Dave Meltzer stuff

[mookeighana]

Meltzer was very negative on the James Dudley WWF Hall of Fame induction in 1994, taking multiple shots at it including this one after talking about Ladd going into the Louisiana Sports Hall of Fame and Hodge going into the [/size]Oklahoma Sports Hall of Fame.

 

"Wonder if either of those Hall of Fames has inducted any chauffeurs lately?"[/size]

 

I know the general sentiment about Dudley now is a lot more positive. Did Dave ever change his tune on this?

I don't think so. I've heard him bury the WWE Hall of Fame as a joke (or at least as something that really has no credible line) on numerous audio shows referencing Dudley as a prime reason why one shouldn't take it any more serious than the "Hall of Guys that WWE choses that year for whatever reason makes sense to them at that moment." But at the same time, he knows they're not going to "dump" out people, and still thought bringing in guys like Sammartino was a big deal and gives some credibility that they're building their own version of history though it's almost entirely built on the idea of "who fans of today still know?".

[Matt D]

The follow up then is whether or not the claims of Dudley's importance that have come up since are valid. Even Vince, in 1994, didn't try to sell him as something more than a "manager extraordinaire."

[shakla]

If you can view the WWE HOF's 1st phase as a "company HOF", I think all of the 90s inductees are valid. No one was expecting it to become anything more than that back then. But when it reopened in 2004 and became more of a Wrestling HOF, Dudley and the other usual suspects looked more out of place. The first few classes were primarily guys with strong WWF ties (with a possible exception of Harley Race). Then they inducted some who basically had WWF connections by osmosis (Gagne, Sheik, Bockwinkel). If they kept inducting people the way they did in the 90s, probably would have Rene Goulet, Harvey Whippleman, Brooklyn Brawler and Dick Kroll in by now.

 

Was James Dudley really that prolific of an in-ring manager, or is that typical WWE revisionist (or poorly researched) history?

[Strummer]

IIRC Dudley was used in a backstage vignette with Stephanie McMahon in very early 2002

[Bix]

I *think* it turned out he did manage who they said he did, but only at the one arena in DC.

 

The biggest problem was that everyone else inducted back then was a legit big star even if not a WON HOF/PWHOF level star who I knew from magazines or Coliseum Home Video rentals. When they announced "Manager extraordinaire James Dudley," it was obvious to me even as a kid that something was off. I'd have to check the Torch archives but I'm pretty sure even Wade Keller didn't know who he was and I can't blame him.

[Matt D]

If you can view the WWE HOF's 1st phase as a "company HOF", I think all of the 90s inductees are valid. No one was expecting it to become anything more than that back then. But when it reopened in 2004 and became more of a Wrestling HOF, Dudley and the other usual suspects looked more out of place. The first few classes were primarily guys with strong WWF ties (with a possible exception of Harley Race). Then they inducted some who basically had WWF connections by osmosis (Gagne, Sheik, Bockwinkel). If they kept inducting people the way they did in the 90s, probably would have Rene Goulet, Harvey Whippleman, Brooklyn Brawler and Dick Kroll in by now.

 

Was James Dudley really that prolific of an in-ring manager, or is that typical WWE revisionist (or poorly researched) history?

 

I would think the more powerful claim would be "Dudley was the first African-American to run a major United States arena." which is what wiki claims. Vince inducted him himself. Were there any fan recordings of the HOF? I know they showed highlights on TV. I'd be curious to know what he said.

[Bix]

 

If you can view the WWE HOF's 1st phase as a "company HOF", I think all of the 90s inductees are valid. No one was expecting it to become anything more than that back then. But when it reopened in 2004 and became more of a Wrestling HOF, Dudley and the other usual suspects looked more out of place. The first few classes were primarily guys with strong WWF ties (with a possible exception of Harley Race). Then they inducted some who basically had WWF connections by osmosis (Gagne, Sheik, Bockwinkel). If they kept inducting people the way they did in the 90s, probably would have Rene Goulet, Harvey Whippleman, Brooklyn Brawler and Dick Kroll in by now.

 

Was James Dudley really that prolific of an in-ring manager, or is that typical WWE revisionist (or poorly researched) history?

 

I would think the more powerful claim would be "Dudley was the first [/size]African-American[/size] to run a major United States arena." which is what wiki claims. Vince inducted him himself. Were there any fan recordings of the HOF? I know they showed highlights on TV. I'd be curious to know what he said.[/size]

1994 is the one year with a handheld recording available, so yes, and now that you've brought it up, I'm also curious about this.

 

On TV, it was always "manager extraordinaire" during the hype and post-event video packages. You're right that it's more impressive to talk about the arena job if taken at face value.

[shawmic]

1995 has a handheld available too.

[Matt D]

Of course he was also getting on the case of Jody Hamilton being in the WCW one.

 

Here's a lovely poem from the June 20, 1994 WON

 

 

Anyway, to correct this glaring error, since we can't vote Jody Hamilton out of the Wrestling Hall of Fame once inducted, we have to do the next best thing. Create a poem about him. Thanks to readers Pete Theophall and Charlie Gavinelli for coming up with this masterpiece that parents can recite to their kids after bringing them to Cooperstown, Canton or behind the cotton candy stand at DisneyWorld, or wherever WCW's corporate offices and Hall of Fame display center winds up, for the next half-century.

He's a fearsome masked figure,

All you need to do is look,

Five feet wide from every side,

More chins than a Chinese phone book.

His name is very fitting,

Many wrestlers he's made pay the price,

But it also describes his physique,

Because "Ass" appears in it twice.

When he first came out with his old mask,

I laughed so hard I thought I'd gag,

His head looked like ten pounds of beef,

Stuffed into a small two-pound bag.

Dusty Rhodes tried to pull off his mask,

He pulled and tugged it to and fro,

Over the mic, you could hear Jesse say,

"Hey Schiavone, just two chins to go!"

He would never wear a blue suit,

And stand in the street in one place,

For fear that someone by mistake,

Would put their mail right into his face.

Making a mark in the wrestling world,

That was his childhood dream,

But little did he realize,

He could do it as his own tag team.

He used to have a tag-team partner,

Twin Assassins in masked disguise,

Some fans say he had his partner for lunch one day,

And what's why he's now twice his original size.

He hollers at the ringside fans,

Calls them a bunch of creeps,

He doesn't know that they're all laughing,

Cuz' when he walks backwards he beeps.

Now Vader can pull off a suplex,

Since he's agile balanced and strong,

But to belly-to-belly The Assassin,

He'd need arms that are ten feet long.

Has anyone gotten any poems about chauffeurs ready?

[goc]

Did Dave write that poem or was it from a fan letter? I'm not sure why Jody Hamilton would get Dave so riled up. I always thought he was fairly respected in the business.

[Matt D]

Did Dave write that poem or was it from a fan letter? I'm not sure why Jody Hamilton would get Dave so riled up. I always thought he was fairly respected in the business.

 

You can kind of tell from the preceding paragraph but it was a fan letter, but actually integrated into the main WON and not relegated to the readers page. He had a few paragraphs on Hamilton first too.

[jdw]

"Thanks to readers Pete Theophall and Charlie Gavinelli for coming up with this masterpiece..."

[goc]

"Thanks to readers Pete Theophall and Charlie Gavinelli for coming up with this masterpiece..."

That's what I get for skimming. I'm still not sure where the Jody Hamilton hate comes from. Just because he was fat? I always got the sense that The Assassin gimmick drew money back in his time.

[cheapshot]

It's the first I have heard of any Jody Hamilton hatred myself too.

[Dylan Waco]

Dave converts to Henryism:

 

"Henry may be the most underutilized guy on the roster, since the only time he was pushed, a PPV main event coming off his great retirement interview segment, he did what only Punk, Lesnar and Ryback have been able to do in recent years, which is genuinely pop a “B” show number."

[tim]

Yeah, it seems like Henry is a way underrated numbers mover. His runs on Smackdown and ECW were pretty good ratings successes weren't they? WWE really missed the boat on him. I remember him being drafted to RAW in 2009, having that incredible segment with Orton where the crowd lost their shit ove him, and then promptly doing nothing for months. He's big, over and they definitely pay big money to keep him around so I don't know why they don't utilize him prominently very often.

[sek69]

The impression I get is that once WWE feels someone is injury prone they are less likely to push them in a position of prominence, with Orton being the exception that proves the rule.

[Matt D]

Dave converts to Henryism:

 

"Henry may be the most underutilized guy on the roster, since the only time he was pushed, a PPV main event coming off his great retirement interview segment, he did what only Punk, Lesnar and Ryback have been able to do in recent years, which is genuinely pop a “B” show number."

Reluctantly:

 

"Henry can be a star in limited amounts as a heel, but as a face, he’s very limited as far as how much you can do with him. But they were fine here."

[Loss]

Funny how he credits Punk as a numbers mover now, when at the time all he did was criticize his lack of drawing power.

 

And yeah, Henry was de-pushed for not working through injuries.

[rovert]

The impression I get is that once WWE feels someone is injury prone they are less likely to push them in a position of prominence, with Orton being the exception that proves the rule.

 

And he is 42.

[Matt D]

Here's the context for the Hamilton stuff, btw. It's more that the readers were complaining, it seemed.

 

 

An item which surprisingly caused some controversy among readers at Slamboree was the induction of The Assassin (Jody Hamilton) into the Hall of Fame. Hamilton, who besides being an on-again, off-again manager with no storyline given to his comings and goings with WCW and a member of the front office, is also the father of current referee Nick Patrick and brother of former headliner Larry "Missouri Mauler" Hamilton.

For a little historical perspective, The Masked Assassins (Tom Renesto & Hamilton) were a top heel tag team, who wrestled on-and-off in Georgia from the early 60s until the early 70s, holding the Georgia tag team belts on numerous occasions. When Renesto retired (the rumor Hamilton ate him is of course false) and Hamilton (known in those days as Assassin #2, although later simply as The Assassin) became a single. In the early 80s throughout the Southern regional offices, Assassin would become Assassin #1 and take younger wrestlers (Randy Culley, Roger Smith and Hercules Hernandez immediately come to mind) and reform the legendary Assassins tag team. By this point, he was mid-card wrestler and they were a mid-card tag team, and by the late 80s simply worked the smaller Georgia independent shows. My first recollection of Hamilton, who in his prime in the 60s had a tough-guy reputation, was in the 70s on his first run through Florida in his initial feud with Dusty Rhodes. As he remained throughout his career, he was an exceptional heel interview and had a knack for portraying a menacing figure. In the ring, at least by that time, he didn't do much, relying largely for a loaded head-butt gimmick as his finisher and his interviews as his heat-getter. In later years, he did even less in the ring, but always did the menacing interviews.

While he was undeniably a star and a headliner for two decades, he was not a Buddy Rogers or a Verne Gagne or a Lou Thesz or even a Wahoo McDaniel when it comes to being an international headliner and drawing card. In the Observer, I jokingly questioned the pick (jokingly because wrestling Hall of Fame's aren't meant to be taken seriously, and obviously he got the pick because's he's worked for the company for several years and he was far more of a wrestling star during his active career than Arnold Skaaland, but was hardly a Ric Flair of her era) saying that he didn't even have a poem written about him. That was an inside baseball reference to its Hall of Fame. Many have argued for decades that Joe Tinker, and to a lesser extent Johnny Evers and Frank Chance (geez, are we getting off the track or what but trust me, it makes sense at the end), who were a double-play combination for great Chicago Cubs teams from 1906-1910 are in the Hall of Fame not because they were Hall of Fame calibre players (they were considered good but not great players and Tinker, an average hitting good fielding shortstop is considered one of the most questionable choices in the Hall of Fame) but because of a famous 1910 Franklin P. Adams poem called "Tinker to Evers to Chance," a poem that is believed to have spawned the musical "Take Me Out to the Ballgame" and has remained a part of baseball folklore to this day.

[Al]

I'd actually argue in favor of Evers and maybe Tinker for the Hall, but that's way off topic.

 

James Dudley I find interesting because if he were born at a different time, he might have been a star athlete. There's clearly a lot of information missing about him though.

[Jmare007]

Funny how he credits Punk as a numbers mover now, when at the time all he did was criticize his lack of drawing power.

 

 

Yup. I remember Dave pointing out every mediocre buyrate or low ratings gain Punk was involved in when he was champion. He never talked about his merch numbers.

[Timbo Slice]

That mainly had to do with merch not being an issue at the time. It's recently become a talking point as Bryan has started getting over, with him not getting as big a push because his merch wasn't a top seller. So recent stories from the WWE brass are making it known that merch is a big talking point for a guy getting a big push, which coincided with Punk's run.

[bradhindsight]

Dave converts to Henryism:

 

"Henry may be the most underutilized guy on the roster, since the only time he was pushed, a PPV main event coming off his great retirement interview segment, he did what only Punk, Lesnar and Ryback have been able to do in recent years, which is genuinely pop a “B” show number."

 

I'm a Mark Henry guy but I'll disagree that he moved the needle with the Money in the Bank show. Similar to the Rumble, people buy in for the gimmick match(es) here - two ladder matches and potential surprise cash-ins. It was a GREAT angle but I don't think we see a bounce if this was before, say, the Payback show.

 

Which Ryback match is he referring to - the Hell in a Cell from 2012 or one of his matches with Cena from 2013?