Dave Meltzer stuff

[KrisZ]

Race played a huge role in the MMA boom among a lot of the fans.....I knew guys who flat out told me that they preferred MMA over boxing because there weren't any "thugs" in MMA like there were in boxing. One of my boys who is black went to the UFC show at Phillips Arena in the ATL and said that it seemed like a KKK rally because it was so white

[Eduardo]

I knew guys who flat out told me that they preferred MMA over boxing because there weren't any "thugs" in MMA like there were in boxing.

 

I heard that too.

This reminds me, one of the talking points that Zuffa constantly pushed during the boom period of 2005-2007 was how their fighters were "college educated", how Chuck Liddell had a degree in accounting. They tried to push an idea that their guys at the time (Liddell, Randy Couture, Forrest Griffin, Rich Franklin, Matt Hughes) were not like those "other" athletes you find in established sports.

[KrisZ]

People of color are huge boxing fans and it has always amazed me how MMA never tried to really market to that fanbase, I had one person in the MMA business tell me years ago that there were front office people who thought that it wouldn't help to market to them because they couldn't pay for the ticket prices.

[Dooley]

 

Why would people hate Jon Jones for being black but not hate Cormier, Rampage or Evans for being black also? If it's racism, both people would be hated for being black. I've never even seen a Jones match but upon reading his wiki, I can find minimum 3 reasons not to like him.

 

I don't really like Anderson Silva and it has nothing to do with his skin color. I just think his cockiness and showboating are not admirable.

 

Racism is alive and well though and until we start treating everyone as humans and not races, it will never end.

 

Humble black guy vs. cocky black guy "who doesn't know his place."

 

 

Who are you speaking about here?

[pantherwagner]

Race played a huge role in the MMA boom among a lot of the fans.....I knew guys who flat out told me that they preferred MMA over boxing because there weren't any "thugs" in MMA like there were in boxing. One of my boys who is black went to the UFC show at Phillips Arena in the ATL and said that it seemed like a KKK rally because it was so white

 

During the Fedor/Chuck (and Hughes/Randy) years of dominance there just about every Spanish neo-nazi message board and many got into the sport. Some became professionals. Now a lot of these men have "matured" and covered up their tattoos ... or more likely some have had a heads up about it when competing internationally.

[kjh]

 

 

Why would people hate Jon Jones for being black but not hate Cormier, Rampage or Evans for being black also? If it's racism, both people would be hated for being black. I've never even seen a Jones match but upon reading his wiki, I can find minimum 3 reasons not to like him.

 

I don't really like Anderson Silva and it has nothing to do with his skin color. I just think his cockiness and showboating are not admirable.

 

Racism is alive and well though and until we start treating everyone as humans and not races, it will never end.

 

Humble black guy vs. cocky black guy "who doesn't know his place."

 

 

Who are you speaking about here?

 

 

Daniel Cormier vs. Jon Jones, but it equally could apply to Rampage Jackson vs. Rashad Evans.

[jushin muta liger]

People of color are huge boxing fans and it has always amazed me how MMA never tried to really market to that fanbase, I had one person in the MMA business tell me years ago that there were front office people who thought that it wouldn't help to market to them because they couldn't pay for the ticket prices.

I found this very interesting because when the UFC made Rashad Evans vs Jon Jones in Atlanta , I thought they were going for a black audience. I even thought they were going for a black audience when Rashad fought Chuck at their first ever show in Atlanta.

 

I am a black male myself that likes MMA and know lots a black people who watch it casually too. It's just what you said though, they really don't market it to the black audience because they are worried about the tickets. I've been to one MMA card live and that was when Fedor lost is in Strikeforce. I knew I would never see Fedor fight in person ever and I took the opportunity. And that had a mixed crowd compared to one of my friends who went to the UFC Show in Newark (which he told me it was an unorganized mess in terms of security) who said it looked like a Devils game.

 

Now with the race part about this, Bix nailed it in terms of those dynamics with fights. When I used to subscribe to the Observer, Dave compared the trash talk of Rashad and Rampage to Ali vs Joe Frazier, which made me cringe. Ali vs Fraizer had so much of a racial dynamic than any other "classic white guy vs classic black guy" fight. When Dave said that, I was afraid that people were watching Rampage vs Rashad for that factor vs the hated rivals factor.

 

I watched the Jones vs Cormier PPV cause of the hated rivals factor but the racial factor did creep into my mind when seeing how other people were reacting.

[The Thread Killer]

 

 

 

Why would people hate Jon Jones for being black but not hate Cormier, Rampage or Evans for being black also? If it's racism, both people would be hated for being black. I've never even seen a Jones match but upon reading his wiki, I can find minimum 3 reasons not to like him.

 

I don't really like Anderson Silva and it has nothing to do with his skin color. I just think his cockiness and showboating are not admirable.

 

Racism is alive and well though and until we start treating everyone as humans and not races, it will never end.

 

Humble black guy vs. cocky black guy "who doesn't know his place."

 

 

Who are you speaking about here?

 

 

Daniel Cormier vs. Jon Jones, but it equally could apply to Rampage Jackson vs. Rashad Evans.

 

 

I could not disagree more. With Rampage and Rashad, I'm not sure which one would be considered "humble" and which one would be "cocky" since both have shown heaping helpings of both attributes in their respective careers...especially against each other.

[Bix]

 

 

 

 

Why would people hate Jon Jones for being black but not hate Cormier, Rampage or Evans for being black also? If it's racism, both people would be hated for being black. I've never even seen a Jones match but upon reading his wiki, I can find minimum 3 reasons not to like him.

 

I don't really like Anderson Silva and it has nothing to do with his skin color. I just think his cockiness and showboating are not admirable.

 

Racism is alive and well though and until we start treating everyone as humans and not races, it will never end.

 

Humble black guy vs. cocky black guy "who doesn't know his place."

 

 

Who are you speaking about here?

 

 

Daniel Cormier vs. Jon Jones, but it equally could apply to Rampage Jackson vs. Rashad Evans.

 

 

I could not disagree more. With Rampage and Rashad, I'm not sure which one would be considered "humble" and which one would be "cocky" since both have shown heaping helpings of both attributes in their respective careers...especially against each other.

 

Rampage was still an "acceptable" black archetype, though, because his appeal as a personality was doing vaguely shucking and jiving comedy.

[The Thread Killer]

Did you see the season they coached against each other on the Ultimate Fighter - which was supposed to lead up to their fight before Rampage bailed out to go and make the A-Team? There was little to nothing likeable about Rampage during that season...especially his relentless bullying of Darrill Schoonover.

 

(Well...maybe his making fun of Roy Nelson was pretty funny and likeable. But nobody likes Roy Nelson.)

 

I think you are off base and reading too much into things with this whole "humble black guy vs. cocky black guy who doesn't know his place" theory to begin with, but at least an argument can be made for the theory when it comes to Jones and Cormier.

 

I just don't see it at all when it comes to Jackson and Evans, sorry. We'll have to agree to disagree I think. Rampage is anything but a "humble black man who knows his place." He is one of the epic shit talkers of all time in MMA. If anything, Evans is the more humble and grounded of the two.

[Graham Crackers]

Did you see the season they coached against each other on the Ultimate Fighter - which was supposed to lead up to their fight before Rampage bailed out to go and make the A-Team? There was little to nothing likeable about Rampage during that season...especially his relentless bullying of Darrill Schoonover.

 

(Well...maybe his making fun of Roy Nelson was pretty funny and likeable. But nobody likes Roy Nelson.)

 

I think you are off base and reading too much into things with this whole "humble black guy vs. cocky black guy who doesn't know his place" theory to begin with, but at least an argument can be made for the theory when it comes to Jones and Cormier.

 

I just don't see it at all when it comes to Jackson and Evans, sorry. We'll have to agree to disagree I think. Rampage is anything but a "humble black man who knows his place." He is one of the epic shit talkers of all time in MMA. If anything, Evans is the more humble and grounded of the two.

As Bix said, it's not necessarily about being humble but playing to "acceptable" archetypes. Rampage's goofy personality and the "wildman" demeanor that he honed in PRIDE could be equivalent to JYD dancing, shucking, and jiving.

[iamthedoctor]

Is there any likelyhood of Dave owning any rare WWF Televised shows?

 

I know we are lacking alot of Spotlight but Im having a hard time trying to think of anything that he could have thats not out in the trading community.

[rzombie1988]

Is there any likelyhood of Dave owning any rare WWF Televised shows?

 

I know we are lacking alot of Spotlight but Im having a hard time trying to think of anything that he could have thats not out in the trading community.

I don't know what Dave could really have that no one else doesn't WWF wise. The only way would be if someone from inside was hooking him up with stuff that was taped but not aired, which doesn't seem like it would be much. I could see him having some stuff from other territories or Japan that the recorders missed.

 

Probably doesn't matter though as I'd think most of his stuff is ruined anyway from sitting in his shed, OUTSIDE, for 30 years.

[BigBadMick]

 

Is there any likelyhood of Dave owning any rare WWF Televised shows?

 

I know we are lacking alot of Spotlight but Im having a hard time trying to think of anything that he could have thats not out in the trading community.

I don't know what Dave could really have that no one else doesn't WWF wise. The only way would be if someone from inside was hooking him up with stuff that was taped but not aired, which doesn't seem like it would be much. I could see him having some stuff from other territories or Japan that the recorders missed.

 

Probably doesn't matter though as I'd think most of his stuff is ruined anyway from sitting in his shed, OUTSIDE, for 30 years.

 

I remember him talking about seeing the Bret v Tom Magee match on tape at some stage. Fairly sure he's in a minority there...

[NintendoLogic]

Let me get this straight. Fans hate Bones because he's an uppity Negro, but they like Rampage because he's.....the right kind of uppity Negro? Do you guys have any idea how ridiculous you sound?

[WingedEagle]

Yeah that's an awful, terrible way to look at it. Why can't it be left to the fact that certain people make for good babyfaces while others are natural heels? Koscheck's nuclear heat back the day wasn't because he was black but rather because he was an absurd dick on TUF. If him and Leben switch roles on TV I'm sure he'd be the babyface coming out of the show.

[Dooley]

Certain people work very hard to be offended by things that may or may not be there.

[sek69]

I don't even think its a matter of people being offended, it's more of someone who may not already be the most enlightened opinions vis-a-vie race somehow looking at MMA as a way to validate said opinions. MMA fans have (not completely unfairly) earned the rep of being largely Affliction shirt wearing bros who wouldn't be the most accepting of a guy like Jon Jones.

 

 

It's also funny that Ali-Frazier was mentioned as a comparison, when I'm pretty sure Ali expressed regret at some of the Uncle Tom style comments he made that looking back were below the belt.

[Graham Crackers]

Let me get this straight. Fans hate Bones because he's an uppity Negro, but they like Rampage because he's.....the right kind of uppity Negro? Do you guys have any idea how ridiculous you sound?

Racism is a complex beast. I don't know how many racists you have in your life but if you're white you probably know at least one or two (and that's not counting casual ignorance that grows out of privilege). Unfortunately my dad is pretty racist. Yeah, he loves a charming performer like Clifton Chenier. He loves a funny loud mouth like Red Foxx or even Muhammad Ali. Obama? It's embarrassing the shit I've heard him say.

 

I'm sorry if you're naive enough to think that racism doesn't influence the way every person of color is presented on television but unfortunately it does.

[rzombie1988]

 

 

Is there any likelyhood of Dave owning any rare WWF Televised shows?

 

I know we are lacking alot of Spotlight but Im having a hard time trying to think of anything that he could have thats not out in the trading community.

I don't know what Dave could really have that no one else doesn't WWF wise. The only way would be if someone from inside was hooking him up with stuff that was taped but not aired, which doesn't seem like it would be much. I could see him having some stuff from other territories or Japan that the recorders missed.

 

Probably doesn't matter though as I'd think most of his stuff is ruined anyway from sitting in his shed, OUTSIDE, for 30 years.

 

I remember him talking about seeing the Bret v Tom Magee match on tape at some stage. Fairly sure he's in a minority there...

 

Yeah. I do wonder though if he really has it or not. Memories can be misleading. It didn't air anywhere, and WWE doesn't seem to have it(Colt Cabana tried hard to get it), so I always doubt whether he saw it or not.

[kjh]

It might be worth reminding people what Dave Meltzer wrote about the issue of race during the Jackson vs. Evans build:

 

 

One person friendly with both noted that the animosity is real in the sense both go on about the other in social situations with no cameras present. The person noted that both have the same complaint, feeling the other is fake and represents a negative stereotype of African-Americans. He noted that the two are actually very much alike. From Evans’ standpoint, he knows Jackson isn’t stupid, or a simple street thug like he plays on television, and feels he’s playing a cool black role to get over to white people. Jackson, on the other hand, believes Evans, while college educated, came from the streets and is a phony by wearing expensive suits and talking all educated as opposed to talking the lingo he grew up with....

 

According to one person familiar with the behind-the-scenes, during an interview taped for the show, Evans said he hated that Jackson played the role of a stereotype uneducated person, noting him playing dumb. This never aired on the show. During the press conference, Evans brought the point up again, saying that he knows Jackson isn’t stupid, but plays stupid which proliferates a stereotype about African-American tough guys from the streets. What was edited off the show was Evans saying Jackson represented too many negative stereotypes about black people. UFC got cold feet about that line and cut it out, but on the conference call, something similar came out.

Evans did go in that direction in some media interviews in the past few days, even to the point of saying some UFC fans are racist (and undeniably, some are, just as in every sport). There was an issue brought up in 2008 when Evans fought Chuck Liddell in heavily African-American Atlanta, and there were virtually no African-Americans in the crowd, and Liddell was the heavy favorite. It started a myth that UFC fans are whites who boo blacks, which was a kneejerk reaction, given that Houston Alexander, Kimbo Slice and Jackson have all been huge crowd favorites against white fighters. It is expected, no matter what the make-up of the audience is, that Jackson will be the heavy crowd favorite.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Let me get this straight. Fans hate Bones because he's an uppity Negro, but they like Rampage because he's.....the right kind of uppity Negro? Do you guys have any idea how ridiculous you sound?

Racism is ridiculous period. Is it some sort of a shock that how it occurs is ridiculous as well?

[Eduardo]

 

Let me get this straight. Fans hate Bones because he's an uppity Negro, but they like Rampage because he's.....the right kind of uppity Negro? Do you guys have any idea how ridiculous you sound?

Racism is a complex beast. I don't know how many racists you have in your life but if you're white you probably know at least one or two (and that's not counting casual ignorance that grows out of privilege). Unfortunately my dad is pretty racist. Yeah, he loves a charming performer like Clifton Chenier. He loves a funny loud mouth like Red Foxx or even Muhammad Ali. Obama? It's embarrassing the shit I've heard him say.

 

I'm sorry if you're naive enough to think that racism doesn't influence the way every person of color is presented on television but unfortunately it does.

 

 

I was just watching Hot Pepper. Chenier is so great.

 

One hundred percent agree with this post. Since the Seahawks won tonight, it's easy to remember what happened last year with Richard Sherman, which was filled with fans, media, talking heads, etc. using really fucked up coded language to talk about Sherman.

[NintendoLogic]

I don't want to turn this into a RISE ABOVE RACISM pissing contest, but I've witnessed tons of racism first-hand (I don't mean coded language, I mean stuff like the n-word with expletives attached). It's been my experience that racists in the real world (not politicians trying to exploit racist sentiment, but actual racists) are pretty open about it. There's no subtlety or coding. If there really was a significant race-based backlash against Jones, it'd be easy to detect. There'd be no need to bend over backwards to find some kind of racial subtext. Just look at how the argument has shifted over the course of two pages. We've gone from "they hate a talented black man" to "they hate an arrogant black man who doesn't know his place" to "they hate a black man who doesn't fit into acceptable archetypes of arrogance." On that note, describing Muhammad Ali as the type of harmless shucking-and-jiving black man who white audiences love is a pretty brazen rewriting of history.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Ali eventually became the beloved guy who did ads for Roach Motels and played a white friendly role. But if anyone thinks it was always that way then they're nuts. The racial and society aspects of the Frazier fights are some fascinating stuff. Because as you had Ali calling Joe a gorilla and all that shit, there was also a counter culture vs the mainstream aspect.