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Between this, people losing their minds over him saying the Miz was a waste of a Bryan feud, and twitter getting in a hissy every time he drops five stars I kind of don't get it anymore. Sure, he could have waited a day or worded this better or whatever, but I honestly don't think it would matter. People love getting riled up for Meltzer and most (not all, most) of the people who get riled up are the ones who say he is full of shit, out of touch, and/or just doesn't have the scoops anymore.

 

I am not trying to say Dave doesn't have clout or influence (quite the opposite), but the logic of how so many people engage that dude and his work is mind blowing. People have made such a villain out of him (and in some ways he has perpetuated that process) that I think a huge section of wrestling fans (at least wrestling twitter) really revels in calling him out and juxtaposing themselves/their takes and knowledge against his in a way that they think makes them look smart or superior.

 

I didn't love the tweet and I think it was perfectly reasonable to not be thrilled about it, but it seems like it took a lot of people's attention away from Bruno and put it on Meltzer or their own self righteous responses to him and that is at least as much their fault as it is Metlzers I think.

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You have to give Dave a pass given his personal history with Bruno. He was being respectful but still trying to be "Twitter Dave". If it was someone who knows but doesn't really know him then fine argue away.

 

Now his awful takes bordering on fake trolling in the last 2 or 3 years about the Miz that he once again brought when the idea of Miz vs Bryan happened on RAW, fuck that shit

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Holy shit at this thread going 4 pages over 1 tweet that was used to complain about people complaining :lol:

 

 

By the way, how inaccurate is the sellout number? Would be hilarious if the difference isn't that big.

I think the actual number is about 45 or so, around the same as Backlund actually. So it's a pretty big exaggeration. I don't think Bruno even appeared on 187 MSG shows total. Wrestling at MSG was hot from 63-65, but was relatively cold for the rest of the decade with no sellouts from early 65 until June of 1970. Bruno's second reign was full of sellouts, but so were Morales', Graham's and Backlund's reigns.

 

But whatever, Bruno was fucking God

 

 

Dave, in reply to Chris Cruise, said the actual number was around 61. (https://twitter.com/davemeltzerWON/status/986664704461324288)

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I guess these complainers follow Dave in order to achieve a feeling of self-satisfaction each time something like this happens.

 

John Lister made the comparison of if Pele died and reports were exaggerating how many World Cup Champion teams he played for.

 

Not only was Dave a personal friend of Bruno, but he's generally regarded as a top source of wrestling info (including by the "mainstream media").

 

He sent out a bunch of tribute tweets, retweeted and favorited others, and threw in a correction to a misstated stat that was popping up.

 

It was in no way inappropriate, untimely, or in poor taste. Look at the context and consider there's literally a 0% chance Dave was sitting behind his computer, pushing his glasses up and chortling as he got excited to correct the record.

 

 

We live in a time where many see facts as less important than feelings. Bruno MSG sellouts or Andre's height being clarified should not cause so much frustration and name calling.

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I guess these complainers follow Dave in order to achieve a feeling of self-satisfaction each time something like this happens.

 

John Lister made the comparison of if Pele died and reports were exaggerating how many World Cup Champion teams he played for.

 

Not only was Dave a personal friend of Bruno, but he's generally regarded as a top source of wrestling info (including by the "mainstream media").

 

He sent out a bunch of tribute tweets, retweeted and favorited others, and threw in a correction to a misstated stat that was popping up.

 

It was in no way inappropriate, untimely, or in poor taste. Look at the context and consider there's literally a 0% chance Dave was sitting behind his computer, pushing his glasses up and chortling as he got excited to correct the record.

 

 

We live in a time where many see facts as less important than feelings. Bruno MSG sellouts or Andre's height being clarified should not cause so much frustration and name calling.

That is really the jist of a lot of this and of course it extends well beyond ol' Dave.

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If Dave knew Bruno well and respected him, I find it perfectly understandable if he finds it annoying that every obituary he sees about a friend of his contains false information.

I'd find it odd that a friend would be offended about an inaccurate number partially designed to make me look better that he'd correct that myth on the day I died, but that's just me. I don't think it is worth getting all worked up over though either way.

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If Dave knew Bruno well and respected him, I find it perfectly understandable if he finds it annoying that every obituary he sees about a friend of his contains false information.

I'd find it odd that a friend would be offended about an inaccurate number partially designed to make me look better that he'd correct that myth on the day I died, but that's just me. I don't think it is worth getting all worked up over though either way.

 

 

It really isn't, and right now people should read the opening to his obit in this weeks issue and his personal recollections and how this is was the one year he didn't call him for his birthday because of everything else going on.

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Of course it's not odd for Dave. I don't even get worked up over what he says because I know he is who he is and I take him for what that is worth and nothing more. I was speaking in more general terms, like that is what it basically amounts to. Now the problem of course is he treats his position as a historian very seriously so I think it goes beyond just "Well Bruno would have wanted it this way". He is doing it to be Dave Meltzer, the authority of wrestling not Dave Meltzer the dear friend who is perturbed by fake numbers flying around. That is who he chose to be, and I can understand why that is a bad look for some.

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If Dave knew Bruno well and respected him, I find it perfectly understandable if he finds it annoying that every obituary he sees about a friend of his contains false information.

Yeah, if that false information was "Bruno was a Nazi youth who wanted his Mom shot!"

Twitter Dave is a character he's embraced, he's said as much, and this one thing was just a weird ill timed thing to immediately tweet upon Bruno, his friend, passing away. If you're gonna embrace Twitter to engage morons because you've been told it's what you do, it's gonna bite you in the ass occasionally.

Number one, no one cares. It doesn't matter if 187 or 188 is real. It's a mythology and it doesn't effect anyone or anything to let it be. And anyone going crazy on Twitter calling Dave terrible things over this ? They're assholes who are over reacting on purpose because Twitter is a sewer.

But people just pointing out that it was an ill timed tweet has gotten a response of crazy hostility and escalation of weird anger from some people.

I know Dave was full of emotion and then finished the obit he's already had written. ( Not a criticism, that's how it's done) and just tweeted an ill timed and honestly strange tweet.

Shit, if we all want to redirect our feelings of anger and frustration, there's no better than the New York Times obit of Bruno which is condescending and awful.

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One thing is for certain, Dave's bio of Bruno in today's WON is fantastic

 

Agreed. It's excellent. His personal tribute at the beginning is also great. You can tell he genuinely regrets not having found the time to call him in the last couple of years, and that he is really upset cuz Bruno was a good friend.

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Weighing in on the Meltzer MSG/Bruno tweet because I have a bit of a nuanced opinion on it.

 

I wasn't offended by it, and really don't see much reason why anyone would be. That said it felt like a transparently dumb way to communicate that point precisely because it was on a social media forum that only allows for 280 characters per message. Naturally people who just saw that tweet pop in their feed and not the other stuff Dave was saying and/or had it out for Dave pounced on it, and because there was no additional context surrounding his point it very much came off to a lot of people (myself included) as "Hey Dave here with a fact you might not know!" rather than "as a friend of Bruno's and the most well known wrestling historian, here is something to note about Bruno..."

 

From my perspective the tweet probably shouldn't have been made at all or should have been part of a bigger tweet string that would have presented context that was important. Yes the number is a huge exaggeration and a myth, but it's a myth grown out of generally accepted truths, namely that Bruno was the rock upon which the WWWF was built, and he was very likely the biggest wrestling star in the history of New York City. On a day when people are celebrating the huge accomplishments and legend of Bruno, I think that kind of context is needed both to honor the man, to accurately report, and to avoid people thinking you are just trying to be the smartest guy in the room.

 

At this point discussing Meltzer is really a waste because people have largely made up their minds on him and tend to view him through whatever longview perspective they have, rather than a micro analysis of existing issues. We all get sucked into even when we complain about it and it just is what it is. I quit following him a long time ago though because I find his Twitter act so tiresome and you can bet that act also contributed to the way many people felt about that tweet.

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Weighing in on the Meltzer MSG/Bruno tweet because I have a bit of a nuanced opinion on it.

 

I wasn't offended by it, and really don't see much reason why anyone would be. That said it felt like a transparently dumb way to communicate that point precisely because it was on a social media forum that only allows for 280 characters per message. Naturally people who just saw that tweet pop in their feed and not the other stuff Dave was saying and/or had it out for Dave pounced on it, and because there was no additional context surrounding his point it very much came off to a lot of people (myself included) as "Hey Dave here with a fact you might not know!" rather than "as a friend of Bruno's and the most well known wrestling historian, here is something to note about Bruno..."

 

From my perspective the tweet probably shouldn't have been made at all or should have been part of a bigger tweet string that would have presented context that was important. Yes the number is a huge exaggeration and a myth, but it's a myth grown out of generally accepted truths, namely that Bruno was the rock upon which the WWWF was built, and he was very likely the biggest wrestling star in the history of New York City. On a day when people are celebrating the huge accomplishments and legend of Bruno, I think that kind of context is needed both to honor the man, to accurately report, and to avoid people thinking you are just trying to be the smartest guy in the room.

 

At this point discussing Meltzer is really a waste because people have largely made up their minds on him and tend to view him through whatever longview perspective they have, rather than a micro analysis of existing issues. We all get sucked into even when we complain about it and it just is what it is. I quit following him a long time ago though because I find his Twitter act so tiresome and you can bet that act also contributed to the way many people felt about that tweet.

 

This is probably the best take I've seen on this.

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If Dave knew Bruno well and respected him, I find it perfectly understandable if he finds it annoying that every obituary he sees about a friend of his contains false information.

Yeah, if that false information was "Bruno was a Nazi youth who wanted his Mom shot!"

Twitter Dave is a character he's embraced, he's said as much, and this one thing was just a weird ill timed thing to immediately tweet upon Bruno, his friend, passing away. If you're gonna embrace Twitter to engage morons because you've been told it's what you do, it's gonna bite you in the ass occasionally.

Number one, no one cares. It doesn't matter if 187 or 188 is real. It's a mythology and it doesn't effect anyone or anything to let it be. And anyone going crazy on Twitter calling Dave terrible things over this ? They're assholes who are over reacting on purpose because Twitter is a sewer.

But people just pointing out that it was an ill timed tweet has gotten a response of crazy hostility and escalation of weird anger from some people.

I know Dave was full of emotion and then finished the obit he's already had written. ( Not a criticism, that's how it's done) and just tweeted an ill timed and honestly strange tweet.

Shit, if we all want to redirect our feelings of anger and frustration, there's no better than the New York Times obit of Bruno which is condescending and awful.

 

 

Man, that NYT obit really was terrible. The guy spent as much space re-litigating the fakeness of wrestling as he did describing Bruno's life. And he didn't seem to have interviewed anyone. It always amazes me how often the "fake" thing still gets brought up in the wider world.

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I have zero issues with the tweet. His role in pro wrestling is to tell the truth. He was doing his job. Honestly, our media and discourse would be much better if the media wasn't always so dedicated to perpetuating and maintaining myths and narratives.

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Yup - if some news article came out the day after say, Prince died and said he sold 200 million records and a music journalist Tweeted, "the real number is 150 million," I really don't think a single Prince fan would be upset. (Note - using random numbers when it comes to Prince's record sales.)

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I didn't personally have an issue with Dave's correction. I can see being annoyed at it because Dave didn't contextualize his comments in a broader way as opposed to simply engaging with the narrower topic. But 1) twitter isn't exactly the best medium for that, even somebody can make a thread (and Dave's writing isn't exactly naturally concise), 2) Dave's twitter persona with it's goal of driving traffic/follows and potentially subs for the observer doesn't mesh with that, and 3) as a journalist or historian, accuracy about something should always trump romanticizing something or using artistic license that speaks to some supposed larger truth, despite you knowing it's false.

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If Dave knew Bruno well and respected him, I find it perfectly understandable if he finds it annoying that every obituary he sees about a friend of his contains false information.

Yeah, if that false information was "Bruno was a Nazi youth who wanted his Mom shot!"

Twitter Dave is a character he's embraced, he's said as much, and this one thing was just a weird ill timed thing to immediately tweet upon Bruno, his friend, passing away. If you're gonna embrace Twitter to engage morons because you've been told it's what you do, it's gonna bite you in the ass occasionally.

Number one, no one cares. It doesn't matter if 187 or 188 is real. It's a mythology and it doesn't effect anyone or anything to let it be. And anyone going crazy on Twitter calling Dave terrible things over this ? They're assholes who are over reacting on purpose because Twitter is a sewer.

But people just pointing out that it was an ill timed tweet has gotten a response of crazy hostility and escalation of weird anger from some people.

I know Dave was full of emotion and then finished the obit he's already had written. ( Not a criticism, that's how it's done) and just tweeted an ill timed and honestly strange tweet.

Shit, if we all want to redirect our feelings of anger and frustration, there's no better than the New York Times obit of Bruno which is condescending and awful.

 

 

I don't think it's that strange. Bruno's sell-out record at MSG is an important fact as it relates directly to his drawing power and long-lasting connection to a particular area and fanbase. That's a huge part of his legacy, and often one of the first things people bring up when evaluating his stature. I'm not sure how ill-timed it was either, Dave might've been abrupt with covering it, but he did just churn out a huge piece contextualizing Bruno's life, legacy, and Dave's relationship with him. Unless somebody only looked at that one tweet, they would be aware that Dave had published that big piece and how they could access it.

 

 

 

 

 

Man, that NYT obit really was terrible. The guy spent as much space re-litigating the fakeness of wrestling as he did describing Bruno's life. And he didn't seem to have interviewed anyone. It always amazes me how often the "fake" thing still gets brought up in the wider world.

 

 

Not surprising, though. It's been around with wrestling coverage for forever. For whatever reason, a lot of news people, because they don't like wrestling and think it's silly or sleazy, they then feel the need to incorporate that point of view into their writing. And their editors don't give them enough shit so that they don't cover the subject in a way where any reader can tell the writer thinks the topic is beneath them.

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Also there's the stupid mainstream logic that because the outcome of wrestling matches is "fake" then there's no need to treat any aspect of the wrestling industry as real.

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I'd like to mention that the best MSG sellout statistic lying was from Frank Bonnema who repeatedly said that Stan Stasiak broke records and sold it out for a decade as a main eventer or something.

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My favourite was Kevin Nash telling Alex Shelley about how he drew 29,000 to MSG and Shelley asking "Does the Garden even hold 29,000?" and Nash responding "... it did that night."

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When WWE had the Miz read off the inflated number of sellouts at the beginning of RAW, it almost felt like they were directly trolling Dave. I'm sure they weren't, but I was amused.

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