AEW TV 11/23 - 11/25

[strobogo]

Bro I do not give even the singlest of fucks about a wrestler drawing money. The only people that should care about that is the promoter and the talent. There is literally zero reason for a fan to ever give a shit about that unless they own stock in the company, I guess. 

 

[Flyin' Brian]

4 hours ago, sek69 said:

It's interesting seeing the reactions AEW gets nowadays. People complaining that Bryan is being "wasted" despite him saying on multiple occasions that this is what he wants to be doing in this stage of his career. The Elite knew they were going to get booed out of the building in Chicago and leaned into it and people are upset that it was "low rent".. 

I've noticed in this era of Prestige Multi-Star Matches, people get really fucking mad online if heels do heel shit to get heat. LIke somehow that became a distasteful thing to do. 

They aren’t getting heel reactions from most AEW fans it seems. They and apparently most of the AEW fans don’t consider them heels. They are the babyfaces in this world. If they are working toward something it’s great. If they are doing this and Punk gets released, what’s the point? You want people to get heel heat so people will pay to see them get beat. Who’s going to be the babyface that gets the benefit of that heat the Elite are building? Who are they going to put over, or who is going to get elevated besides the Elite? 

[Flyin' Brian]

3 minutes ago, strobogo said:

Bro I do not give even the singlest of fucks about a wrestler drawing money. The only people that should care about that is the promoter and the talent. There is literally zero reason for a fan to ever give a shit about that unless they own stock in the company, I guess. 

 

Do you care about AEW continuing to exist? Because the only way that happens is if they have wrestlers people want to see. If the company isn’t making money it’s not going to be around long. I guarantee the executives at Warner Discovery care about it. You think they are going to invest in a company with declining ratings?

[strobogo]

I'm saying as a fan, it is not your job to worry or care about "drawing money".  Of all the terms and phrases online fans picked up from newsletters and shoots, drawing money has to be the most poisonous to both discussion and enjoyment.

[Flyin' Brian]

1 hour ago, strobogo said:

I'm saying as a fan, it is not your job to worry or care about "drawing money".  Of all the terms and phrases online fans picked up from newsletters and shoots, drawing money has to be the most poisonous to both discussion and enjoyment.

You’re the 2nd person today to refer to my ‘job’ as a fan. I’m not getting paid. Fuck that bullshit. This is a tv show, no different than any other. If the writing or the acting is bad or they kill off your favorite character because of shit going on behind the scenes it’s no damn different. People stop watching and it gets canceled. I’m done. If this isn’t bringing me joy why should I keep watching? So I can watch people gloat because they won? I’m too old to hate watch stuff. If money and ratings don’t matter then I guess it doesn’t matter if people stop watching or going to shows or buying ppv’s and merchandise. I guess it’s the same difference “practicing their art” in front of 500 people as it is 5000 or 50,000 or 100,000 or a million. If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it does it make a sound? If they don’t care if people watch then why should I?

[Timbo Slice]

“Workrate” dwarfs that in the newsletter jargon that’s been harmful to the business. Once the cult of star ratings became a thing, wrestlers flocked to snow like 80’s ski instructors. Fucking Ouroboros eating it’s own tail soon followed. 
 

The issue is the divergence of what actually “makes money” in pro wrestling nowadays. Focused storytelling with a payoff was always the way, but now it’s a commodity and can really only be done with maybe one or two stories simultaneously per a specific brand on a level that actually “makes money” or at least attempts to. 

Hardcores THINK it’s the work that’s the main draw to AEW; the fans that tuned in wanted a true alternative to WWE on more than just a work perspective and that’s been scattershot. There was a genuine feeling to the product and that’s eroded due to several factors the last few months (way more than the Punk/Elite stuff). And now the only mainstream compelling thing about them will probably not bring the company (and the wrestlers involved) prosperity because folks are too stingy to play ball and need it to go 50/50 because the “that don’t work for me, brother” meme gets pushed too far.

I chuckled at the notion of the Bo7 series as it’s a “real sports” presentation because Kenny thinks he’s fucking Jordan; he’s Kobe at best. 

 

[Johnny Sorrow]

This idea that Danielson "owes" anybody anything is as fucking stupid as biting an arm to pop Brandon Cutler.

[Big Pete]

Even if the Elite spots weren't hinting at a Punk return, it would have been odd for them not to address the elephant in the room. A damned if you do, damned if you don't situation so you may as well do something that's going to get the biggest reaction and that was certainly it.

Otherwise, I agree that the Best of 7 is over-kill and un-did a lot of the good work from Full Gear. It was a case of AEW of having their cake and eating as well as far as giving the Elite a big triumphant return, but then using it to re-invigorate Death Triangle and pay-off the cheesy time-keeper hammer angle. Instead of letting that marinate and building up the anticipation of a rematch, they blew their load and wised the fans up that the Elite are going to be put over in a bigger way. I think whatever sympathy they generated out of the loss will be lost and they'll continue to alienate fans.

[strobogo]

6 hours ago, Flyin' Brian said:

You’re the 2nd person today to refer to my ‘job’ as a fan. I’m not getting paid. Fuck that bullshit. This is a tv show, no different than any other. If the writing or the acting is bad or they kill off your favorite character because of shit going on behind the scenes it’s no damn different. People stop watching and it gets canceled. I’m done. If this isn’t bringing me joy why should I keep watching? So I can watch people gloat because they won? I’m too old to hate watch stuff. If money and ratings don’t matter then I guess it doesn’t matter if people stop watching or going to shows or buying ppv’s and merchandise. I guess it’s the same difference “practicing their art” in front of 500 people as it is 5000 or 50,000 or 100,000 or a million. If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it does it make a sound? If they don’t care if people watch then why should I?

We are actually in agreement here. You're watching to be entertained. Not to worry about ratings or drawing money, in the same way that normal people don't give a shit about how much money a NFL franchise is making in ticket sales, or what the ad buy rate is for The Masked Singer.

[strobogo]

6 hours ago, Flyin' Brian said:

You’re the 2nd person today to refer to my ‘job’ as a fan. I’m not getting paid. Fuck that bullshit. This is a tv show, no different than any other. If the writing or the acting is bad or they kill off your favorite character because of shit going on behind the scenes it’s no damn different. People stop watching and it gets canceled. I’m done. If this isn’t bringing me joy why should I keep watching? So I can watch people gloat because they won? I’m too old to hate watch stuff. If money and ratings don’t matter then I guess it doesn’t matter if people stop watching or going to shows or buying ppv’s and merchandise. I guess it’s the same difference “practicing their art” in front of 500 people as it is 5000 or 50,000 or 100,000 or a million. If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it does it make a sound? If they don’t care if people watch then why should I?

We are actually in agreement here. You're watching to be entertained. Not to worry about ratings or drawing money, in the same way that normal people don't give a shit about how much money a NFL franchise is making in ticket sales, or what the ad buy rate is for The Masked Singer.

[Dav'oh]

I keep coming back to: "People used to watch wrestling to see it being done. Now they watch to see how it's done."

I made a conscious decision to return to the former. Turns out that for me, being a "mark" is a lot more fun than being "smart".

[El-P]

8 hours ago, strobogo said:

I'm saying as a fan, it is not your job to worry or care about "drawing money".  Of all the terms and phrases online fans picked up from newsletters and shoots, drawing money has to be the most poisonous to both discussion and enjoyment.

This.

The thing is, "how to make money" has been used as a cop out whenever something you don't like stylistically is out there being successful. The Elite have triggered people (and still do) for years because they have been exceedingly successful doing stuff that "they should not do". And that success is part of why they are so hated by a part of the pro-wrestling audience. Their success has been met with moving the goal posts and denial galore strictly because of this, a stylistic disagreement. AEW was never supposed to be competitive with WWE. Now that they are not as hot as they were (and despite the fact their most successful year in term of growth, leading to the signing of Cole/Punk/Danielson, happened when the Elite was on top of the cards) it's easier to blame it on a style you don't like, even though it has no actual basis (mergers and financial strategy of big ass media companies are what can kill AEW, not the fact someone is doing "too much spots")

As far as "workrate" being a poisonous word, actually, pro-wrestling criticism totally losts its way when "workrate" became a dirty word and "psychology" got mixed up with "status on the pro-wrestling social field". Which leads to stuff like "Oh, the Young Bucks and Kenny Omega (or Will Ospreay, to name another one) don't understand psychology", which is the most hilariously wrong take anyone can make about them (and really, I get not getting it at first, I went through the phase of thinking they were the worst thing I ever saw, all three of them, but it's 2022 now, they have been around long enough for people to actually sit back and think a little bit more about it). Or the fact some people wanna talk about pro-wrestling *needing* CM Punk on a stylistic basis. Listen, pro-wrestling needs CM Punk like I need a blowjob, it's a nice feeling (can even be great) and it's been a while, but I can very much climax without it, thank you very much.

One interesting thing is that stuff like Young Bucks vs Lucha Brothers is by far the most appealing stuff you can show to absolute non fans (I know, I've experienced it). Anyone can watch this and have fun. Apart from grumpy-ass pro-wrestling fans yelling at clouds about "how it's supposed to be done".

(there's a reason why lucha libre, despite being supposedly "hard to get" (a fiction) is also the most acceptable and cool form of pro-wrestling in mainstream pop culture, and why Arena Mexico is basically a tourist attraction)

[Jmare007]

14 hours ago, sek69 said:

It's interesting seeing the reactions AEW gets nowadays. People complaining that Bryan is being "wasted" despite him saying on multiple occasions that this is what he wants to be doing in this stage of his career.

Same happened with his last stint in WWE where he didn't even want to main event Wrestlemania while fans wanted him to win the belt  that night .

Bryan is clearly more interested in himself and what he perceives the business needs from him than pushing for what a very vocal fanbase wants. And that's fine, but I don't think that's ever going to stop people from wanting to see him get the biggest spotlight possible. Even in 2 years when he's wrestling sporadically, there's still gonna be people calling for him to get a title run somewhere.

[Flyin' Brian]

What the Elite are doing is the same thing that the NWO did when they mocked the Four Horsemen in a that skit, or when WWE were doing the authority stuff. They never got any real comeuppance and in their minds they probably thought they were right and the faces. It helped kill WCW. It caused a lot of people to lose interest in WWE. And AEW is making the same mistakes. No one is going to kick the Elite’s asses for their supposed heel antics, so it’s a facetious argument. I’m tired of the condescending ‘fan’ bullshit. I’m tired of being spoonfed crap and being told it tastes good. If my ‘job’ is to just sit there and watch it and not have an opinion or care about anything else then I quit. 

[Dav'oh]

But wrestling is crap. 95% of pro-wrestling is mindless bullshit*. But that other 5%...is why we're here. It actually compares well to the "real world", which is running at 99% mindless bullshit.

*Figure supplied by a worker or "personality". I forget who I'm quoting.

[El-P]

19 minutes ago, Dav'oh said:

*Figure supplied by a worker or "personality". I forget who I'm quoting.

Dutch Mantell ? Not sure but it could be.

[DMJ]

1 hour ago, Flyin' Brian said:

No one is going to kick the Elite’s asses for their supposed heel antics, so it’s a facetious argument. 

I disagree. 

In 97', after the Montreal Screwjob, after Bret left, Shawn Michaels and DX continued to mock Bret Hart. If I'm not mistaken, they did a segment where they beat down Jim Neidhart. Owen Hart came back in December 97' and they essentially beat him down and stuck him in a midcard feud with Triple H (that I think he lost) when most people would've reasonably said that he would've been a natural opponent for Shawn in January/February. 

But to say that Shawn didn't get his ass kicked is forgetting that, ultimately, it was "Stone Cold" Steve Austin who was given that spot and when he beat HBK for the title and started hitting stunners on Vince, it was Austin who was working as not just the audience surrogate but - in a very real sense - a Bret Hart surrogate.

Similarly, in WCW, there was a fairly widespread feeling that they had botched Sting's victory at Starrcade 97'. That's not a revisionist thought. I was 13 years old and I remember watching that show, full-on pizza party sleepover with my fellow wrestling nerds, and all of us feeling a bit deflated by it. We were "smart" in the way that 13 year olds who frequented RSPW were "smart." So when Goldberg came onto the scene and started systematically taking out the nWo members and then whupping Hogan's ass clean on TV? That felt like the victory that Sting didn't get. 

I bring these up because, if you're a fan holding onto hope that CM Punk is going to be the guy to take down the Elite, you are likely to be out of luck. But CM Punk not being in that spot could mean that another star - like Austin was, like Goldberg was - becomes that fan surrogate. The fun thing is that AEW has several guys that might fit that bill. MJF would have a field day if he was allowed to cut loose on Omega and the Bucks. You could do a Wardlow-as-Batista vs. Omega-as-Triple H type thing. I'm not sure how you'd get there, but I'm a big Ricky Starks fan and wouldn't mind seeing him go up against the Elite (maybe even backed up by FTR). I think Hangman Page's potential to be that guy has passed, but I could see Jungle Boy involved in some sort of longterm Elite storyline. I'm not sure it will ever happen now, but Adam Cole and Kyle O'Reilly seemed to be "penciled in" for a feud with the Elite at one point.

Saying that the Elite will never get their comeuppance seems a bit premature, just like saying that the Elite's mocking of CM Punk is "building to nothing." If their actions get people talking, get people wanting them to get beaten up, get people wondering what they'll do to antagonize the audience next, it doesn't need to be CM Punk who puts them in their place. And they don't need to be in their place next week or next month either. If anything, as someone else pointed out, drawing out Kenny Omega's next major defeat is a recipe that worked in the past and there's no reason to think it can't work again.

[Big Pete]

Didn't the Elite already get their comeuppance when they lost to Death Triangle? I don't think this was intended to lead to anything. If Punk does decide to play ball, great, but I assume the Elite felt they had to address the elephant in the room so they mocked the incident.

AEW seems to play into the whole Bret 97 psychology where you can be a babyface in NY and a heel everywhere else. In this case, the Elite accepted being heels in Chicago and even then the crowd reception was mixed.

At the end of the day, I don't think they're playing for a babyface/heel contrast. The Elite are fluid at the moment, whatever way the crowd accepts them is the way they're going to go. The only consistensy is this cheesy story with the timekeeper's hammer.

[NintendoLogic]

5 hours ago, strobogo said:

We are actually in agreement here. You're watching to be entertained. Not to worry about ratings or drawing money, in the same way that normal people don't give a shit about how much money a NFL franchise is making in ticket sales, or what the ad buy rate is for The Masked Singer.

The thing is, most outside-the-ring aspects of pro wrestling are inherently more entertaining when they're done with the explicit goal of generating business. I'm much more entertained by a promo that's intended to get a match or angle over than one that's self-indulgent jerking off. If you look at Britt Baker, she's a good talker but a bad promo because she mainly focuses on popping the crowd with catchphrases and inside references and just in general trying to get herself over at the expense of her opponent. I'd place Miz in that category as well, albeit for a different reason. I can't think of anything he actually does wrong on the mic from a technical standpoint, but he has so little credibility as a wrestler that it's impossible to get excited about the prospect of seeing him in the ring no matter how well he hypes it up.

[Flyin' Brian]

AEW: Don’t pay any attention to the ratings. You’re just a fan, they don’t matter to you. 
 

Also AEW: Hey look, we beat NXT in the ratings. Fans, this is important. 
 

AEW: Stuff that happens backstage doesn’t matter. Just sit back and enjoy the show and ignore all that. Let it go. 
 

Also AEW: Here’s some shooty shooty bullshit. Nod nod, wink wink. Aren’t we clever? 
 

Get the fuck out of here. 

[Lukeless]

Dude I hate to say this but you don't have to keep watching.  AEW is clearly causing you stress.

[KawadaSmile]

2 hours ago, NintendoLogic said:

The thing is, most outside-the-ring aspects of pro wrestling are inherently more entertaining when they're done with the explicit goal of generating business. I'm much more entertained by a promo that's intended to get a match or angle over than one that's self-indulgent jerking off. If you look at Britt Baker, she's a good talker but a bad promo because she mainly focuses on popping the crowd with catchphrases and inside references and just in general trying to get herself over at the expense of her opponent. I'd place Miz in that category as well, albeit for a different reason. I can't think of anything he actually does wrong on the mic from a technical standpoint, but he has so little credibility as a wrestler that it's impossible to get excited about the prospect of seeing him in the ring no matter how well he hypes it up.

I get why one would be frustrated about the Miz, but at the same time he shows ass more than just about any other wrestler who has main evented anything. People want to see him get his ass whooped and the fact that he's not athletically good kinda makes it a given he'll take a beating. 

 

Britt talks her shit and more often than not comes out on top, either by winning or just no-selling her loss afterward. In her case, her fans are delighted and will get their fix, but that's it. She needs to start throwing some softballs for the people she's feuding with.

[sek69]

There's also a fundamental change in how wrestling is presented that for some reason goes unmentioned. When I was growing up, Ric Flair would talk shit and then get embarrassed by the babyface challenger on TV. More often than not, he would win the match but since it was predominantly a house show business, most of us only saw the babyface show up the heel on TV. Unless you paid for a ticket or bought the show when the VHS dropped (which most people didn't since them bastards were expensive in the 80s) you'd almost never see Flair take an L. Even on TV, most of the time he was in a match that wasn't a squash we'd get the TONY WE'RE OUTTA TIME before the finish.

Nowadays we see the heel talk his shit, and even if the babyface gets one over in the build, everyone sees him eat a loss at the end. Since the Monday Night Wars demanded PPV quality matches every week, it's been infinitely harder to create a babyface since you're going to see them losing on TV a ton. The only person in history who could lose frequently and not really lose popularity was the Rock, since it takes otherworldly levels of charisma to not get hurt by that. 

[Perfectly Straightedge]

5 hours ago, Lukeless said:

Dude I hate to say this but you don't have to keep watching.  AEW is clearly causing you stress.

We need a like button on this website. lol 

[Matt D]

Toni Storm was a babyface ace. She showed up every week, fought hard, took on all challengers, did everything right, had an aura of being cool, etc.

Hayter won the title with help after she said she wanted to do it alone. The fans were absolutely elated for it. Not a hint of doubt. Not a hint of hesitation. She basically went from being a tweener who had trouble with Britt to just a 97 style cool heel who gets cheered over the babyface who does everything right and the fans rewarded her for it.

They got the candy they wanted and didn't care how they got it. Obviously they may do some things with Britt moving forward and Storm called her out for it on Rampage today but the fans already rewarded her by popping for her win and not caring how Storm lost.