cm funk Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 The match was taped but never shown on TV as they decided against debuting Magee at that point. It's possible that Dave got a copy of the raw unedited show straight from somebody in Titan. He's talked several times in shows over the years about the match clearly stating that he has actually watched it. If it was somebody else I'd say he probably got his brain mixed up but it's Dave who, to quote Konnan, "he's like Rainman" (and he means that as a compliment). If he says he's seen it then I'm pretty sure he has actually seen it. This and Colt Cabana's story about asking for the match has probably been blown out of proportion by some fans. He asked about it because Meltzer had talked about the match, and Bret had talked about it. It's entirely possible that it couldn't be found or wasn't even in the vault, I don't think it's the conspiracy that he makes it out to be, but it does make for a nice tall tale Or maybe Dave is just working us Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Thread Killer Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 re: The Death of WCW One of the best things about that book is how upset it made Kevin Nash and Vince Russo, who both obviously read it and didn't like how they came across. They both got so crazy defensive about it, Nash whined about it in interviews and Russo has ranted about it on more than one occassion. It does read like a blog post, but not in a bad way. I'm not claiming it's Hemingway or anything, but it's not "Scott Keith bad" either. The bottom line is that a lot of the facts in that book can't be disputed and they are presented in an often humorous way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillThompson Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 re: The Death of WCW It does read like a blog post, but not in a bad way. I'm not claiming it's Hemingway or anything, but it's not "Scott Keith bad" either. The bottom line is that a lot of the facts in that book can't be disputed and they are presented in an often humorous way. Read the original and I'd say it's on par with Keith's low quality level. Alvarez just isn't good in any capacity when it comes to talking about or writing about wrestling. Reynolds is a bit better, but he really can't write in a palatable manner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 I was disappointed when Russo had RD Reynolds on his show that he wasn't great at presenting his argument. Russo pointed out that he raised ratings by "a full half point" and asked how anything specific that he did contributed to WCW's death. The only thing RD could say is that it didn't translate to house show attendance and pay-per-views. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.S. Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 I thought the "Death of WCW" book was a fun, if informal, read. Those expecting it to be the Bible of WCW's demise, however, are bound to be disappointed. I never had such lofty expectations for the book, so I liked it for what it was. I do think the blame Vince Russo gets for WCW's death is ridiculous, though. The ship had already been sinking long before he got there. Also, he had to deal with a myriad of political bullshit, which wasn't the case as much in the WWE where he had more "protected" status. Anyone would do worse in those conditions. Plus, he left and came back, etc., so it stands to reason that a lot of his time was devoted to putting out political fires and dealing with the mess that was WCW's internal structure instead of just being able to concentrate on his job. I'm not being a blind Russo defender and apologist - a lot of his ideas were indeed bad - but his stints in the WWF and WCW are apples and oranges. In the WWF, he was given the support he needed and a fighting chance to succeed. That wasn't the case in WCW, which was already a toxic environment, with several people out to undermine him at every turn. It's like an average student: Give him help, support, and encouragement - he's bound to do better. But criticize him, write him off, and penalize him - he's only going to sink further down. "Russo killed WCW" is a lazy, simplistic, brain-dead argument that deliberately ignores the details and nuances of the situation. If that's why everyone is criticizing the book, then I agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamthedoctor Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 I thought the "Death of WCW" book was a fun, if informal, read. Those expecting it to be the Bible of WCW's demise, however, are bound to be disappointed. I never had such lofty expectations for the book, so I liked it for what it was. I do think the blame Vince Russo gets for WCW's death is ridiculous, though. The ship had already been sinking long before he got there. Also, he had to deal with a myriad of political bullshit, which wasn't the case as much in the WWE where he had more "protected" status. Anyone would do worse in those conditions. Plus, he left and came back, etc., so it stands to reason that a lot of his time was devoted to putting out political fires and dealing with the mess that was WCW's internal structure instead of just being able to concentrate on his job. I'm not being a blind Russo defender and apologist - a lot of his ideas were indeed bad - but his stints in the WWF and WCW are apples and oranges. In the WWF, he was given the support he needed and a fighting chance to succeed. That wasn't the case in WCW, which was already a toxic environment, with several people out to undermine him at every turn. It's like an average student: Give him help, support, and encouragement - he's bound to do better. But criticize him, write him off, and penalize him - he's only going to sink further down. "Russo killed WCW" is a lazy, simplistic, brain-dead argument that deliberately ignores the details and nuances of the situation. If that's why everyone is criticizing the book, then I agree. Russo didnt help but if anyone deserves the blame for killing WCW its whoever in time warner pulled the plug. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 Yes, but they did that because people were no longer watching or coming to shows. And who caused people to stop watching? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.S. Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 Yes, but they did that because people were no longer watching or coming to shows. And who caused people to stop watching? Not Russo alone, because he was in and out. It was a revolving door of bad bookers, worse ideas, and inept management. Who can forget that horrible Nitro under Kevin Sullivan's watch, which saw Hogan have a staredown with Wall, who was on top of a building from a distance no one but a superhero could see. That wasn't Russo. I'd argue that the Sullivan regime, post-Russo, was far worse than anything Russo ever did. Remember The Dog? I realize Sullivan had success previously, but that didn't translate the second (third?) time around. But I'm not blaming Sullivan either. WCW was dead in the water by then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 I'd argue that the Sullivan regime, post-Russo, was far worse than anything Russo ever did. No. Not even close. I went through this shit in 2013. Russo's two stints are the most godawful putrid shit ever (the second one just goes beyond imagination). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteF3 Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 Also, that Hogan-Wall Nitro came after Russo & Bischoff were known to be coming back. It was nothing more than a throwaway one-night program, because Sullivan knew the reset button was coming anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 Sullivan was burned out at the end for sure. He's a mix of successes and failures, more failures at the end. I don't blame it all on Russo, but I think the problem with speaking vaguely about who was responsible is that the people who truly were responsible for driving fans away have never really been held accountable for it. Russo, Bischoff, Hogan, Nash -- they've all had jobs and made money in big companies since WCW folded. Sadly, not everyone who was affected by WCW closing has. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 The Hogan vs Wall shit happened that week : http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/19237-wcws-highway-to-hell/?p=5548594 Sullivan was sent home March 22 I believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cm funk Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 Russo was one of many nails in the coffin. It was like a doctor being handed a dying patient and trying to fix it by bashing it in the face with a shovel. A retarded shovel. Could WCW have been saved in 99? I think so. Russo's stupidity didn't even give it a fighting chance. Kevin Nash's run booking was when things really went in the crapper......yet somehow it got WORSE under Russo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNLister Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 Nash's booking spell stopped people watching. Russo's spell stopped the remaining viewers spending money on the product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eduardo Posted January 24, 2015 Report Share Posted January 24, 2015 I was at the Nitro event which had Hogan-Wall as the main event. The best match that night was a dark match involving El Dandy, Silver King and Chavo Guerrero Jr. vs Three Count. It's been almost 15 years so the details have faded, but at the time, I thought it was such a cool sprint. Also, Ric Flair & Lex Luger vs Sting & Vampiro match was a blast too. The piledriver on the Gulf of Mexico finish was so awesome. But yeah, no one in the audience could see The Wall at the top of the hotel. Was so confusing live. Other than that, and few other things, that was actually a pretty fun live wrestling event. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamthedoctor Posted January 24, 2015 Report Share Posted January 24, 2015 Also, that Hogan-Wall Nitro came after Russo & Bischoff were known to be coming back. It was nothing more than a throwaway one-night program, because Sullivan knew the reset button was coming anyway. Vince McMahon also copied the same thing several years later during the Orton/Taker feud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted January 31, 2015 Report Share Posted January 31, 2015 Did Dave ever respond to the three pages of Gary Hart railing on him in his book? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 From today's update: --Stephanie McMahon and HHH met Jon Jones at the Super Bowl game yesterday. I wonder if that means someone clued them in to who Jon Jones is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jushin muta liger Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 From today's update: --Stephanie McMahon and HHH met Jon Jones at the Super Bowl game yesterday. I wonder if that means someone clued them in to who Jon Jones is. They had to know him. Jon Jones was at a Raw backstage and I believe he did the Ice Bucket Challenge with Big Show and Mark Henry. On Jones's Instagram there's pics of him and Triple H doing crotch chops. Edit: He was backstage at Summerslam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cm funk Posted February 4, 2015 Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 Also, Jon Jones' brother Chandler is a defensive end for the Patriots, and it was said that HHH and Steph were guests of the Patriots....so that may have been their connection Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted February 4, 2015 Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 This is a prime example of why WWE wants to keep their product PG Another story regarding the perception of WWE right now. Someone that I know who works in TV ad sales was working with Dodge, which had bought time on shows that underperformed in the ratings, so they were owed make good spots. The person suggested since the ads were essentially free at this point, to make good, how about moving some spots to Raw, since it draws well in the 18-49 demo, which is the demo that buys cars. The advertiser when given the suggestion first said that WWE would not be something they would ever purchase. There were reasons given, having to do with a theme WWE was doing locally that made the company more advertiser friendly in theory in that market. Still, the response was, “I do understand that but WWE doesn’t make sense for Dodge Dart. WWE is very trashy. Not, appropriate for our target.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fando Posted February 4, 2015 Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 Also the most Meltzer paragraph in the entire thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted February 4, 2015 Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 This is a prime example of why WWE wants to keep their product PG Another story regarding the perception of WWE right now. Someone that I know who works in TV ad sales was working with Dodge, which had bought time on shows that underperformed in the ratings, so they were owed make good spots. The person suggested since the ads were essentially free at this point, to make good, how about moving some spots to Raw, since it draws well in the 18-49 demo, which is the demo that buys cars. The advertiser when given the suggestion first said that WWE would not be something they would ever purchase. There were reasons given, having to do with a theme WWE was doing locally that made the company more advertiser friendly in theory in that market. Still, the response was, “I do understand that but WWE doesn’t make sense for Dodge Dart. WWE is very trashy. Not, appropriate for our target.” Does that really have to do with PG or not? Sounds like more of a question of demographics and the audience's income rather than an issue with content. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted February 5, 2015 Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 The word trashy is the dead giveaway and this is coming from Dodge who has ads on MTV trashy reality shows Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted February 5, 2015 Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 The problem with WWE is that they're still trashy when they're PG rated. If anything that's evidence to go in the other direction, because after almost a decade of being on their best behaviour, Dodge still won't advertise on Monday Night Raw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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