't trying to mash square pegs into round holes to fit their outdated formula.

Exactly This.

I wasn't calling for them to build the company around Ricochet. I was simply saying that if you can't find a place for a guy that can do the shit he can do, then something is wrong with the company, not the wrestler. 

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I am not disagreeing with either of you about Ricochet, but you do lose me with the Rey comparison.

Rey was never a strong mic worker and still isn't, but even at his worst, he was miles better than Ricochet.

He also has a much cooler look than Ricochet. Colorful masks, colorful gear, colorful moves.

Ricochet has the colorful moves but nothing else. (I can't speak to his presentation in Lucha Underground, as I never had access to it at the time.)

I'm not sure what the solution is, but I do agree with you guys that it starts with Ricochet actually being used on the show. 

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Ricochet may not be much of a talker, but he had enough charisma to become a featured star in PWG, Lucha Underground, Dragon Gate, and everywhere else he worked prior to WWE. Cool moves alone won't cut it because guys who can do cool moves are a dime a dozen in those companies. And to go back to my earlier comparison, OC has shown that it's possible to get over huge without cutting a single promo. If WWE can't do anything with you unless you can deliver 20-minute soliloquies every week, that's a company failing.

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I would've kept the Ricochet/Aleister Black team together. That was the most I ever enjoyed Ricochet. Felt  old school early 90s to me, just two good guys forming a tag team, thought they worked well together.

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11 hours ago, NintendoLogic said:

Ricochet may not be much of a talker, but he had enough charisma to become a featured star in PWG, Lucha Underground, Dragon Gate, and everywhere else he worked prior to WWE. 

That means nothing. Gonna learn how to work and get that brass ring, bro.

Ricochet is such a case study of why no one should sign with that company (well, that and the fact NXT is a nest of COVID deniers idiots). Few years ago he looked like one of the hottest can't miss prospect in the business. Now he's another one of the "well, that sure did not turn out well" crowd who'll probably kill it the next day he shows up anywhere else, if he ever does.

Speaking of which, remember Scarlett Bordeaux, that hot, funny girl from the indies and IMPACT turned into an animatronic for her boyfriend's intro ? In AEW she would have been a star already. In NXT she's done exactly... jack shit. Apart from being turned into a prop for an intro.

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Ricochet made his bed when he tweeted out that he was happy with wrestling on Main Event.

I agree the team with Black was the best work of his WWE run, fun odd pairing that somehow worked. Both have floundered ever since.

 

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On 10/27/2020 at 5:26 PM, C.S. said:

I am not disagreeing with either of you about Ricochet, but you do lose me with the Rey comparison.

Rey was never a strong mic worker and still isn't, but even at his worst, he was miles better than Ricochet.

He also has a much cooler look than Ricochet. Colorful masks, colorful gear, colorful moves.

Ricochet has the colorful moves but nothing else. (I can't speak to his presentation in Lucha Underground, as I never had access to it at the time.)

I'm not sure what the solution is, but I do agree with you guys that it starts with Ricochet actually being used on the show. 

I don't think it is as true these days but on the indies but Ricochet had a serious rep of being arrogant or coming across that way. He started very young and had a lot of working on himself to do.  

Rey Mysterio has always been this angelic likeable dude. There's a Mexican term for having a halo of your head that I don't have the Spanish for. But Rey has more much of likeability factor and specialness.

I think the difference in both is simply you can bury one and not bury the other. 

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13 minutes ago, rovert said:

I think the difference in both is simply you can bury one and not bury the other.

I agree with this.

If Rey in his prime and Ricochet were on the same roster,  the clear choice would be Rey every time.

Heck, Rey way past his prime now is still the clear choice over Ricochet.

As you said, Rey is bulletproof in a way Ricochet isn't. Win or lose, Rey looks cool, does cool moves, has cool costumes, and will always be cool and an attraction to kids and general audiences with his bright outfits and flashy moves. 

As much as we lament WWE not knowing what to do with Ricochet, he's not entirely blameless IMO. He desperately needs to bring something else to the table that he isn't currently. The guy is a total bore and dud outside the ring, not only personality-wise but also in terms of gear, presentation, etc. That's not something you could ever say about Rey. 

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Bayley-Sasha was top 5 WWE match of the year imo. There was a point in the match when Sasha just railed on Bayley with ground strikes and it was so awesome. Also Sasha nearly fucking killed herself jumping STRAIGHT HEAD-FIRST into a steel chair set in the corner, just brutal brutal stuff

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