Dave Meltzer stuff

[EricR]

Yeah, not sure why Dave didn't come right out and say Tim Sylvia since he regularly spoke of Sylvia complaining that he wins fights, doesn't get reactions, and doesn't get paid like the big champ.

[rovert]

I think that is more likely to be Hendo guys

[Indikator]

The goal of manipulation from above by fixing fights is that you want to earn money.

The goal of manipulation from above by getting your fighters characters is that you want to earn money.

While it's not a 100% copy of pro wrestling philosophy I fail to see a noteworthy difference as well.

[Strummer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mCtjsaZ3Y4...feature=related

[rovert]

So the Foley WO show on Friday, will it top Randazzo?

[kjh]

Dave Meltzer getting into a troll battle with the Cynick on the f4wonline boards is amusing. Round 1 Cynick then Dave then Cynick then Dave.

 

Meh, then on the other hand Dave and Bryan bitched and moaned that Matt Stryker didnt say some Japanese woman was the best female worker of all time on a WWE show.

Glad you listened to the show.

 

But for those who didn't, we joked (not bitched and moaned) about how funny it was that Striker went to say that Michelle McCool was the greatest in-ring performer, using that term, among women wrestlers of all-time, and in the middle of his statement, realized how riidiculous it was and quickly threw in the names of Moolah and Trish Stratus as being ahead of her.

 

Then mentioned neither Moolah nor Trish Stratus were the two greatest in-ring performers among women wrestlers of all-time either. Nobody expected him to say that Chigusa Nagayo was better than Trish Stratus, just how funny it was that he went to say McCool and in mid-sentence realized how silly it sounded.

I dont think you listened to what you said.

 

You both scoffed that Stryker would mention McCool is the best female worker of all time. First, I believe YOU have criticized guys in Strikeforce for saying "I think that puts me in the top 3 in the world" after winning a championship fight. I KNOW Bryan bitches constantly that TNA makes themselves look second rate by saying things like "we're looking to make this the #1 wrestling company". So how is this different? Why shouldnt Stryker bullshit the fans and say the CURRENT WOMENS CHAMPION is the BEST IN THE WORLD?

 

You also scoffed neither of the WWE talent mentioned are in the top 40? You do realize Stryker is speaking to and about the "WWE Universe", not the Internet Wrestling Community, of which you guys are king? Why would some women in Japan that are irrelevant to a WWE PPV come into the discussion? Its geek talk, no different than Foley bitching about what you wrote in the Observer about him.

I wasn't critical of him saying anything about a Japanese woman other than when he qualified in-ring competitor he didn't know of what he spoke.

 

I just thought it was funny he went to say McCool and then changed his tune in mid sentence.

 

But when he does say greatest in-ring of all-time, you could argue one (Stratus) and the other (Moolah) when he used the term in-ring would be talking about someone who even in her prime was never regarded as good in-ring. If he said the two greatest in-ring performers were Hogan and Randy Savage, people would say, well, Savage you can at least make a case but most would say they could name a dozen better, and if he's going to bring up Hogan's name, why use the term in-ring because he's not anywhere close. If he said greatest champions or biggest stars, totally different.

 

If Mauro Ranallo on Strikeforce were to say Robbie Lawler is the greatest middleweight fighter of all-time, that's very different from saying there's Anderson Silva, the best middleweight in the world on a show you have your own world middleweight title match on.

[kjh]

Several pages later Dave came back for round 2. Here's most of the back and forth action from this round:

 

Dave:

 

Watch a tape of the JB Angels MSG debut, and they had no television before showing up in an unadvertised guest appearance.

 

Now find one beauty queen in history who couldn't work, with no TV, get over that way to a WWE live crowd.

 

And Toyota was far better than either of those women. Toyota in her prime would have gotten over everywhere. She made Shawn Michaels look like Kane in her athletics, and was just as good in her selling.

 

In her prime, no matter where in the world she worked, I never saw her not get over. You can't say that about any of the current WWE women, because eight nights out of ten they aren't over with TV on their own shows.

CyNick:

 

Maybe.

 

But we're talking about what works here. I look at other female sports, where they are sold on their athletic ability and none of them do very well. When was the last time you watched a WNBA game?

 

So I just dont think there is an appetite for female athletes. My assumption is because they are inferior athletes. Again, with the WNBA, if you've ever seen one of their games, and then even watch a mens college game, its clear where the better athletes are. Its just a fact of life that men are superior to women when it comes to athletics.

 

I cant imagine a bunch of not so attractive women having "great" matches would get over in the US. I could be wrong, but I just dont see it happening. Its posisble you could get one of these Japanese broads who are "great" workers and use them in a heel role to make a prettier girl look good, but even that would be a stretch IMO.

 

I dont think Vince dislikes money, if he thought that would sell, he would have done it by now.

Dave:

 

The WNBA is now outdrawing the WWE men on average in the U.S., so talking about the WNBA being a positive to your argument is pretty bad when their women outdraw John Cena & Randy Orton.

CyNick:

 

LOL, oh boy.

 

The WNBA avergaes about 270K viewers on ESPN (and thats up) per game. What does WWE get for their shows?

 

An entire franchise is worth about $10 million. What is the WWE worth?

 

Yes, they do about 7K per game in attendance, but the numbers are beyond skewed. Number one, most teams have an association with an NBA team, and the NBA team uses their season ticket holders to in some cases force them to buy WNBA games. For example if you want to buy seasons tickets to an NBA team, you are forced to buy so many WNBA games. The average ticket price is also about $15 dollars.

 

So maybe you should try letting the sheep know you're using some pretty bullshit numbers to try to make a lame point about Japanese women.

 

I hope the rest of your "reporting" isnt filled with as many holes.

CyNick:

 

I'm paying for this guys reporting and he's trying to claim WNBA "outdraws" the WWE. Its utter bullshit. He just doesnt respect any of you enough to bother looking into what he says.

 

I actually thought better of him.

CyNick:

 

What is WWE's average ticket price?

 

Would you rather sell 7K tix at $15 per ticket or 6K at $35 per ticket?

 

But yeah Dave proved his point. He's the man.

 

The Observer should come with a grain of salt in every issue.

Dave:

 

Wow, did you miss the point big time here.

 

The WNBA has 17 games in the same city over four months and averages 7,000 to 8,000 per game.

 

WWE can only come to the same city 2-4 times per year because the days of coming to the same market monthly are over because their marketing shows if they come to a market more than that, they can't draw. Remember when WWE tried to run the Manhattan Center for Raw in the 90s. WNBA runs basically an average of one home game per week. WWE ran the Manhattan Center, which was set up for 1,100 fans, every three weeks. The had to start papering the second taping after selling out the first. They were down to about 800 WITH PAPER at the third taping, and eventually had to move out because they were down to 300 paid. The WWE product only survives on the road because they run so rare in each market.

 

The WNBA has 204 games within 4 months in the U.S. The WWE has about 70 dates in the U.S. and Canada in the same four month period, but they have the advantage of touring all over North America while WNBA plays the same cities and has to draw the same people over and over, which is far more difficult.

 

If the WWE toured with just their women and didn't have the men, could they sell 8,000 tickets to arenas at $15 17 times per year in any market. They couldn't even do it with their men.

 

No, the WNBA can't do better TV ratings but I specifically said drawing attendance. But my point was you acted like nobody pays to see women athletes, only sexy women, when the WWE's sexy women are bathroom breaks at the live show and channel changers as often as not on television. So even in the WWE vacuum you can't prove the point other than to bring up Sunny, who may have sold merchandise but never drew one house on her own in her life, and Sable, who was a huge TV ratings draw because she was pushed like a superstar, and blow off Chyna, who was also pushed like hell to a ridiculous level and did draw, but never close to the level of her push. And Sable's hot period was 1998, 12 years ago, when you had Steve Austin as the big star.

 

Now you're trying to say it's all women fans so it doesn't count. Why don't I say if you take out the kids, WWE couldn't even run major arenas anymore, so it shouldn't count. Hell, take away women and you get WWE's 4,800 or so last month down to probably 3,500, and again, that's in cities they run 2-4 times per year, and a lot more two than four.

 

And in the last eight years, the only women who have moved ratings consistently were Lita, Stephanie and Stratus at times and of the three, Stratus never did consistently, and none of the three have done it in many years.

 

In the last few years, the ONLY ones were in TNA, and the key draws with Gail Kim, ODB and Awesome Kong.

 

So all you've proven about 2010 is that you've got no evidence of anything in the last dozen years and at best change the goal posts every time evidence comes contrary. Oh, it's unfair, the NBA helps. And when WWE comes to town, they do all kinds of local ticket trades. And again, WWE has a lot more of an advantage with weekly television in the same time slot focusing on personalities, and right now are below 5,000 paid per house show while the WNBA has exactly one team that runs 17 times in 4 months in the same arena, that fell under that last year.

 

And yes, attractive women are more marketable and easier to sell. Nobody can deny that. But the one who got over the most in the last few years without much of a push was Gina Carano, who was girl next door cute and who John Laurinaitis wouldn't have let in the front door today because she wasn't thin enough. He also wouldn't have let Danica Patrick in the front door because her face isn't pretty enough for WWE and she's a bigger star than Carano.

 

If anything, the only evidence shows that Playboy babes who can't do their sport are less of a draw than attractive women who can do their sport better than average, and in some cases, unattractive women who can do their sport really well.

CyNick:

 

Dave, you go get a group of WNBA players to tour around the country and play games. I'll take WWE and do the same, and who do you think will have more money at the end of the year?

 

The answer to that should prove that your statement about the WWE men being outdrawn by the WNBA athletes is quite ridiculous.

Dave:

 

And you give me the WWE guys and make them run 17 times in any arena in four months, and by show five you'll be down to less than 1,000 paid and in two years they'll have to run high school gyms.

 

You give me WWE's women or the WNBA's women and run live events on tour around the country, and even with the different sized marketing staff, you know the WWE women would get KILLED.

 

Yes, I do believe WWE's men touring once in Peoria would beat a WNBA single game in Peoria. Over the course of ten events in ten weeks, WNBA will beat WWE.

 

And even if not true, that isn't evidence people will pay to see hot women who can't do their sport ahead of reasonably attractive women who can. I was comparing John Cena and Randy Orton and the whole package with WNBA teams with players far less known.

 

Tell me, how many long do you think a promotion with Michelle McCool and Melina on top running weekly in a 15,000 seat arena would last. Exactly zero shows because the first show would be canceled due to lack of ticket sales. Would it outlast the WNBA? You know better.

CyNick:

 

And you give me a promotion with the power of the NBA behind them forcing people to buy tickets, and I'll be cool with Michelle and whoever else you give me and run the same arena as many times as you want.

 

The real way to test my theory would be to run a basketball league with the good players and a competing league where pretty girls dress in skimpy clothes, dump water on each other, roll around on the floor, and do shit like that and then see if it outdraws the talented players. I think the pretty girls will win out.

Dave:

 

Wait a minute. One guy says WNBA attendance doesn't count because 75% of the fans are women. The other guy says nobody would go except NBA teams force you to buy tickets at gun point.

 

So do they only force the women to buy tickets at gun point?

 

And for the guy who talked about ticket prices, it varies by markets, but with a season ticket holders discount, usually 30%, the top ticket price at WNBA ranges from $90 to $200, although most teams have a $10 bottom. As far as the building average, in most markets it's the same or higher than WWE so that point is wrong as well.

CyNick:

 

Edit -- are you trying to say there are $200 tickets for individual games? If so, which teams?

 

Average WNBA ticket is $15

 

Some WNBA games have tickets for $1

 

Some WWE events have tickets over $600

 

WWE averages more $$$ per show, therefore they are the bigger draw. But go ahead keep spinning in circles.

 

I know from now on when I read the Observer that when you say a promotion is a bigger draw you mean they get more people in the building, doesnt matter how much the tickets cost or if the tickets were even purchased.

Dave:

 

The New York Liberty's top ticket price is $260, although if you buy a season ticket the top price is $225 per game. That's for 18 games (17 regular season, one preseason) in 4 months.

 

The average ticket price at a Liberty game at the box office is $65.

 

WWE's average ticket price depending on the market ranges from $28 to about $40.

CyNick:

 

LOL

 

Okay, if anyone cares, check out the Liberty seating arena chart, and you're see they have one row of tickets for the 3 top ticket prices. The majority of the seats are in the $10-$50 range.

 

Keep bringing the bullshit Dave.

Dave:

 

And Michelle McCool vs. Layla in Madison Square Garden on top every week would draw what???

 

11,069 per week?

 

Great point.

[KrisZ]

That is fantastic

[Loss]

That's a lot of time spent on an argument I don't care about at all.

[jdw]

Does Dave just get nothing about the WNBA Business Model?

 

The majority of its attendance is Arena Package based. Our company has season tickets to the Staples Center. That means all Lakers, Clippers, Kings *and* WNBA games. We would _never_ buy WNBA tickets on their own other than for the reason that the Staples Center forces us to buy them as part of the package.

 

The types of things excluded from the package are special events. Springsteen playing the Staples Center isn't in the package. I don't think the X-Games are in there, though I could check.

 

The WNBA's television package is *forced* on the NBA's network partners. If they had a realistic choice, ESPN/ABC wouldn't bother with it. They certainly wouldn't pay much of anything for it.

 

The WNBA doesn't draw. The NBA draws, and it's muscled the WNBA into part of their "product" base, forcing their business partners to carry it in their arenas and networks. While the WNBA division within the NBA financial statements may reflect a profit, if the NBA were to complete spin off the WNBA not only cutting off all funding but also cutting off their muscle support, the WNBA wouldn't survive more than five years without hitting a massive financial crisis.

 

The WNBA is the equiv of the ECW Brand in the WWE. If the WWE had spun that off two years ago with no funding, no production support, and no corporate backing to get a TV contract, it would have died fast unless it had a new money mark like Dixie.

 

You'd think Dave would know this. It's possible he's getting fed crap by sports reporter subscribers who either are misinformed, or too clueless to have looked into why the WNBA exists and continues to operate.

 

Think the womens professional soccer league after the famed World Cup win.

 

"Womens pro soccer league? There is one?"

 

Exactly.

 

That said, I think CyNick is twisting Dave around on a throw away line about women works. Though it is pretty funny that Dave, after denying talking about joshi puroresu, eventually goes off on JBA jag, then transitions into a Toyota lovefest.

 

John

[Dylan Waco]

The fact that Meltzer knows so little about WNBA business model but speaks about it from a position of authority really tells me a lot about his analysis which to be frank I have always been skeptical of.

[tomk]

The WNBA stuff is mindlowingly dumb. But I can't find the thread where the stuf with Raven comes from:

 

In regard to Benoit & Guererro specifically having to use steroids to get jobs with the major companies, I wouldn't have written their names in specific without proof (but did many times starting with Dynamite & Davey in the 80s) since Dynamite was open about it. I've constanty written about the situation of talented guys not being looked at when they were tearing it up and getting over worldwide, and then needing to go heavy on the juice to even get a look from the big promotions. Whether that's Benoit, Guerrero, Mysterio, Art Barr, or whomever, the idea I never covered good workers having to get on steroids or using steroids is a fallacy.

 

Raven is mad and he and I have had the discussion. He believes he should have been pushed ahead of Benoit in WWF because in his mind he was the better worker, talker and storyteller. Instead, he was a job guy and they made Benoit world champion. He was even more resentful of Malenko because he said all the boys thought Malenko was a terrible worker, and was over with everyone only because the Internet said he was a good worker. Except everyone else I talked with said Malenko was an awesome worker, just too small and dry to get past a certain level.

[jdw]

Dave's on a roll. Second double-issue week in the last three weeks.

 

John

[KrisZ]

I really dug the amateur wrestlers into pro wrestling history piece.

[Guest Slickster]

I find it interesting how in an industry filled with outdated stereotypes (and people who hold them) that Dave's (presumed) Jewish background has never been referred to by him or by other people.

 

I also find it interesting how Meltzer, Alvarez, and Keller - a (presumed) Jewish man, a half-Mexican man, and an openly gay man - are all leading journalists in the wrestling industry - an industry that has at various times traded on negative stereotypes of these groups to draw heat.

 

It surprises me that anyone other than WASP men would want to be a fan of pro wrestling, since the business generally regards anyone outside those parameters as a one-note stereotype that can be used to draw heel heat.

[El-P]

I find it interesting how in an industry filled with outdated stereotypes (and people who hold them) that Dave's (presumed) Jewish background has never been referred to by him or by other people.

 

I also find it interesting how Meltzer, Alvarez, and Keller - a (presumed) Jewish man, a half-Mexican man, and an openly gay man - are all leading journalists in the wrestling industry - an industry that has at various times traded on negative stereotypes of these groups to draw heat.

 

It surprises me that anyone other than WASP men would want to be a fan of pro wrestling, since the business generally regards anyone outside those parameters as a one-note stereotype that can be used to draw heel heat.

Interesting indeed. Although there haven't been much, if any at all, stereotype heel jewish gimmick that I remember of. Thank God for that too, I can't imagine how offensive that would have been. Worst offenders are mostly black, gay and whoever with a middle east origin (be it arab or not, wrestling doesn't make a difference anyway) stereotype. Latino's have had their share, but it was not as bad usually, and most of the Luchadores working in the US are just regarded as this special kind of masked wrestlers instead of latino stereotype, which helped. The only jew wrestler that I remember making a statement about it was Horowitz, with the music theme and the David star on his trunks, but even that was all there was about it.

[rovert]

Isnt this where someone mentions Izzy Slapowitz

[Al]

Saul Weingeroff?

[MikeCampbell]

I seem to recall reading somewhere, a long time ago, that Goldberg wanted to include the Star of David on his trunks while he was in WCW.

[Guest Slickster]

I think Eddie Creatchman is a good example.

[Ditch]

I seem to recall reading somewhere, a long time ago, that Goldberg wanted to include the Star of David on his trunks while he was in WCW.

Pretty sure that was going to be part of a 'Mossad badass' character, which if anything would make him just about the only anti-stereotype or 'positive' stereotype gimmicks ever.

[Bix]

I think Eddie Creatchman is a good example.

Leslie Floyd Creatchman too. EVIL JEW LAWYER!

[Cox]

There's definitely been times where Paul Heyman has played something of a stereotypical Jewish lawyer type. Also, there was Colt Cabana's brief run on Smackdown as Scotty Goldman, which wasn't long enough for them to get into anything too stereotypical but still.

[Bix]

You're forgetting the promotional description of Cabana's WWE.com talk show which was basically "Oy gevalt! Shmear some cream cheese on a bagel with lox! JEW! JEW!"

[Cox]

Ah, I had never seen that. I stand corrected!